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Zeppelin projects

Skybolt

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This is the Zeppelin project for a long-rage, high capacity land-based airliner. Only data I have are: 4 engines, 2000 hp each (actually this could be, 4 double engines, i.e. two 2000 HP-each engines coupled); structure similar to ZSO 523; hatch in the nose; upper deck arranged with 1st class accomodations. Circa 1942-3
 

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Jemiba

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.. and regarding this Zeppelin airliner, I've found an article in Flugzeug Classic10/05.
Here's another 3-view of it and the data given in that article:
span 64m, lenght 45m, height 13,50m, MTOW 100 tons, 20 tons payload,
cruising speed 365 km/h, maximum speed 425 km/h, four pairs of DB 603 engines
driving four props. loading/unloading via front and rear ramp.
It really seems to be influenced by the ZSO 523
 

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Wurger

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Hi lads :),

from Hans-Peter Dabrowski`s "Die Abteilung Flugzeugbau der Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GMBH 1942 bis 1945".

here are the different designs on the Zeppelin Rammer. The image on the left is the first design, the one in the right comes from a post-war british report. Notice the air entrances in the middle one.
Anyone knows more on Zeppilin projects other than the ZSO523, the Fliegenden Panzerfaust and the high capacity Zeppelin cargo aircraft already refered in this forum?
 

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Justo Miranda

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"Notice the air entrances in the middle one."


Not air entrances but gas exhaust (Abgasableitung) for R4M rockets
Please see Natter drawings
 

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Wurger

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Hi Justo,

mea culpa, bad translation. Thanks for posting those pics. Do you know more Zeppelin projects?
 

Wurger

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" Anyone knows more on Zeppilin projects other than the ZSO523, the Fliegenden Panzerfaust and the high capacity Zeppelin cargo aircraft already refered in this forum?"

It was already refered in the first post. Any additional project?
 

toura

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Good morning all.
What exactly was the Messerschmitt Zeppelin me.z 423 project ?
I read z.so.523 a transport .ok
I read Z.so 523 b bomber ! Do you know details ?
Thanks.
 

toura

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Hello
Still a question.
I read that Zeppelin construct some Me 323 with reference ZME 323
and that they test the plane with Jumo 211f engine 1340 hp
Is that true and what about the performances with this change.
thanks
 

Wurger

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According my source, that would be the Me323F, with a different rudder. The Me323V16 was used as the prototype, but it crashed in 30th September 1944. It would transport 11,6 tons, while the Me323E only 7,9 tons. Empty weight would be 34,2 tons, and flightweight(?) 54 tons. Armament equal to the Me323E. The first to bear a ZMe designation was the ZMe323G.
 

Jemiba

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"It was already refered in the first post."
Ooops, sorry, should have read more carefully ! :-[

Some years ago, there was an article, in an AirPictorial or Aircraft illustrated issue,
about a project for a parasite fighter from around 1919, which was drawn, I think by
Zeppelin. This aircraft was built somewhere in the '90s in the US as an experimental,
of course with modern materials and engines, so only resembling this project externally.
Still yet couldn't find it in my folders, it was on the backside of another article ...
If there's someone with a complete collection of the mentioned magazines ... ?
I think, the aircraft was called "Flitzer".
 

toura

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Hello.
I read somewhere a little article about the Zepppelin v 7 "feuerball"
studied along with the FW "Triebflugel"
It is said as a "flakmine " would have been detonated when reaching
the formation that would be intercepted.
What more ?
 

lark

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A few years ago there was also an article about the Zeppelin (or Staaken) 'Flitzer'
'The Aeroplane Monthly'.

For more see: www.flitzerbiplane.com
 

Jemiba

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" ...an article about the Zeppelin (or Staaken) 'Flitzer' "

That's it, thank you Paul ! And with the keyword "Staaken" even
Google brings some results, although I'm now not completely sure
any longer about the connection of Zeppelin to Staaken. Principally,
Staaken is a village nearby Berlin, and "Zeppelin-Staaken", at least at
first, was just the name of the Zeppelin factory based there. Later, I
think, it became a manufacturer on its own, but I don't know, if it then
was still related to Zeppelin. ???
 

toura

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HELLO
Could the ZEPPELIN STAAKEN E 4/20 (or R XVII) reffered as a project
or a prototype. IT was construct one exemple which was scraped
in respect of terms following the end of the 14/18 war ?
 

toura

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Hello
We could see the Zeppelin "Panzerfaust" parasite figther
see www.luft46.com
 

lark

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The Staaken E.4/20 civil airliner was completed 30 September 1920.
It made a number of exeedingly promising fights with testpilot Carl Kuring
at the controls.
The plane was sadly scrapped in order of the Inter-Allied Control Commission on
21 November 1922 which was convinced that the plane had military potential.
 

moin1900

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I know another project !
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3830.msg44061/topicseen.html#msg44061
Many greetings
 

hesham

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Skybolt said:
This is the Zeppelin project for a long-rage, high capacity land-based airliner. Only data I have are: 4 engines, 2000 hp each (actually this could be, 4 double engines, i.e. two 2000 HP-each engines coupled); structure similar to ZSO 523; hatch in the nose; upper deck arranged with 1st class accomodations. Circa 1942-3


Hi,


here is a two Models to Zeppilen ZSO 523 and long range airliner aircraft.


http://www.rc-network.de/magazin/artikel_06/art_06-061/art_061-01.html
 

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Jemiba

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In „Zeppelins Flieger – Das Flugzeug im Zeppelin.Konzern und in seinen Nachfolgebetrieben“, different authors,
published by the Zeppelin-Museum Friedrichshafen a twin engined passenger aircraft, designed by Adolf
Rohrbach, when he was working for the Zeppelin-Werke GmbH during 1920 is shown.
Similar in appearance to the E.4/20 it was to have a length of 10,0 m, span 19,0 m. empty weight 1.450 kg,
2.550 kg and shouild have been powred by two 120 hp engines. Construction was actually begun, but not
finished.
 

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Wurger

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Very interesting information! In that particular book I only had notice of Hans-Peter Dabrowski`s chapter on "Zeppelin Flugzeugbau GmbH" Anything more on later Rohrbach projects?
 

hesham

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Jemiba said:
In „Zeppelins Flieger – Das Flugzeug im Zeppelin.Konzern und in seinen Nachfolgebetrieben“, different authors,
published by the Zeppelin-Museum Friedrichshafen a twin engined passenger aircraft, designed by Adolf
Rohrbach, when he was working for the Zeppelin-Werke GmbH during 1920 is shown.
Similar in appearance to the E.4/20 it was to have a length of 10,0 m, span 19,0 m. empty weight 1.450 kg,
2.550 kg and shouild have been powred by two 120 hp engines. Construction was actually begun, but not
finished.


By the way my dear Jemiba,


we spoke about it here;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5823.msg47117.html#msg47117


Topics merged
 

Stargazer2006

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A very interesting article on Zeppelin's Fliegende Panzerfaust (literally, "flying armored fist"). This miniature aircraft designed in January 1945 would have been dropped by fighters over selected targets and could have reached speeds of up to 850 km/h thanks to a set of powder rockets.
 

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Jemiba

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I assume, that after being released from the tow aircraft, the hook at the extreme nose would have
been jettisoned and the two RZ 65 rocket projectiles would have been positioned one above the other
in the nose ?
The RZ 65 had no direct relation to the "Panzerfaust" (roughly the German equivalent to the US Bazooka),
but was mainly intended (and used) for the attack on ground targets. That would explain the name of
this project.
IIRC, there was a replica built in GB several years ago, shown in an article in the "Wingspan" magazine.
 

Jemiba

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Have started the diagram of the Zeppelin company history, with the result, that the
"Dornier Werke GmbH" actually is a direct offshoot of the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GmbH,
but the "Rohrbach Metallflugzeugbau GmbH" isn't, as it was founded by Adolf Rohrbach
on his own, without direct input from the Zeppelin company.
The "Zeppelin Luftschiffbau GmbH" actually was active in the field of aviation until the
end of WW II, when the Zeppelin group was completely reorganised, as ordered by the
allies. So, principally a proud example of an old aviation company, its history is over-
shadowed by the use of forced labourers during the time of WW II, where it was engaged,
amongst lots of other projects, with the production of the V 2.
 

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Jemiba

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Had another look at „Zeppelins Flieger – Das Flugzeug im Zeppelin.Konzern und in seinen Nachfolgebetrieben“, where
the "Fliegende Panzerfaust" and the "Rammer" are mentioned, too.
All data, that have survived just stem from a survey sheets written by Walter Stender in the case of the "Fliegende Panzerfaust"
and in the case the "Rammer" the designer is completely unknown. At least, it is said that those sheets contained very basic
sketches, but it is quite clear, that all drawings, that can be found today are reconstructions, based on only very scarce data !
Additionally, those names quite probably were given after the war !
For the "Fliegende Panzerfaust" not even the main purpose for this design can be taken for granted, because it is mentioned, that
the small aircraft could contain a large bladder tank for around 3000 l of fuel, that could be transferred to the towing aircraft.
So, what is mostly regarded as a rocket fighter today, may well have been intended mainly as a kind of auxiliray tank.
 

Vahe Demirjian

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What was the designation of the triplane bomber designed by Zeppelin-Staaken before the end of WW1?
 

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Here is a 3 way
 

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Jemiba

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Vahe Demirjian said:
What was the designation of the triplane bomber designed by Zeppelin-Staaken before the end of WW1?

Looked through "Zeppelins Flieger.." again, but couldn't find any mention of a triplane. As the last designs
(not finished) before the end of WW I, the R.VIII and R.IX are given, both under the design leadership of
Adolf Rohrbach. THey would have been 8 engined monoplanes with about 55 m span. The last actually built
types were the R.XVI and R.XVIa, both biplanes.
 

hesham

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Hi,


here is the Zeppelin Fliegende Panzerfaust Project,from Flugzeuge calssic
6/2000.
 

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Jemiba

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hesham said:
here is the Zeppelin Fliegende Panzerfaust Project,from Flugzeuge calssic
6/2000.

Before it leads to misunderstandings like "... actually built ! A surviving example !" or something
like that: This is just a mock-up, built using public available sources, NOT the real thing !
 

Stargazer2006

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Jemiba said:
Before it leads to misunderstandings like "... actually built ! A surviving example !" or something
like that: This is just a mock-up, built using public available sources, NOT the real thing !

Thanks a lot Jemiba for setting the record straight. My notions of German enabled me to understand it was a rebuild from plans, but it's true that it could also be pretty misleading for non-German speakers, so it's really useful to explain this.
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Jemiba for your explanation,


and excuse me,you know I don't know German language but I love Germany
aircraft and projects.
 

Jemiba

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You're welcome ! ;)

Just as a reminder and a recommendation, at the risk of getting the label "doubting Thomas" again:
For various reasons, there probably were more projects from the 1940s around of German origin,
than from most other countries. Keeping design teams busy, designers/engineers fears of being surplus
and made redundant and so on. From our definition, if coming from an aviation company, they are "true"
projects/proposals and meeting our standards, even if weird, or even if proved to be not feasible by
nowadays knowledge. Such projects could be found in other countries, too.
The problem with WW II German aviation is, that many descriptions of projects may be based on hearsay,
or post-war interrogations of people, who made unprecise, or even false claims. But as coming from official
allied sources, they often got the label "testified" ! Pretty sure, no allied "projects" found their way into literature
this way !
And, not to be forgotten, models, books an the like are a market, and markets create demands by their customers.
And, as we learned for example from the market for bio-food, in many cases the sheer mass, that is sold under this
label cannot really be produced that way !
So, no general rejection of new found German projects, of course. but please, for the above mentioned reasons in
most cases they need more care, than those from other countries. And that's exactly is, what a forum like this one is
for and well suited. Native speakers for nearly all living languages, people with vast amounts of source material and
huge amounts of knowledge and experience. Just let us use it in the best possible way ! ;)
 

hesham

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OK my dear Jemiba,


so I always ask about if this aircraft or project real or fake,to know its fact.
 

hesham

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Jemiba said:
.. and regarding this Zeppelin airliner, I've found an article in Flugzeug Classic10/05.
Here's another 3-view of it and the data given in that article:
span 64m, lenght 45m, height 13,50m, MTOW 100 tons, 20 tons payload,
cruising speed 365 km/h, maximum speed 425 km/h, four pairs of DB 603 engines
driving four props. loading/unloading via front and rear ramp.
It really seems to be influenced by the ZSO 523


My dear Jemiba,


a more clearance drawings are in Flugzeug Classic 10/2005.
 

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archipeppe

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hesham said:
Jemiba said:
.. and regarding this Zeppelin airliner, I've found an article in Flugzeug Classic10/05.
Here's another 3-view of it and the data given in that article:
span 64m, lenght 45m, height 13,50m, MTOW 100 tons, 20 tons payload,
cruising speed 365 km/h, maximum speed 425 km/h, four pairs of DB 603 engines
driving four props. loading/unloading via front and rear ramp.
It really seems to be influenced by the ZSO 523


My dear Jemiba,


a more clearance drawings are in Flugzeug Classic 10/2005.


It is my impression, or such "Zeppelin Airliner Project" did have more than a point of contact with the (more or less) contemporary Bristol Brabazon??
 

hesham

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Good point my dear Archipeppe,


specially those two designer developed in the same time.
 

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