Klemm Kl 153 "Späher" (Scout)

hesham

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Hi,


and who said the Kl-153 never used,it was twin engined light transport project,probably
that Klemm twin boom Model,frankly I don't know.


Flieger Revue Extra
 

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Wurger

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Dear Hesham,

thank so much for this great find. Although mentioned as a liaison aircraft, it is also stated as a "aufklärer", light reconnaissance aircraft. Not so sure on "ablösemuster" regarding the Fi156.
Keep pumping!!!
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Wurger,


but is it a Kl-153 or not ?.
 

Apophenia

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Well, your Flieger Revue table lists it as the Kl 153 'Späher' or 'Scout'. So, that seems to confirm the Kl 153 designation.

Wurger: Ablösemuster means something like 'release pattern' ... perhaps meaning the final, accepted form of the Fi 156?

Thanks for the correction Jens!
 

Jemiba

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Apophenia said:
Wurger: Ablösemuster means something like 'release pattern' ... perhaps meaning the final, accepted form of the Fi 156?
Sorry to correct you, but "Ablösemuster" rather means "successor" or "replacement", so it generally can
be a totally different design, even by another manufacturer.
 

Wurger

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If it means an "ersatz" for the "Storch", it gets even better. A completelly unknown aircraft to me, reaching at least the mock-up stage, and a succesor to the Fi156.
Jens, may I ask you to make one of your respected line drawings on what`s available on this plane?
 

Jemiba

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Had that idea, too, when I got the scan from fightingirish, but we'll have to live
with a lot of uncertainties, as the photo shows the mock-up from the rear quarter.
 

richard

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Just an idea : The Kl 153 and the Fi 168 could be answers to the same requirement ?
 

hesham

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Jemiba said:
Apophenia said:
Wurger: Ablösemuster means something like 'release pattern' ... perhaps meaning the final, accepted form of the Fi 156?
Sorry to correct you, but "Ablösemuster" rather means "successor" or "replacement", so it generally can
be a totally different design, even by another manufacturer.

My dear Jemiba,


it is Kl-153,my dear Richard sent to me a picture for it from front.
 

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fightingirish

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Yes, richard and hesham, thanks for posting that front view of the Klemm HK 4012 / Kl 153 "Späher". :)
The picture caption is in German, so do you have the source?
 

Wurger

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Had that idea, too, when I got the scan from fightingirish, but we'll have to livewith a lot of uncertainties, as the photo shows the mock-up from the rear quarter



No excuses now :) !
 

Stargazer2006

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You rock, guys! This is a great discovery.
 

fightingirish

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BTW, according to Andreas Parsch, the RLM designations "152" and "153" were first used by Klemm.
After disbanding these projects, these designations were transferred to Focke-Wulf.
They used them then for the Focke-Wulf Ta 152 and Focke-Wulf Ta 153 (Ta 152H).
Source: http://www.designation-systems.net/non-us/germany.html
 

Jemiba

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Wurger said:
No excuses now :) !
Ok, ok, I've got started !
Using the two photos, I've got that preliminary sketch to check dimensions and proportions.
It's quite probably not the last iteration, but If somebody notice errors, or has other ideas,
please tell me. Why should it be solely my responibility ? ;)
 

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richard

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fightingirish said:
Yes, richard and hesham, thanks for posting that front view of the Klemm HK 4012 / Kl 153 "Späher". :)
The picture caption is in German, so do you have the source?

Just a little booklet about Böblingen aerodrome , and among some well known pictures , this jewell ….
 

hesham

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Wow,amazing paint my dear Jemiba.
 

Arjen

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To me it seems the windshield is slightly more forward, I've also changed the curve to the rear fuselage and position and size of the windows.
<edit> changed the filename
 

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richard

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Great if you could put it on the Kl107/ Kl 151/ Kl152 line drawings shown by Fightingirish ...
 

Jemiba

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Arjen said:
To me it seems the windshield is slightly more forward, I've also changed the curve to the rear fuselage and position and size of the windows.
Agreed, my drawing was the result of an attempted RCCad-reconstruction and I think,
that I still have width and planview of the fuselage gondola wrong, probably effecting
those details.
Judging engine nacelles and other details, I think, the mock-up was quite a basic one,
compared for example to that of the Fi 168. About the landing gear, I think, that the
struts would have had same shape and thickness from the wing to the wheel spats.
A point still to be decided is the shape of the outer wings, but here other Klemm types
can act as pattern, I think.
 

Jemiba

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Have made the plan and front view, open to discussion, of course. On a second look, I think, the
distance between fuselage and engine nacelles should be shorter. Not sure about the section above
the windshield. Is it a transparent panel allowing better view upwards, or was the mock-up just still
not completely plated over there ?
As already mentioned, the mock-up seems not to be very detailed, at least I cannot recognise any
hinge lines on the fins or tail plane or maybe on the center wing.
Wing planform of the outer wings is roughly that of contemporary Klemm aircraft. For the engine
nacelles, maybe the nose of the Kl 35 should be used as a pattern, as it used the Hirth 506A, too,
was in large scale production and so using the cowling (slightly modified) would have eased production.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Wouldn't it be appropriate for the Kl 153 to get its own separate topic now?

topic split
 

fightingirish

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Cough, cough....
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22944.0.html
 

Jemiba

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My latest attempts to improve my CAD reconstruction lead to some changes: Narrower
center wing (as already mentioned), longer and more protruding nacelles and somewhat
shorter tailbooms.
A question from my side (could be important to me, because of using that CAD software):
Is this a full-scale, or a sub-scale mock-up ? Since I started, I thought it to be full-scale, but
I'm not quite sure anymore. Judging the room, which could be a standard workshop and the
model hung down from the ceiling, it could as well be relatively small, maybe explaining the
low level of detail.
My next step will be to try to incorporate details from other Klemm types, mainly the Kl 35,
engine cowling, prop and probably hinge lines. That means, getting deeper into the field of
speculation, but still still as "educated guess", I think, and hopefully allowing to estimate the
main dimensions.
 

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Jemiba

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I left the firm ground of those two photos of the mock-up and entered the twilight zone of
speculations. I used the engine cowling of the Kl 35 (why develop a new one ?) and followed
the shape of the wing of the Kl 107. Klemm didn't use horn balanced rudders on most of his
designs, that determined the fins. I decided, that the section above the windshield actually
was a transparent panel, because due to the very steep angle of the windshield, view upwards
would have been limited either. Not sure, that those quite fragile looking landing gear struts
wouldn't have needed additional support and if the inner wing would have carried flaps, I'm
not sure either, but as a successor to the Fi 156 good STOL performance would have been
mandatory. And other details like trim tabs, or doors surely would have been there, but shape
and position is just guess work, of course. Source grade 2
 

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Stargazer2006

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My philosophy is always as follows when someone ventures into the depiction of little-documented projects: until someone can come up with a better work based on newly-found evidence, yours is the best and most reliable plan that ever was on the subject... And so I congratulate and thank you for this!!!
 

Arjen

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Nice drawing, Jens. I am slightly puzzled that something also meant as a spotter aircraft should have this few windows, small ones too. Maybe a production version would have had this corrected.
 

Jemiba

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Yes, I was wondering about this, too. It looks much more like a light transport to me, but maybe
the mockup is just of the basic version and differences to other versions would have been similar
to those of , say the Fw 189 recce and trainer, or even attack version.
BTW, many thanks again for your great co-operation !
 

hesham

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Brilliant work my dear Jemiba.
 

Jemiba

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... and some colour !
The Kl 153 was mentioned as a successor to the Fieseler Fi 156 and although I agree
with Arjen, that at least this variant doesn't really look like an observation aircraft, I
used a Storch paint scheme from the North African theatre as a pattern here.
As a light transport or SAR aircraft it could been useful there, too.
 

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lark

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Santa Claus is early again this year... many thanks!
 

Wurger

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Great work, as usual! Many thanks for the effort.
 

Wurger

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More photographs on this interesting project:

https://hannsklemm.wordpress.com/modelle-2/zukunftsvisonen/

Mind that there is another project in the list on the right :D.
 

Jemiba

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Great indeed, will modify the drawing accordingly.
 

toura

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Hi all

On this paper I read :
Project 4012 = kl 135 ??
Is this an arror ??
 

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Wurger

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Can someone translate the handwriten specs, comparing the "Späher" with the "Storch"? That would be great! Can't wait to ser your renderings, Jens!
 

fightingirish

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IMHO the right RLM-designation is Kl 153.
The Fliegerrevue magazine is well known for its typos. :-/
 

toura

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YES § hesham, on the first line, i could see that the number
has been corrected !!
Thanks………….I Don't see before !!!
PAUL
 

hesham

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toura said:
YES § hesham, on the first line, i could see that the number
has been corrected !!
Thanks………….I Don't see before !!!
PAUL
Any service my dear Toura.
 
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