Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich by Dan Sharp

Zizi6785

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If it is written, it is certain. More patience to wait until someone finds them!
 

hesham

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There was a drawings in the book for them.
 

sienar

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Does that book also have the 1081-1089 and 1091-1094?
 

newsdeskdan

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The last Heinkel project was the P 1080, and it was unfinished. There are no wartime Heinkel project numbers higher than P 1080. The primary source information from Penzing makes that clear.
 

Arjen

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We have discussed this once, there are no such Heinkel projects
What ?,who said that,in the book- Ernst Heinkel: Pionier der Schnellflugzeuge, eine Biographie (Die deutsche Luftfahrt),
you will find this.
Hasan, I have that book. I can not find any mention of P.1090 or P.1095 in it. On which page did you find your description of P.1090 and P.1095? The highest P.-number mentioned in the book is P.1080.
 
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newsdeskdan

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The Heinkel project list prepared atHeinkel projects Penzing.jpg Penzing. Plenty of room for additional projects beyond P 1080... but there aren't any.
 

richard B

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We have discussed this once, there are no such Heinkel projects
What ?,who said that,in the book- Ernst Heinkel: Pionier der Schnellflugzeuge, eine Biographie (Die deutsche Luftfahrt),
you will find this.
Hasan, I have that book. I can not find any mention of P.1090 or P.1095 in it. On which page did you find your description of P.1090 and P.1095? The highest P.-number mentioned in the book is P.1080.
Hasan'ssource is the "Heinkel-Flugzeuge" at "Luftfahrtverlag Axel Zuerl" :

Numériser 2.jpegNumériser.jpeg
 

newsdeskdan

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That 'P 1095' looks remarkably like the P 1079.
 

hesham

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Oh sorry,

I have just a pages from both books,that made me confuse,and if we don't have a drawings to those Projects,
it doesn't mean they were not existed,for example,the UK Royal Air Force Museum mentioned that there was
a Project to Heinkel called P.1130,that indicated the series of Heinkel reached after the WWII to this number ?.
 

sienar

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You should be asking your self a few questions;

Why is this the only book to mention the 1090 and 1095?

Why doesnt this book, or any other for that matter, mention a 1081-1089 and 1091-1094?

Heinkel having a 1130 postwar doesnt indicate anything about a 1090 existing.
 

newsdeskdan

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It's also worth considering the chronology. Heinkel simply wasn't that prolific with its projects and every project was designed for a particular competition or to meet a particular need. We know that P 1068 dates from the autumn of 1943. P 1073 is circa July 1944 - that's six projects in, say, eight months. P 1078 was December 1944 and P 1079 was circa February 1945 with P 1080 being, according to Siegfried Günter, "shortly before the end of the war" (from the P 1073 to the P 1080 is eight projects in, say, eight or nine months).
How reasonable is it to suppose that between the P 1080 (perhaps February or March 1945?) and the end of the war Heinkel suddenly managed to squeeze in another ten or even fifteen projects? By the end of March the Soviets had almost reached Vienna and the Heinkel staff were being evacuated. Given Heinkel's rate of project progression, there wasn't time for even one more project, let alone ten or fifteen.


P 1080 1.jpgP 1080 2.jpgP 1080 3.jpg
 
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hesham

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OK my dear Dan,

but as least we know Heinkel reach to the number P.1130,of course after the war.
 

newsdeskdan

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OK my dear Dan,

but as least we know Heinkel reach to the number P.1130,of course after the war.
I have no evidence on that one way or another. If a primary source turned up indicating that this was the case I would believe it.
 

hesham

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I have no evidence on that one way or another. If a primary source turned up indicating that this was the case I would believe it.
You can ask or visit UK Royal Air Force Museum,and you will be sure.
 

hesham

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I am not thinking,they already did,they published that in early 2000s on internet,but from about 10 years they
obscured and deleted a site which indicated to all world aircraft list ?.
 
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sienar

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What was the website? It might be accessible on an archive.

Regardless Heinkel had plenty of time from 45 until they were absorbed by VFW in 1965 to do 50 projects.
 

newsdeskdan

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Unfortunately postwar German designs fall outside the scope of my research and the scope of Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich.
 

richard B

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Wurger

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Can someone please post that article from "Le Fana..."?
 

newsdeskdan

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One more sample.
Anyone's tip, what's that?

D.F.S Jabo mit Lorinantrieb , fighter OR bomber (1000 kg bomb)
The bomber was put to altitude as a Mistel .
2 versions , straight or sweepback wings .
Hats off to Le Fana, it's a quality publication. It would be interesting to see when they did it and what they did with it.
 

newsdeskdan

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I have only a copy from a friend . The model pictures were in color .
Thanks! Do you know the date of the magazine? Interesting to see that in their re-draw they seem to have missed out the attachment point for the bomb. The text appears to be correct and based entirely on the report that accompanies the picture, which makes me think that the models are modern(ish) interpretations of how it would have looked rather than contemporary DFS models.
 

richard B

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I have only a copy from a friend . The model pictures were in color .
Thanks! Do you know the date of the magazine? Interesting to see that in their re-draw they seem to have missed out the attachment point for the bomb. The text appears to be correct and based entirely on the report that accompanies the picture, which makes me think that the models are modern(ish) interpretations of how it would have looked rather than contemporary DFS models.
Sorry , I don't know the date . You are right , the models (original color pictures) are modern interpretation ...
 

hesham

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Here is the answer,I posted it from le Fana 415,

 

hesham

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We hope to see in this book;

- Arado SO-Geret a piloted version of E.377 flying bomb
- Blohm & Voss Ae M 41
- Daimler Benz Jager;
- DFS Project as in le Fana 415
- Dornier, P.144,P.149,P.150,P.151,P.153,P.155,P.202,P.209,P.215,P.217,P.222 & P.223
- Dornier Volksjäger
- DVL Rammer
- Fieseler Volksjager
- Fieseler P.19,P.22,P.29 & P.30
- Focke-Wulf Fw 259 Frontjäger
- Focke-Wulf Langstreckenbomber 1936
- Focke-Wulf Project for a carrier borne aircraft
- Focke-Wulf Stuka
- Focke-Wulf Rammjager;
- Focke-Wulf Schnellbomber 1942
- Focke Wulf Ta.153,I sent before a drawing to it
- Focke-Acheglis Fa.336
- Heinkel carrier borne aircraft Project;
- Henschel bomber Project;
- Henschel early Projects;
- Henschel last Projects in your list;
- Junkers late EF Projects,which you mentioned it before
- Klemm Kl.152 & Kl.153;
- Klemm E.63 & E.64;
- Messerschmitt Me.335 & Me.290;
- Siebel Mistel
- Weserflug Projects,which mentioned by my dear Wurger,here;
 
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newsdeskdan

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We hope to see in this book;

- Arado SO-Geret a piloted version of E.377 flying bomb
- Blohm & Voss Ae M 41
- Daimler Benz Jager;
- DFS Project as in le Fana 415
- Dornier, P.144,P.149,P.150,P.151,P.153,P.155,P.202,P.209,P.215,P.217,P.222 & P.223
- Dornier Volksjäger
- DVL Rammer
- Fieseler Volksjager
- Fieseler P.19,P.22,P.29 & P.30
- Focke-Wulf Fw 259 Frontjäger
- Focke-Wulf Langstreckenbomber 1936
- Focke-Wulf Project for a carrier borne aircraft
- Focke-Wulf Stuka
- Focke-Wulf Rammjager;
- Focke-Wulf Schnellbomber 1942
- Focke Wulf Ta.153,I sent before a drawing to it
- Focke-Acheglis Fa.336
- Heinkel carrier borne aircraft Project;
- Henschel bomber Project;
- Henschel early Projects;
- Henschel last Projects in your list;
- Junkers late EF Projects,which you mentioned it before
- Klemm Kl.152 & Kl.153;
- Klemm E.63 & E.64;
- Messerschmitt Me.335 & Me.290;
- Siebel Mistel
- Weserflug Projects,which mentioned by my dear Wurger,

That's quite a shopping list.

- Arado SO-Geret a piloted version of E.377 flying bomb - I have the E 377 project brochure and there's no piloted version mentioned in it. I've seen no evidence that this is 'real'.
- Blohm & Voss Ae M 41 - I have those same drawings but there's nothing else on it.
- Daimler Benz Jager - I believe those are just engine layout arrangements, not plans for an actual aircraft.
- DFS Project as in le Fana 415 - Yes.
- Dornier, P.144,P.149,P.150,P.151,P.153,P.155,P.202,P.209,P.215,P.217,P.222 & P.223 - I think most if not all of these were already done in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich last year.
- Dornier Volksjäger - Dornier wasn't invited to tender for the competition. But the company did apparently design a single-jet aircraft but I've not found the original material on it.
- DVL Rammer - No, nothing on that.
- Fieseler Volksjager - This would be a prize indeed. People have been searching for it for years. Sadly, I've not found it either.
- Fieseler P.19,P.22,P.29 & P.30 - No.
- Focke-Wulf Fw 259 Frontjäger - I have a surprising amount on this and might do it soon but not this time.
- Focke-Wulf Langstreckenbomber 1936 - Nothing new beyond what you've already seen.
- Focke-Wulf Project for a carrier borne aircraft - Nothing new - but there seem to have been a huge number of carrier aircraft designs around the 1936-1938 period.
- Focke-Wulf Stuka - I have the construction description on this and might do it soon.
- Focke-Wulf Rammjager - This nearly went in the 'Known unknowns' chapter of Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich. It consists of two sheets of text dated Sept. 21, 1944. No drawing.
- Focke-Wulf Schnellbomber 1942 - These fit into the Schnellbomber competition of that period, for which a huge quantity of designs were created. Beyond that I've nothing new.
- Focke Wulf Ta.153,I sent before a drawing to it - I have plenty on this and will do it soon but not this time.
- Focke-Acheglis Fa.336 - No.
- Heinkel carrier borne aircraft Project; - No.
- Henschel bomber Project; - No.
- Henschel early Projects; - No.
- Henschel last Projects in your list; - There's nothing more than I've already included in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich.
- Junkers late EF Projects,which you mentioned it before - Yes. And the previously unknown EFo designs I think I mentioned elsewhere, including what appears to be the earliest single jet aircraft design ever committed to paper (someone will no doubt prove me wrong!)
- Klemm Kl.152 & Kl.153; - No.
- Klemm E.63 & E.64; - No.
- Messerschmitt Me.335 & Me.290; - I don't believe there was ever a Me 335. Messerschmitt was given Me 334, then a few weeks later Dornier received Do 335. And the Me 290 seems unlikely.
- Siebel Mistel - I only have the same patent drawings you've already seen.
- Weserflug Projects,which mentioned by my dear Wurger, - No.
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Dan,

- for Arado SO-Geret,it was mentioned by Wikipedia
- for Messerschmitt Me.335,it was mentioned in the book,Vom Original zum Modell : Dornier Do 335
- something new for Zeppelin
Die Abteilung Flugzeugbau der Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GMBH 1942 bis 1945

- also from the book; X-planes - German Luftwaffe Prototypes 1930-1945,any thing from those ?.
 

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sienar

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Fw-259 is a development of the 159, right?
 

Basil

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I have not yet seen any description or document of the Heinkel P 1074. Does anyone have more information?
 

newsdeskdan

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I have not yet seen any description or document of the Heinkel P 1074. Does anyone have more information?
No. And the 'X-Projekte' design looks speculative to me.
 

newsdeskdan

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Thank you my dear Dan,

- for Arado SO-Geret,it was mentioned by Wikipedia
- for Messerschmitt Me.335,it was mentioned in the book,Vom Original zum Modell : Dornier Do 335
- something new for Zeppelin
Die Abteilung Flugzeugbau der Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GMBH 1942 bis 1945

- also from the book; X-planes - German Luftwaffe Prototypes 1930-1945,any thing from those ?.

- for Arado SO version: Wikipedia = rubbish.
- for Messerschmitt Me.335: I don't have that book. What context is it mentioned in?
- Zeppelin: I do have a little more on the ZSO 523 but not enough to really do anything with.
- Griehl list. I know you regularly produce this list as evidence of projects that are 'beyond secret' but really Griehl's list is just a list of projects we already know, written in an annoyingly oblique way. For example, the various 'all-weather night-fighter aircraft' are what we know as the 2-TL-Jaeger designs such as the P 215 and P 256. The Focke-Wulf 'helicopter' is the Triebfluegeljaeger, the BV 155 development is probably either the P 205 or the BV 155 C. In other cases, he just states work that was ongoing. Yes, there were design studies showing the EF 130 (although we don't have them) and the Messerschmitt 'design studies of a long-range bomber aircraft' would be the P 1108.
I'm not going to go through the whole list one by one but you can hopefully see what I mean.
 
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hesham

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My dear Dan,

- for Arado,maybe you are right
- for Messeschmitt,please see the text
- for Zeppelin,I meant those Projects
- for Griehl list,I think the FW helicopter was not Triebfluegel,and if we agree with your opinion,what about
Heinkel experimental helicopter ?
 

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newsdeskdan

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My dear Dan,

- for Arado,maybe you are right
- for Messeschmitt,please see the text
- for Zeppelin,I meant those Projects
- for Griehl list,I think the FW helicopter was not Triebfluegel,and if we agree with your opinion,what about
Heinkel experimental helicopter ?
Focke-Wulf wasn't working on any other rotor-wing aircraft. I suspect that the translation may be at fault here - Griehl probably didn't actually mean 'helicopter'. The Heinkel rotor-wing aircraft are the Lerche and Wespe. I don't have the Zeppelin rammers or that push-pull design - whatever it is.
 
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