• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Various Blohm und Voss projects

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,182
Reaction score
806
Principally we have an early design for vectored thrust indeed. But I agree with
the statement "because it's German doesn't mean it was a good idea", something
that tomy opinion is too often overlooked.
 

Basil

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
239
Reaction score
40
All the projects mentioned above are brainchilds of B & V's chief engineer Dr. Richard Vogt (also see wikipedia: Dr. Richard Vogt, aircraft designer), apart from the BV-155 which was originally a Messerschmitt design but was given to B & V because of work overload where it was revised by Vogt. Vogt was a real pioneer regarding new aerodynamic concepts and one can highly recommend to read his memoirs (Weltumspannende Memoiren eines Flugzeugkonstrukteurs [Global memoirs of an aircraft designer]) where he describes his ideas behind the concepts.

The variable incidence wing was originally conceived by him for his flying boats so that the fuselage would have the correct position to the water surface during landing independent of the angle of approach of the wing. This is critical because the touch down of the tail in the water could generate a momentum to cause the aircraft nose to dive into the water during landing. The implementation of the variable incidence wing was facilitated by the typical wing construction method of Vogt - using one strong hollow steel spar for the wing which was at the same time the axle of rotation for the wing. The usage of a strong backbone steel spar was also used by him for fuselage construction for all of his late-war fighter and ground attack projects. You can see this on the P 211 and P 213 where the rear part of fuselage simply consists of a tapered steel spar which also houses the fuel; this spar is extended to the aircraft nose in form of a gibbet which forms the air intake for the jet engine / pulse engine. Even the P 215 was constructed in that way although it is less obvious.

Jemiba, I also always wondered how the "Geradbahnschuss" was to be used on the P 215; I do not know of any other German project where it is mentioned. It was not intended to replace the "Schräge Musik" because this was installed additionally at the same time (I have a copy of the original P 215 presentation for the RLM). The P 215 was to use the latest electronic gear in radar search and aiming devices (it had a large search scanner above the intake and a smaller aiming scanner below and even the infrared FUG 280 scanner) and I am rather sure the angle for the weapons would have been changed automatically according to the distance and relative speed between the P 215 and the target.
 

GTX

All hail the God of Frustration!!!
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
2,895
Reaction score
341
Website
beyondthesprues.com
Basil said:
one can highly recommend to read his memoirs (Weltumspannende Memoiren eines Flugzeugkonstrukteurs [Global memoirs of an aircraft designer]) where he describes his ideas behind the concepts.

Does anyone know if this has been translated into English?
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,182
Reaction score
806
Maybe an explanation for the "Geradbahnschuß" could be, that the P.215 would have been really fast
for its main prey, the British night bomber, so for a conventional attack with the forward firing weapons
time for aiming would have been quite short. The variable incidence wing could have slowed it down, but
the guns wouldn't have been aligned with the flight path, so a limited swivel range would have been useful.
 

Basil

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
239
Reaction score
40
GTX,
as far as I know Vogt has originally written his memoirs in English (he tells that in the intro of his book and he was living for more than 25 years in the USA then); I do not know if it was also ever published in English.

Jemiba,
the P 215 did not have a variable incidence wing. Another possibility for "Geradbahnschuß" could have been to extend the range of the very short barreled MK 108 with its low muzzle velocity by increasing the axis of the barrels in relation to the target. So the distance for opening the fire could have been extended considerably. Of course the elevation had to be calculated and adjusted automatically during the attack but this technology was ready in 1945.
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,182
Reaction score
806
Oops, sorry, got it mixed up. Probably because I was recently reading about the mostly futile attempts of the Luftwaffe at
the Eastern front and later USN/USMC to catch the Po-2 night intruders...
Were the principally similar (post war) experimental installations on the MiG 15 or Grumman Panther steplessly adjustable ?
 

Basil

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
239
Reaction score
40
Not sure about the MIG-15, but 99% sure concerning the Panther and the F-89 Scorpion.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
26,106
Reaction score
3,017
Hi,


until I remember the source of some informations about projects from many companies,
at the end of the war,Blohm and Voss had a Project of all-weather night fighter,maybe
based on P.215 or developed from it ?.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
26,106
Reaction score
3,017
hesham said:
until I remember the source of some informations about projects from many companies,
at the end of the war,Blohm and Voss had a Project of all-weather night fighter,maybe
based on P.215 or developed from it ?.

The Source;

"X-planes - German Luftwaffe Prototypes 1930-1945" by Manfred Griehl, Casemate 2012
 

Attachments

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,241
Reaction score
398
Neat! Thanks for sharing. One of my absolute favorite German projects.
 

Wurger

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
921
Reaction score
63
Wouldn`t it be great if our top Blohm & Voss contributor, Kiradog, made an appearance? All input from you is most welcome, Gary!
 

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
631
Reaction score
235
Are there any good sources or books with more details on the swept wing variant of the p211?
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
26,106
Reaction score
3,017
A good 3-view drawing to BV P.163.02,
 

Attachments

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
3,979
Reaction score
1,482
Hi
side view.jpg (82.82 kb)
bv.jpg (148.74 kb)
210.jpg
21202.jpg
are Justo Miranda drawings ;)
sources Reichdreams Nº 15 and Monogram Close-up 20
 

Attachments

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
Thanks a lot Justo-san. Especially bv.jpg is Super!!! :D
P.215.02 all weather night fighter is a very large fighter.
She had radars, AAMs and protective armament. :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9WdpX22Fjs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3geYHIazLmo
Please enjoy RC model perfect flight. ;)
Landing strategy is excellent. ;D
 

Attachments

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
These aircraft realized small, material saving, good rear view, low drag and light weight fuselage keeping normal contrl characteristic by wing tip horizontal stabilizer and wing tip vertical stabilizer(P.212.03 and P.215.02).
Wing tip horizontal stabilizer and wing tip vertical stabilizer looks like winglet.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
P.212.01 had little different wing shape.
P.212.03 shape is little strange for me.
It's possible to have normal tail horizontal and vertical stabilizer at the tail of the fuselage.
 

Attachments

Michel Van

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,509
Reaction score
490
P.212.03 design with SEVEN MK108 ?!
Firing 30 mm caliber shell makes that Jet plane a serious enemy

Although i think to spot a design fault,
The underbelly MK 108 rounds Magazine is close to Jet engine, A danger overheating the magazine ?
 

jeffb

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
146
Reaction score
47
Terrific pictures, thanks for sharing Blackkite.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
Michel Van said:
P.212.03 design with SEVEN MK108 ?!
Firing 30 mm caliber shell makes that Jet plane a serious enemy

Although i think to spot a design fault,
The underbelly MK 108 rounds Magazine is close to Jet engine, A danger overheating the magazine ?
Oh! :eek:
You mean this design?
 

Attachments

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
JeffB said:
Terrific pictures, thanks for sharing Blackkite.
Thanks. I'm very happy to know that you enjoy my post. ;)
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
Hi!
Top P.215.02 picture which you post shows two guns in shoulder turret, but I think only one gun in shoulder turret based on detail line drawing.
Bottom picture of your post must be P.212.03 attacking U.S.Army vehicle.
 

Vladimir

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Sep 22, 2015
Messages
321
Reaction score
13
blackkite said:
P.212.01 had little different wing shape.
P.212.03 shape is little strange for me.
It's possible to have normal tail horizontal and vertical stabilizer at the tail of the fuselage.
Hi, blackkite. Thanks for this post. Have You that 3-vews in better quality (hi-rez and bigger)?
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
Unfortunately I don't have that 3-viws in better quality (hi-rez and bigger).
I'm trying to get such a 3-views. BTW very hard. ;)
 

Michel Van

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,509
Reaction score
490
blackkite said:
Michel Van said:
P.212.03 design with SEVEN MK108 ?!
Firing 30 mm caliber shell makes that Jet plane a serious enemy

Although i think to spot a design fault,
The underbelly MK 108 rounds Magazine is close to Jet engine, A danger overheating the magazine ?
Oh! :eek:
You mean this design?
Yes that one
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
Hi conventional shape P.211/01. BTW fuselage tail strength is the problem.
The tortional strength of the fuselage is proportional to 4th power of a diameter. When a diameter will be 1/2, the strength falls to 1/16.
Of course you can use thick plate to recover strength, then weight increase. ;D
 

Attachments

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
631
Reaction score
235
I thought that the 211 used the same double steel tube construction of other designs, where the front tube is the intake and the rear is the tail which doubles as a fuel tank.

I've seen a drawing that shows the internals, but can't place where it is now. It could be an entirely fictional/speculative drawing.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
Like this?

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp211ii.html

"This is the steel air-intake/fuselage load-bearing structure for the BV P.211.02, which as you can see was actually built!
Left: The air intake is on the left, the engine would attach at the right end of the bottom, round pipe.
Right: On the left is the fuselage structure, with the wing attachment point clearly visible. The cockpit would be located above the rounded air intake to the right. "

Steel structure, not alminum structure.!! Alminum saving? Heavy....
 

Attachments

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
More 215 video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dzIRBYHB0U
 

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
631
Reaction score
235
blackkite said:
Like this?

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp211ii.html

"This is the steel air-intake/fuselage load-bearing structure for the BV P.211.02, which as you can see was actually built!
Left: The air intake is on the left, the engine would attach at the right end of the bottom, round pipe.
Right: On the left is the fuselage structure, with the wing attachment point clearly visible. The cockpit would be located above the rounded air intake to the right. "

Steel structure, not alminum structure.!! Alminum saving? Heavy....
Yes, exactly like that.

This same idea was also employed on other b&h designs before the 211.

Structurally its very simple and not only saves on aluminum but also man hours. It may also not be all that bad in terms of weight as its taking all the loads of the fuselage.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
Steel is stronger than alminum alloy.
So such a structure could be possible.
Thanks for lecture me. ;)
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
2,207
Oh another fin!!
 

Flitzer

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
1,004
Reaction score
22
Some profiles of some of the aircraft discussed plus a few more.
 

Attachments

Top