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German high-powered piston engined fighters

Wurger

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Hi lads,

I wonder if you could shed some light on this ones. Any hints? Enjoy.

The first picture was sent to me by Justo some time ago. The second one is taken from Manfred Griehl`s "Deutsche Flugzeugbawaffnung bis 1945", Motorbuch verlag, which I strongly recommend.
 

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Jemiba

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The second picture was shown in LUFTFAHRT International N°5, too. It is described
as one of a series of installation of a MK 412 55mm gun in an aircraft fitted with
a DB 613 engine. The MK 412 was originally intended for aircraft withe the DB 609,
but at the time, these calculations were made , no DB 609 was available, so it
was substituted with the DB 613. It is explicitly noted, that the shown profile
isn't actually an aircraft project, but just an example, what a combination of this engine
and weapon could look like !
 

Wurger

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hi Jemiba,

can you please state the origin of that information in "Luftfahrt International"? Is it from Daimler-Benz? Bye.
 

Jemiba

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The source stated by the article, is Daimler Benz Werk 60, Kntruktionsbericht.K21
from 21.01.1944 ( Daimler Benz factory 60, construction report K21 from 21st
january 1944).
Attached are three other proposals for fitting the DB613 with a MK 412:
- a long shaft and the pilot placed forward and annular cooler
- a long shaft and gear, in front of the pilot, the gun firung through the shaft
of the gear, cooler under the nose
- a long twin shaft and ventral cooler
 

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Wurger

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Hi Jemiba,

exxxxcellent stuff. Thanks for posting this. On the first picture, Justo said to me it wouldn`t be Daimler-Benz fighter project on account of its straightforwardness. Also a supersized He100 or a DB 609 engined He P.1076 would clash with the fuselage cross section, oval in this sketch. Despite this, Mr. Griehls sent me a laconic answer on this subject when faced with it: it is ( at least to him ) a Heinkel`s P.1076 with DB609. If it is confirmed, guys, please add another distinct engine, making four, to that particular project. Bye.
 

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I do not have this latest book from Herr Griehl. My opinion of his previous works is some good primary source material is mixed with opinions, myths and non-information in a manner that makes them hard to separate. Based on this experience, my recommendation is to use material from his books with great care unless you have alternate confirming sources.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob
 

Jemiba

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Again: The article, which seems to be based closely on the Daimler Benz report,
says, that the drawings are just showing several possible layouts for this engine/
gun combination, NOT a specific aircraft. It's from 1974, and it is said that, these
drawings "were interpreted by some authors as Fw 190 projects, due to the
similarity of the silhouettes, but that's wrong".
To my opinion, the LUFTFAHRT International series was quite reliable, as mostly based
on original documents.
 

Wurger

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Hi Jemiba and Artie Bob,

many thanks for your input, but what do you think about the first picture, the project sporting the DB609? I appreciate all comments. Bye.
 

Jemiba

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To my opinion, it's just a comparison of the cockpit view, with the engine installed
"standing" and or up-side-down. Around the profile of the DB 609 is drawn the "minimum"
cowling and view straight ahead seems to be more or less the same for both layouts, but
for the downward/forward view there seem to be differences.
I'm absolutely not convinced, that these drawings show a specific type of aircraft !
 

Wurger

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I tend to agree with you. Acknowledged. Thanks for your entries.
 

Artie Bob

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I may have to dig a bit, but there are actually a series of Focke-Wulf drawings showing the 8-190 adpted to different late war engines. i will post if they can be located.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob
 

Wurger

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hello Artie Bob,

I wonder if we have the same sketches. In Heinz Nowarra`s "Die Deutsche Luftrustung", volume 2 he presented several Fw190 V19`s with BMW P.8028, DB 609/614/603/623A and two with jumos. Probably I will post them in a future subject regarding the "butcher bird".

Best regards

Wurger
 

Justo Miranda

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From "Focke Wulf Fw 190 & Ta 152 Aircraft & legend" by Heinz J. Nowarra Haynes 1987
 

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Wurger

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Hi Justo,

that was fast. Your pictures are clearer than mine ( I have the german editon ). I lack one of those images: the last one in the first group, with the radial. What BMW is it?

The others are:

Fw190 V19 w/Jumo 213 w/aircooler
Fw190 V19 w/DB613
Fw190 V19 w/DB609
Fw190 V19 w/????
Fw190 V19 w/BMW P.8028
Fw190 V19 w/Jumo 213 A2
Fw190 V19 w/DB614
Fw190 V19 w/DB623A
 

Justo Miranda

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As per my data the engines on the first series of drawings are:

- Jumo 213 1740 hp
- DB 603 1750 hp (annular radiator)
- DB 603 1750 hp (rear fuselage radiator)
- BMW 801J 2000 hp

and the second series
- BMW P.8028 1550 hp
- Jumo 213 A-1/A-2 1740 hp
- DB 614 (DB 603 with supercharger) 2020 hp
- DB 623 2400 hp
 

Nick Sumner

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Justo, Wurger - thank you for posting these.

I'm a little confused by the third picture in the first group which Wurger has as a DB 609 and Justo has as a DB 603. The engine looks completely different from the picture of the DB 603 in the second drawing, it is longer and appears to have 7 unequally spaced exhaust ports.

???
 

Wurger

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Hi Nick,

it is the DB609, fielding 16 cylinders. One of the side exausts is apparently hidden, but this impressive engine would produce something like 2760Hp. Hope this helps. Bye.
 

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Di's a photo of the DB609 exist and how many did they make.
 

Nick Sumner

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The DB 609 was a new design with the same cylinder dimensions as the DB 603. It was a V16. The first experimental engine was bench tested in 1942. It was designed in such a way that it could, with minimal modification be installed both upright and inverted. Eight cylinders per block led inevitably to a relatively long engine, but it was only 267 mm longer than a standard DB 603. However this also meant a long crankshaft and this suffered severely from vibration. The weight of the engine was 1,150 kg, and it’s take-off power of 1955 KW (2660 HP) with 2800 rpm meant a power to weight ratio of 0.43 kg/HP which was around 15% lower than a standard DB 603. An increase in output to 2055 KW (2800 HP) and later to 2500 KW (3400 HP) was projected for engines equiped with a supercharger for a rated altitude of 12,000 m. These however were not pursued since the DB 609 was cancelled from the development program in 1943.


Altitude (Km) power stage HP rpm
0 Take off 2660 2800
0 Climb and combat 2270 2500
0 High sustained power 1950 2300
6.6 Emergency power 2450 2800
8.7 Climb and combat 1980 2500
8.0 High sustained power 1780 2300
10.0 Emergency power 1680 2500

Reduction gearing, model A & D 1:1.93, B & E 1:2.14, C & F 1:2.40

Comparison weight 1150 Kg – 3%

DB 609 A-C ‘left handed’ D-F ‘right handed’

Cylinders: Bore: 165mm Stroke: 180mm
Capacity: 61.8 l
Compression: 8.5 to 1
Length: 2935 mm
Width: 840 mm
Height: 1180 mm
Weight: 1400kg
Power: 2660hp at MSL, max cruise 1950hp at MSL
Revolutions: 2800 rpm
Fuel C3

There were two other related projects; the DB 619 consisted of two coupled DB 609 engines. It had a capacity of 123.6 litres and a projected output of 5240hp. It was abandoned in April 1943. The DB 629 was a DB 609 with two-stage supercharger and turbo blower for 2650hp. Both were abandoned in April 1943.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n291/nsumner/db609.jpg
 

Wurger

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Hi Nick,

you have outpaced me. I have that same illustration in "Geheimprojekte der Luftwaffe", volume 3. Nice.
 

Justo Miranda

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I believe you are right. My data on the DB 603 comes from the Nowarra book but they must be wrong.
An engine with such a size needs a cooler bigger than the one in the DB 603 and that explains the need to install it at the rear fuselage.

Please find attached two drawings on the Fw 190 V19 with the DB 609 engine at the same scale.

Your solution is excellent, congratulations!
 

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