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Various Blohm und Voss projects

blackkite

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Cool!! Thanks a lot!!
BV P.192 had a cockpit support but DB Jaeger did not have a tail support. ???
I can't imagine how to keep DB Jaeger tail fuselage longitudinal strength. Sorry for off topic but please someone lecture me. ;)
 

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Jemiba

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blackkite said:
... I can't imagine how to keep DB Jaeger tail fuselage longitudinal strength. ...
maybe by a tubular girder, with the props rotating around, using ring shaped sprockets
and bearings ?
For the cockpit, such a girder in line with the props would have been useless, if not obstrctive.
 

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blackkite

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Thanks! My image is like this. Center gear is connected to crank shaft.
We can set longitudinal strength members at open space.
Of course one more drive shaft through center gear is needed.
Please do not care for each gear size. I show only my concept.
 

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blackkite

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Thanks a lot. Do you have any information for each gear size?
 

blackkite

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HmHm...Thanks a lot Justo-san.
You don't need long heavy tube.
Because rear fuselage have it's own logitudinal strength by longitudinal beam, girder and stressed skin.
You need two flanges which connect forward longitudinal members, rear fuselage longitudinal members and propeller part longitudinal members.

How about propeller rotational speed? Too small?
In case of Zero fighter in take off, Sakae engine revolution was 2,750r.p.m and propeller revolution was 1,600r.p.m.
Reduction ratio was 0.58.

In case of your system, it's necessary to increase intermediate shaft revolution?
Anyway I imagine that this DB concept becomes heavy system compared with front propeller system.
Why DB thought such a concept??
 

Justo Miranda

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Cantilever structure, torsion forces, pitch forces, yaw forces... ;)
 

sienar

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blackkite said:
Why DB thought such a concept??
Re-energizing the airflow along the fuselage would be one advantage

Guns can be fuselage mounted without the need for synchronization
 

blackkite

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Keep laminar flow throughout fuselage to reduce drag and realize small tail stabilizer?
Also DB fighter need forced cooling fan near front radiator and need one more drive shaft.
If she did not have a forced cooling fan, what happen was already discussed in this forum.
If only she had a midship engine same as BV P.192, I can understand this concept.
 

blackkite

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Hi BV 141
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV96hXwWN7c
 

Arjen

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Thanks for posting that :)
 

fightingirish

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Pictures of the Blohm & Voss BV 155 at Klassiker der Luftfahrt.
Link:
http://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt.de/geschichte/flugzeuge/blohm-voss-bv-155/659448/fsuebersicht
 

blackkite

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Hi ZERSTOERER(DESTROYER)!

http://www.oocities.org/asymmetrics/bvzerst.htm

"The article on this project was published in the Russian TsAGI Bulletin #26 (269) by well known Russian aviation historian V.Bakursky. The project is dated July 1944. It was designed as a two-seat zerstoerer/long range fighter/bomber powered with two tandem mounted engines (presumably DB 613, 3,900hp). Unfortunately the correct "P" number of this project is still unknown...

FOLLOW-UP It was assumed that this asymmetric layout was typical to Dr.Vogt'sief Blohm-Voss designer) projects. This decision was confirmed once more when Mr. Gary Webster shared the copy of the 1935 patent drawing by Dr.Vogt showing exactly the same aircraft scheme. Just recently Mr. Scott Lowther forwarded a copy of 1943 "Flight" article, where the original drawing appears to be copied from. The article states the project was designed by Swedish engineer Sigurd Isacson. However, it is still believed that the origin of this project belongs to German Blohm und Voss company research output."

Type: Zerstoerer / Fernjaeger / Bomber,
Engine:Two in-line engines.
Dimensions:
Wing span:16m , Length:13.1m
Weight:Loaded:9,000kg
Performance:Maximum Speed:770kph
Range:1,800km
Service Ceiling:10,700m
Armament:Two 20mm cannon (in the fuselage nose)
Six 13mm guns (in wings)
1,500kg bombs
 

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blackkite

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This design is already posted here.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3382.msg92428.html#msg92428
Radiator is located between fuselage and engine nacelle.
Engine was Napier Sabre.
 

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Stargazer2006

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blackkite said:
Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nYevpNKZOE
Not a project, and we already have other topics for this!!
 

blackkite

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Hi!
http://www.miliamperios.com/foro/aviacion-militar-f24/proyectos-inconclusos-aeronautica-alemana-t137580-120.html
Auto translation
"The Blohm und Voss P 163, designed at the beginning of 1942, was conceived as bomber into a tailspin, as ground attack and close air support aircraft. In the presentation of the project before the RLM (Ministry of the air of the Reich), it was described as «Arbeitsflugzeug» (literally "aircraft work»), an almost unknown designation until then. Its designer, the Doctor-Ingeniero Richard Vogt, described the aircraft as 'multiple capacities'. An unusual feature of the design was the disposition of the four members of the crew in two gondolas (or nacelles) located at the tips of the wings. The fuselage, with a set of conventional rudder/stabilizer, housed the engine, fuel tank and pumps of external load. The pilot sitting in the cockpit, glazed widely, along with his co-pilot/gunner in the port nacelle. The other two Gunners were located in the starboard nacelle. The provision of armament in the tips of the wings allowed, according to the factory, to obtain a wide field of fire without the obstruction of the propellers, the fuselage and tail surfaces. P 163 was a monoplane of mainly metal construction with a wing half of cantilever-type (also called «cantilever» or «ala cantilever»). The ailerons and flaps were constructed in wood. The rear of the fuselage and tail surfaces were covered with fabric in order to reduce weight. Main landing gear was retractable towards the inside of the wings and retractable back tail below the steering wheel. The two variants differed in terms of selected engines, but in both cases drove two propellers rotational three blades each with a diameter of 4.30 metres.
1) P.163.01 variant: to) length: 15,60 meters; (b) height: 6.50 meters; (c) span: 20.50 meters; (d) wing area: 55,30 m²;
(e) propulsion: 1 (a) engine Daimler-Benz DB 613 D consisting of two DB 603 to or DB 613 B (12-cylinder "V" inverted each) assembled in Bush's 24 cylinders and double configuration in "V" inverted, supercharged, indirect injection fuel special C-3, double solenoids Bosch ZM 12 CR ignition spark plug Bosch DW 250 ET, with a power of about 3,800 HP. Some prototypes were developed but never built in series;
(f) projected armament:
1) 5 (five) or 7 (seven) Mauser MG 151/20 20 mm cannons,
2) 1 (a) MK 114 (Maschinenkanone 114) 55 mm cannon. (and with a rate of 180 rounds per minute firing,
3) five rockets RZ65;
(g) estimated maximum speed: 610 Km. / h.; h) estimated service ceiling: 9.025,00 metres.
2) P.163.02 Variant : : to) length: 15,00 m; (b) height: 6.50 meters; (c) size: 20.50 meters; (d) wing area: 55,30 m²; (e) propulsion: 1 (a) engine BMW 803, development of the signature BMW as a propellant for aircraft, high power, by the system of coupling or Assembly, "back to back", of two pairs of engines BMW 801 radial, with the purpose of promoting rotational propellers. As result produced a 28-cylinder engine and 4 internal radial engines, mounted in line and attached a two, power: 4,000 HP. Some of its main features are as follows: cylinder diameter: 156 mm; piston stroke: 156 mm; displacement: 5.095 cubic inches; net weight (or "dry"): 4.130 kilograms; fuel system: injection engine; (cooling system: liquid); (f) projected armament: 5 (five) or 7 (seven) Mauser MG 151/20 20 mm cannons; (g) cargo of pumps: 2 (two) 1,000.00 kilograms each pumps mounted under the fuselage; (h) estimated maximum speed: 676 km. / h.; i) estimated service ceiling: 10.060,00 metres."

Model.
http://modelplanes.de/2015/09/
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33576&start=375&hilit=luft46

P.163.02 is slim compared with P.163.01.
Bomb carrying shape is different.(P.163.01 : Semi- embedded type)
 

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hesham

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Hi,

the Blohm and Voss P.40 was anther asymmetric Project,I hope to get its drawing.
 

Avimimus

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hesham said:
Hi,

the Blohm and Voss P.40 was anther asymmetric Project,I hope to get its drawing.
Different from the BV40 glider?
 

Wurger

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Noteworthy are the inverted gullwing and the slender booms. The engine nacelle turret remained more or less on the same site. Excellent find and thanks for sharing.
 

newsdeskdan

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Wurger said:
Noteworthy are the inverted gullwing and the slender booms. The engine nacelle turret remained more or less on the same site. Excellent find and thanks for sharing.
I kinda thought the production version nacelle turret was much further back and without the little windscreen? Looking at it more closely, the nose turret is much further forward, the cockpit glazing is different, the rear fuselage is a completely different shape and so are the fins on the ends of those slender booms. Actually, it's almost a completely different design.
 

robunos

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Funky floats, too . . . ;D

cheers,
Robin.
 

Arjen

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Wurger said:
Noteworthy are the inverted gullwing[...]
The prototype Ha 138 V1 had a gullwing, as opposed to the straight wing of the production Bv 138.
Image found here: http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugzeuge/blohm-voss/bv138.htm
 

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steelpillow

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There is nothing new under the sun, not even it seems for Richard Vogt.
The Blackburn-Duncanson tubular metal spar of 1934 also doubled as the fuel tank:
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1934/1934%20-%200802.html

See also the Saro/Blackburn Segrave thread.
 

hesham

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Until remember the source,

the Blohm and Voss P.216 was a tailless jet fighter Project.
 

steelpillow

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hesham said:
Until remember the source,

the Blohm and Voss P.216 was a tailless jet fighter Project.
The only source I know of is WhatIf modellers: http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=40948.0

I have collected a lot of sources on B&V and their recorded numbers all stop at the P 215. The P 217 was a suggested numbering for the spoof Ae607. I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but I fear that your P 216 source was probably a Russian web scraper.
 

newsdeskdan

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Here's an interesting Blohm & Voss mystery. The Hochleistungsjäger mit Jumo 222 E/F (High performance fighter with Jumo 222 E/F) requirement appears to have been issued within a week of the 1-TL-Jäger requirement in July 1944. Which I suppose, in the eyes of some, might make this a second strand to the 'Emergency fighter competition'. However, the competitors for Hochleistungsjäger are even less well known and understood than those of 1-TL-Jäger and the competition itself seems to have been superseded by later requirements.
Here's the first page from the first design comparison meeting (on Sept 18-20, 1944). Have a look at the stats for the three competitors (there were no drawings with this document). The Focke-Wulf entry looks like one of the firm's many pusher-prop Jumo 222 fighters of the period but the Blohm & Voss and Dornier designs are a mystery to me. The closest I can think of for Blohm & Voss is the P 207.01-01, which had a Jumo 222 E, but the wingspan is slightly too broad at 11m. The P 208.01-01 also had a Jumo 222 E but that's way off.
As for the Dornier, I have no ideas.
 

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Wurger

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I would love to see this paper bird in image :)!
 

newsdeskdan

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Wurger said:
I would love to see this paper bird in image :)!
The Focke-Wulf Hochleistungsjäger mit Jumo 222 E/F is pretty well known. I'm erring towards thinking that the Blohm & Voss P 207.01 might be the second design (maybe one we haven't seen before... a P 207.01-02? The four P 208s encompassed a selection of different engines, so why not the P 207?) and perhaps something like the Dornier P 247 for the third competitor? The only P 247 known at present seems to be the P 247/6, with a Jumo 213. I don't think it's inconceivable to imagine that one of the P 247/1-5 designs might fit the bill with a Jumo 222?
 

Wurger

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You are probably right, Dan, but will have to see to confirm it. How does it fit with the given wing área?
 

Motocar

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Next cutaway drawing BV P.210
 

newsdeskdan

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Wurger said:
You are probably right, Dan, but will have to see to confirm it. How does it fit with the given wing área?
Well, the Focke-Wulf design is on a different thread of this forum ('Focke-Wulf swept-wing pusher fighter with contra-rotating propellers'), the only B&V P 207.01 drawing I have is badly degraded and I'm not sure it will be possible to work out wing area from it. I've nothing on the P 247 (if it is that - the wingspan is a bit different). I'll dig the P 207.01 out later and post it up unless someone else can beat me to it?
 

hesham

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In my files,

the Dornier P.249 was a fighter Project developed from P.247,no more details are known
and I don't remember the source now ?.
 

newsdeskdan

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Blohm & Voss P 207.01-01. 'Jäger mit Jumo 222 E'. Apart from a height of 3.95m the only dimension visible is an 11m wingspan, which is about as close to the B&V Hochleistungsjäger's 10.5m as I've seen. The year on the full res version is just about visible as 1944 but the day and month is just two illegible numerals: X.X. (day.month).

NB: It occurs to me, having re-read brochures on the P 212 and P 215 that B&V sometimes gave the wingspan without including the additional span resulting from the wingtip surfaces. This would put the Jumo 222 E-powered P 208.01 just as close as the P 207.01-01, with a wingspan of 10m. Assuming this measure, the P 208.03-02 is the closest of all with a wingspan bang on 10.5m, but that was powered by a DB 603 L.
 

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Motocar

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Motocar said:
Next cutaway drawing BV P.210
Ready speculative cutaway drawing Blohm & Voss P-210, link

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,23005.msg310600.html#msg310600
 
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