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Me 262 - Projects, Pre-Projects And Variants

Jemiba

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What do you mean with "luft'46" ?
It wasn't a project, but an attempt to create an aircraft similar to the P-38 Droop Snoot, and the document you've
attached gives its role as "Leitflugzeug" (leading aircraft), intended to achieve a high accuracy for horizontal bombing,
as it was fitted with a Lotfe bombing sight.

Perhaps you could mention the sources of those photos/facsimiles ? Please remember, it's mandatory anyway ! ;)
That document given the weights mentions the lower part of the Mistel as "Stoffträger" (from "Sprengstoffträger", carrier
of explosives) and somehow brings us back to the discussion we had here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,23397.0.html
In post #49 there, I tried to sum up the weight of explosives, the fuselage could have been filled with and the results are
quite similar. And so I really doubt the feasibility of that weight of explosives, because of the flyability of the resulting Mistel !
 

sgeorges4

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With luft'46,I want to say that this variant could have been produce if the war should go on.
 

Jemiba

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Ok, and with "...Please remember, it's mandatory anyway", I wanted to say:
"Please tell us the sources !"
 

sienar

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Silencer1 said:
Hello, sienar!

sienar said:
Interesting bit of research. From this pdf with lots of other neat info http://www.dglr.de/literatur/publikationen/DGLR_Hamel-JHV_2006-Vortrag.pdf
Thanks for sharin - the story about supersonic (and other) researches in Germany is intersting.
I wonder, how the additional fairings near engines' pods could be threated as "area rule" measure.
The cross section are only increased in the zone, where the area was already large.

Any suggestions?
 

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sgeorges4

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Do you have any factory document or report regarding the Me P1099 night fighters?
Thank!
 

sgeorges4

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any real drawing or original document on the HG I variant?
 

sgeorges4

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some prototype nose:



http://www.stormbirds.com/warbirds/variants262a1aU1.htm
 

hesham

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It's from; Die Deutsche Luftruestung 1933-1945 - Vol.3 - Henschel-Messerschmitt (Bernard&Graefe)
 

Imperialist

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Hi Dan, any further info on gun placement for the eight MK 108's for the Abfangjager III (drawings, diagrams, etc)?
 

sgeorges4

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two or one more MK 108 on the jäger und Jabo?
 

Imperialist

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While I did notice the placement of up to a couple of extra guns in the nose (a la A-1a/U1 and U3), I'm curious about the remaining few guns. I can only imagine them either being crammed in the nose (somehow :p), in a Rustatz pack, or even in a Schrage Musik placement :eek:...
 

newsdeskdan

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Imperialist said:
While I did notice the placement of up to a couple of extra guns in the nose (a la A-1a/U1 and U3), I'm curious about the remaining few guns. I can only imagine them either being crammed in the nose (somehow :p), in a Rustatz pack, or even in a Schrage Musik placement :eek:...
All six appear to all be crammed into the nose with the barrels of the front two sticking out of the nose cone. Here's the full sheet, from the first report, with another sheet from a different report showing the same drawing in lower quality but with date and drawing number details.
 

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sgeorges4

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Are those "Mohr" drawing based on real project or not?
 

newsdeskdan

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Imperialist said:
Hi Dan, any further info on gun placement for the eight MK 108's for the Abfangjager III (drawings, diagrams, etc)?
The Interzeptor III drawing only shows the same six-gun arrangement as the Jager u. Jabo. I don't know why Nowarra uses 'Abfangjager' - it means the same thing, as far as I can tell, but the original reports and drawings all say 'Interzeptor'.
 

newsdeskdan

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sgeorges4 said:
Are those "Mohr" drawing based on real project or not?
Do you mean the turboprop drawings? Arado definitely considered PTL for the Ar 234 - I have a drawing somewhere showing how it would fit into the wing - but I've no knowledge of the Me 262 with PTL. It's in Smith & Creek though, I think, so it's probably real.
 

Foo Fighter

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I have seen a few images of a 262 with turboprops but the undercarriage looked to have an issue with prop clearance.
 

sgeorges4

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Dou have something on the me 262 A2a/U1(a A1a with a TSA-2A),when I'm trying to research thing about it,google see that:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-ab&biw=1680&bih=925&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=c_-fW8K_OaaelwThlo6QCQ&q=me+262+A2%2FU1&oq=me+262+A2%2FU1&gs_l=img.3...3156.3464.0.3606.2.2.0.0.0.0.94.186.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.img..0.0.0....0.1C35MdBTt6I#imgrc=tOwoJubGMP5L8M:
 

sgeorges4

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This one seem to be in only one of my sourcee:

 

Foo Fighter

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There is a certain amount of disconnect for me with many of these 'projects', there seems to be little or no advantage to them. Would there really be any point in awarding scant resources into their development?
 

Grey Havoc

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Apart from the increasing chaos that Nazi Germany's bureaucracy was in, some of those projects were likely part of efforts by designers to avoid their personnel (or even themselves in some cases) being drafted and sent to the Eastern Front.
 

newsdeskdan

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Grey Havoc said:
Apart from the increasing chaos that Nazi Germany's bureaucracy was in, some of those projects were likely part of efforts by designers to avoid their personnel (or even themselves in some cases) being drafted and sent to the Eastern Front.
I'm not sure there was ever any danger of the designers themselves being sent to the Eastern Front. There is, however, hard evidence in the form of company memos which shows that Heinkel re-started work on the 'Julia' mock-up in February 1945 in order to keep workshop staff from being drafted.
 

newsdeskdan

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Foo Fighter said:
There is a certain amount of disconnect for me with many of these 'projects', there seems to be little or no advantage to them. Would there really be any point in awarding scant resources into their development?
Depends which projects you mean. Some of them, such as the Do 335 (approved for development in Jan 43), seem with hindsight like a monumental waste of time and resources but if D-Day hadn't happened and German ground forces hadn't been pulled in so many different directions they might have staved off the Soviets long enough for it to come into service and make a real difference.
Many later projects were actually an attempt to make better use of scant resources. For example, the idea of the 1-TL-Jager was to replace the Me 262 with something that only needed one precious turbojet but could do the same or better in combat. And the idea of Volksjager was to get something into production with slightly better performance than existing prop aircraft that required only minimal resources to build. These seem like vaguely sensible programmes, if you assume that they thought the war would just carry on into 1946 somehow. Even the Objektschutzer (Natter, Walli, Julia, Ju 248 etc.) made sense to a degree as a less resource-intensive replacement for the Me 163.
Other projects, such as Pabst's Focke-Wulf Triebflugeljager are less easy to justify except to say that very little resource actually ended up being expended on them anyway.
Before the war, Germany had the largest aviation R&D infrastructure the world had ever seen and it only got larger as the war progressed. I can't help but think that they deluded themselves, given all this research in progress, that some of it would eventually turn out to be that 'magic bullet' tech that would give them a definitive edge... but it didn't, thankfully.
 

Foo Fighter

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Perhaps I should express myself better, it is my first language after all. What I mean is that with resources drying up and even without the wood and glue issues that caused structural failures in the TA-154 and HE 162, the project oversight would have been a monumental obstacle. Many times I have seen records indicating that projects that were promoted being culled for diverse reasons including the political desirability or not of those involved.

How some of those projects were even allowed time escapes me. The HE 162 could have been better used but took too long to get into service. I get my belief in this from the comments of Eric Brown who stated that it could have given the Mig 15 a run for its money.

Not just Germany though, projects the world over were missed out on. The Martin Baker product line slipped for various reasons too etc, et al.
 

newsdeskdan

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Foo Fighter said:
Perhaps I should express myself better, it is my first language after all. What I mean is that with resources drying up and even without the wood and glue issues that caused structural failures in the TA-154 and HE 162, the project oversight would have been a monumental obstacle. Many times I have seen records indicating that projects that were promoted being culled for diverse reasons including the political desirability or not of those involved.

How some of those projects were even allowed time escapes me. The HE 162 could have been better used but took too long to get into service. I get my belief in this from the comments of Eric Brown who stated that it could have given the Mig 15 a run for its money.

Not just Germany though, projects the world over were missed out on. The Martin Baker product line slipped for various reasons too etc, et al.
I think they got the He 162 into service as fast as they possibly could have, but by the time they even came up with the Volksjager idea it was already way too late. I can't think of any projects that were culled/promoted on the basis of the political desirability of those involved - all the German manufacturers were firmly embedded in the Nazi structure. I think it was more often to do with the likelihood that the project in question was actually feasible. A large part of why the Do 335 went ahead was the severe lack of capacity at Messerschmitt to get the Me 109 Zw made. Something you also see sometimes is projects being given the go-ahead by those with authority but a less-than-firm grasp of what they were agreeing to. Goering agreed to fund the 8-229 and P 11 because he was taken in by those pitching the projects - the (apparently) charming Walter Horten and the famous Alexander Lippisch. Those projects really were a fabulously unnecessary waste of time.
Himmler seems to have backed the Natter because he thought it was the right project at the right time. Another complete waste of time and effort that the RLM's technical specialists did their best to oppose. If you look at something like Luft46.com, and you see all the different projects laid out right there at once, it does look as though the German aviation industry was completely bonkers. But if you spread them out chronologically over the full length of the war, and group them according to different firms' attempts to meet a particular spec, it's evident (at least to me) that the Germans were mostly just doing what the British, Americans and Soviets were doing - trying to produce the best technical solutions to meet the particular needs of their air force at any given time (with a few exceptions such as the 8-229 etc.).
 

sgeorges4

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What kind of radar equip the nose without antenna(sorry for my my english on this one) , is this towed tank on the rear real or not I also ask the same for the Schräge music:

Thanks for your answer!
 

sgeorges4

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just found this one:

http://www.fliegerrevuex.aero/x-projekte-me-262-langrumpf/
 

athpilot

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Good find! I´ve never seen a Me 262 "Langrumpf" (long fuselage)
 

sgeorges4

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why original nose is dashed for the project under the first one?

and can anyone give a larger picture of those project(I have some problem for reading what's write on them)?
Thanks!
 

sgeorges4

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So this was a real B2a concept?! :eek:

And I also want to know if those tank on the wing where droppable or not:

Thanks for your answer,It will be useful for my futur me 262 model(maybe some frome hobby boss? ;) )
 
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