• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,948
Reaction score
342
kaiserbill said:
Pioneer has a point...
Tail design is completely different, as is the main wing planform, and cockpit.
Different radar support structure..
Main landing gear relocated from engine to fuselage.. due to jet engines..etc.
Either a new design, or it's a "generic" carrier AWACS model IMHO.

As per my observation kaiserbill (although I didn't pick up on the relocation of landing gear - thank's)
Hence why I'm enquring, - just a simply speculative model to give the impression of a fully functional carrier air wing, I don't know?

Regards
Pioneer
 

JFC Fuller

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
2,609
Reaction score
980
Project 1160 (or an early 1153)

This is a really interesting model, but I am sure it is an early 1153 and not the 1160. The hull looks identical to the one seen on the published photos of the 1153 model and it has the 20 x Granit with 1 x waist cat + 1 x bow catapult configuration of that design. The island configuration does not match the 1160 one either but it obviously doesn't have the Mars-Passat fixed array radar that is on the published photos of the 1153 model. Also, the model aircraft look Mig-23 variants so probably pre-date the decision to pursue the Su-27.

I have always been curious about the claim the 1153 was significantly smaller than the 1160, visually its unconvincing, it just looks like the 1153 design deleted one of the bow catapults to allow for a full 20 cell Granit system compared to the 8 on the 1160.
 
Last edited:

Hood

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,796

kaiserd

I really should change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
1,088
Reaction score
447
Yet another Russian CVN model has been recently unveiled, the Project 11430E Lamantin by the Neveskoye Bureau.
The stats look fairly similar to the Project 2300E from 2015-17, the reason for reviving the 1143 designation sequence is unclear as this owes little to that heritige, though I suppose its a good marketing move.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...rrier_Mock_up_displayed_at_Russian_Naval_Show

90,000 ton nuclear powered aircraft carrier.
Would not suggest anyone hold their breath for that to become a reality....
 

Tzoli

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,559
Reaction score
846
The 1143 designation is indeed weird! It might be developed from the Kiev class hull and the E would mean for Export, but even Kiev's project number was 1143.1 or 11431:

Project 1143.1 (1970): Kiev class carrier
Project 1143.2 (1972): Modified Kiev class carrier Minsk
Project 1143.3 (1975): Improved Kiev class carrier Novorossiysk
Project 1143.4 (1978): Kiev Mod class carrier Baku
Project 1143.5 (1982): Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier
Project 1143.5M (2015?): Modernized Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier
Project 1143.6 (1985): Modified Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier Varyag
Project 1143.7 (1988): Ulyanovsk class nuclear-powered carrier
 

ceccherini

In war there is no substitute for victory
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
107
Reaction score
80
I've read about a pre-1991 project that reached only a very embryonic stage for a Ulyanovsk-follow on that was to be a 100k ton CVN, finally a real Soviet Nimitz counterpart. Any more information?
 

JFC Fuller

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
2,609
Reaction score
980
And don't forget the 1143.8 which seems to have been the modified second Ul'yanovsk class ship. Given the various designs considered for what became Kuznetzov it seems like a chosen design was assigned to a sequential number rather than the number being particularly reflective of the design evolution of the ship.

Attached is supposedly a model of the final Project 11780 design. Apparently, at this point senior navy officers had become concerned that the General Staff were trying to add a ski-jump to the bow so they could call it a carrier and have the amphibious ships constructed at Mikolaiv (the only Soviet yard capable of building them)* instead of the scheduled full-carriers so the twin 130mm main gun and Kinzhal units were moved to the bow to prevent this. Whether thats true or not the effect is a doubling of both the Kashtan and Kinzhal systems.

The design was probably meant to be able to carry two Naval Battalion landing teams (versus one in the Ivan Rogov class), meaning that an 11780 and an Ivan Rogov class would probably be able to lift almost an entire Naval Infantry regiment. Two 11780s certainly should have been able too. Given the largest Soviet naval infantry formations were in the Pacific facing Hokkaido, and that was their longest range amphibious objective, it seems logical to assume that 11780s would have been deployed there.

*One of the curious aspects of the post-war Soviet carrier and large surface warship programmes is their failure to develop infrastructure to build and support them, they never see to have developed a truly modern shipyard to build these vessels and they never built large dry-docks for them either. The sinking of PD50, itself acquired from Sweden in the 1980s, is a byproduct of this and that incident seems to have been a catalyst to finally create a large dry dock at Murmansk.

11780_Final.jpg
 
Last edited:

JFC Fuller

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
2,609
Reaction score
980
Somebody posted an enormous number of photos of Soviet unbuilt ship models here:
Those of the 1153 are especially interesting as they reveal 8 3S90 launchers and associated illuminators, combined with the 20 Granit launch tubes that must make it the most cruiseresque manifestation of the heavy aircraft carrying cruiser concept.
 

pegasus

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Mar 23, 2019
Messages
303
Reaction score
169
Somebody posted an enormous number of photos of Soviet unbuilt ship models here:
Those of the 1153 are especially interesting as they reveal 8 3S90 launchers and associated illuminators, combined with the 20 Granit launch tubes that must make it the most cruiseresque manifestation of the heavy aircraft carrying cruiser concept.
nice thanks great link i loved it
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
13,849
Reaction score
3,720

Hood

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,796
Given the dozens of other fancy aircraft carrier models trotted out over the past 20 years I am not going to hold my breath.
 

Firefinder

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
104
Reaction score
140
Speaking of the Kuznetsov class.

When did we find out they had those Granit missile launchers?

Cause I recentaly got The Hybrid Warship the amalgamation of Big Guns and Aircraft by RD Layman and Stephen McLaughlin.

Written in 91 it has a small section on the Russia cruiser carrier hybrids like the Kuznetsov, the named as Tbilisi in book. It basically says that it does not have those missiles.

Well we know that they do so Im wondering when we found out about those missiles publicly.
 

Spaceman

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
4
Reaction score
2
Hi Firefinder,
The earliest mention that the Kuznetsov is equipped with 12 SS-N-19 that I have found in any of my books, is in The Naval Institute Guide to the Soviet Navy - Fifth Edition by Norman Polmar. It was published in 1991 and also already mentions the at that time new and correct name of the ship as "Admiral Kuznetsov".

Its name was changed on 4th October 1990. So, it looks like the book The Hybrid Warship was already outdated when it was published.
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
13,849
Reaction score
3,720
A later joint NII-45/ TsKB-17 study was the 1959-60 30 aircraft PBIA (floating dock for fighter aviation) to avoid the term aircraft carrier!

Regarding the PBIA (h/t Dilandu):
1595083317661-png.637633
 

Tzoli

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,559
Reaction score
846
Yes but they are shown as aircraft types as size equivalents for the carrier.
Originally from here:
(you can change language at top right corner)


Air wing:
TsNII-45 project:
24 fighters, 2 AWACS aircraft, 2 helicopters. The diagram (see above) uses the silhouettes of American aircraft.
 

kaiserbill

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
378
The construction of the 2 Universal Landing Craft ( Helicopter carriers) was officially started at a ceremony today.

I haven't been following closely, and do not speak Russian, but indications out there suggest a design in the 20 000 to 25 000 ton range.
 

Tzoli

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,559
Reaction score
846
Well as France neither delivered the two Mistrals to Russia, they had to build their own to make up the numbers. Though seems the paln was from the beginnign that two were to be built in France and two in Russia. I wonder if Russia ever got their money back from France from not delivering them?
 

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,128
Reaction score
1,213
The construction of the 2 Universal Landing Craft ( Helicopter carriers) was officially started at a ceremony today.
What they are doing in this topic?
 

kaiserbill

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
378
40% of the first 2 Mistral's were built in Russia at the Baltic Zavod shipyard, and mated together with the French built sections in France.
France returned the funds to Russia, who apparently made a profit in their local currency due to a currency devaluation at the time.
I don't think France was too much out of profit, as these vessels were sold on to Egypt... but I suspect Russia has come out of this deal rather well.
They got to see the Mistral design, built their 2 Mistral sections on time and within budget, and ended up with designing and now building their own Helicopter Carriers.
From what I can gather reading around, the Mistral purchases were primarily political in nature anyway.

Anyway, it will be interesting as further details of the design become known.
I think the design is known as the type 23900.
 

kaiserbill

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
378
The construction of the 2 Universal Landing Craft ( Helicopter carriers) was officially started at a ceremony today.
What they are doing in this topic?
I looked around.
In this topic, the previous designs of this class or type of vessel (Priboy, Lavina, Projects 11780, 1120.0, 1123 .. etc) are mentioned and illustrated numerous times.
The only other thread that a search revealed was of the Vladivostok class (Mistral) which is different, so I decided against that.
Please feel free to move this to a more relevant thread.
EDIT: As these are now being constructed, I guess it belongs in the Current Military section?
 
Last edited:

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,109
Reaction score
2,980
40% of the first 2 Mistral's were built in Russia at the Baltic Zavod shipyard, and mated together with the French built sections in France.
France returned the funds to Russia, who apparently made a profit in their local currency due to a currency devaluation at the time.
I don't think France was too much out of profit, as these vessels were sold on to Egypt... but I suspect Russia has come out of this deal rather well.
They got to see the Mistral design, built their 2 Mistral sections on time and within budget, and ended up with designing and now building their own Helicopter Carriers.
From what I can gather reading around, the Mistral purchases were primarily political in nature anyway.

Anyway, it will be interesting as further details of the design become known.
I think the design is known as the type 23900.

That's an understatement. Sarkozy, just like Trump, seemed to love Vlad Putin a little too much (facepalm). And then come François "gnéééééééé-éééé" Hollande, which screwed the deal.
 

Tzoli

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,559
Reaction score
846
Stalin's Ocean Going Flet book mentions a large number of Kostromitinova proposals for the Red Navy:
1603894702454.png

The fighters described (for the previosu Project 72 carrier) as Yakovlev Yak-9K, and the bombers as Tupolev PT-M-71 types.
 

JohnR

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
790
Reaction score
231
The SWATH and trimaran design's are interesting, are there any stats available for them?
 

yak38

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
3
Reaction score
1
Stalin's Ocean Going Flet book mentions a large number of Kostromitinova proposals for the Red Navy:
View attachment 643091

The fighters described (for the previosu Project 72 carrier) as Yakovlev Yak-9K, and the bombers as Tupolev PT-M-71 types.
Does anyone have any idea what the Tupolev PT-M-71 was going to look like or it's specs?
 

Tzoli

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,559
Reaction score
846
Stalin's Ocean Going Flet book mentions a large number of Kostromitinova proposals for the Red Navy:
View attachment 643091

The fighters described (for the previosu Project 72 carrier) as Yakovlev Yak-9K, and the bombers as Tupolev PT-M-71 types.
Does anyone have any idea what the Tupolev PT-M-71 was going to look like or it's specs?
This is what I've found in the forum:
 

GTX

All hail the God of Frustration!!!
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
3,176
Reaction score
856
Website
beyondthesprues.com
Phantom and E-1 on deck?
Yes but they are shown as aircraft types as size equivalents for the carrier.
Originally from here:
(you can change language at top right corner)


Air wing:
TsNII-45 project:
24 fighters, 2 AWACS aircraft, 2 helicopters. The diagram (see above) uses the silhouettes of American aircraft.

Or were they? Just kidding... this is a FICTIONAL image created a number of years ago.
Russia-2.jpg
 

Fluff

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Messages
486
Reaction score
267
Phantom and E-1 on deck?
Yes but they are shown as aircraft types as size equivalents for the carrier.
Originally from here:
(you can change language at top right corner)


Air wing:
TsNII-45 project:
24 fighters, 2 AWACS aircraft, 2 helicopters. The diagram (see above) uses the silhouettes of American aircraft.

Or were they? Just kidding... this is a FICTIONAL image created a number of years ago.
Russia-2.jpg
Well if you have friends in Iran.....
1604088276238.png
 

Kresta II

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Sep 26, 2006
Messages
4
Reaction score
7
В книге Сталина «Ocean Going Flet» упоминается большое количество предложений Костромитиновой для Красного флота:
View attachment 643091

Истребители описывались (для предыдущего авианосца проекта 72) как Яковлев Як-9К, а бомбардировщики - как Туполев ПТ-М-71.
These projects have a slightly different timeline.
The Kostromitinov project is a pure research work that summarizes previous research, information about the Graf Zeppelin aircraft carrier, Allies aircraft carriers, and the pr.71m and pr.71B pre-WWII aircraft carrier projects. This research work was part of a more extensive study led by vice-adm. Goncharov in 1942-44 "Trends of warship development "(part 6 "Aircraft carriers").
Simultaneously with this study and based on its intermediate data in 1943-44, the design of the aircraft carrier pr. 72 is carried out in three versions: "large" I-B, II-B and "small" III-M.
Then in late 1944 - early 1945 works the "sub-commission on advanced aircraft carriers and AA defense ships" by rear-adm. Chernyshev and 19 January 1945, presented a report on two types of required aircraft carriers: fleet carrier of 30,000 tons (based on options pr. 72 in its "larger" variants I-B and II-B) and light carrier of 15,000 tons.
After that, the commission, again under the leadership of vice-adm. Goncharov, worked out in detail the options for aircraft carriers, including new types - escort and heavy aircraft carriers. A total of 33 variants were investigated - 24 "convoy" (escort), 3 light, 4 "squadron" (fleet) and 2 heavy aircraft carriers, and in the final report of March 30, 1945, finally selected two variants of escort aircraft carriers (var. 2 and var. 14), two variants of light aircraft carriers (var. 26 and var. 27), one variant of a fleet aircraft carrier (var. 31) and one variant of a heavy aircraft carrier (var. 33)
 
Last edited:

northerndancer2000

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
May 23, 2011
Messages
47
Reaction score
2
Yes but they are shown as aircraft types as size equivalents for the carrier.
Originally from here:
(you can change language at top right corner)


Air wing:
TsNII-45 project:
24 fighters, 2 AWACS aircraft, 2 helicopters. The diagram (see above) uses the silhouettes of American aircraft.
Thank yo, everyone else here, very much for the fascinating information. I had not even heard of most of these designs.

The AEW silhouette appears to be a Hawkeye with the radar dome of a Willie Fudd which is a somewhat interesting combination.
 

Akaloso Dudu

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
17
Reaction score
30
These hypotetical hybrid designs were presented in the Time Life Magazine in December 17 1945. Pages 91 to 94 under the title 'The Russian Navy is Reborn'.
The bigger one had 120000 tons, eight 18in guns and 16 rocket launchers. The smaller one had 6 rocket launchers. No other information was given.

1607046663693.png
The pictures bellow show a little more detail of these designs.

1607046827734.png

1607046871232.png
 

Iron Felix

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
305
Reaction score
665
Matsyevich 1910 aircraft carrier, based on "Admiral Lazarev" armour vessel (1872, 3943 ton, 79.9 m long, 10.5 knots with old machines), 25 planes:
avik1-650x293.jpg
Kanokotin 1910-1911 aircraft carrier (based on Matsyevich project), 10 planes ("Blerio"):
avik3-650x299.jpg
Project of I. K. Grigorovich, 1916 - 5000 ton, approved by Nicholas II. Also, Nicholas II suggested increasing to 10-12 000 ton, and built four ships. It was decided to buy ships from the United States to convert them into aircraft carriers. The project "died" after the February revolution.
Also, in 1916-17 projected helicopter carrier.
There was an electric catapult in Matsyevich project, "lenght no more 35 foot (10.7 m), motor no more 20 HP". I do not know about catapults in Grigorovich's project, but it was supposed to use them on new battleships (from the construction of which Nicholas II did not refuse; for the "battleship 1915" in 1915-16, metal procurement began).
Project of rebuilding of "Ismail" battlecruiser to aircraft carrier, 1925:
IMG_20201204_100528.jpg
20-22 000 ton, 27 knots, 8x180 mm guns, 8x102 mm guns, 20x AA guns, 12 torpedo bombers, 12 fighters, 6 reconnaissance planes, 5 spotters, maximum to 50 planes, armour - belt 237 mm (standart) or 76 mm (3"), flyght deck - 51-64 mm (2-2.5").
 
Top