Focke Wulf Fw 190/Ta 152 Projects & Variants

Justo Miranda

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Please see attached some stuff from
-"Aircraft & Legend Focke Wulf Fw 190 & Ta 152" by Heinz J.Nowarra ,Haynes publishing , 1988


And four speculative drawings by myself
Wingspan 13 m, Lenght (BMW 802)11,5m (BMW 8011)11,8 m
SOURCE GRADING 4
 

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Antonio

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Thanks again for your wonderful drawings and data. Do you know which was the engine power for that monsters?.

Thanks in advance.

Both designs look mighty. I wonder why the FW-190/Ta-152 development was so delayed and why it was never boosted to the limits shown in that BMW 802 and 8011 versions. The Ta-152 proved to be a formidable fighter but. I guess a mix of circumstances conspired against it:

Political: Messerschmitt enjoyed better relationship with nazi leaders? That’s why Me-109 was a first line fighter to the end of the War?.

Technical: jet fighters appeared before the Ta152 could reach its full development?
 

Apophenia

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According to this Luft46 source ( http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwbmw802.html ), the BMW 802 produced 2600 hp for take-off and 1600 hp at 39,000 feet. The BMW P.8011 produced 2800-2900 hp for take-off but no altitude rating is given.
 

Kadija_Man

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pometablava said:
Political: Messerschmitt enjoyed better relationship with nazi leaders? That’s why Me-109 was a first line fighter to the end of the War?.
Far from it. Willy Messerschmitt was forced off the board of his own Design Bureaux/Factory before WWII started IIRC. He and Milch loathed each other.

Technical: jet fighters appeared before the Ta152 could reach its full development?
Yes. You have to remember, the BF109 started design in ~1933, four years before Kurt Tank started work on the FW190. The FW190 was always hoped to succeed the BF109 by Tank. The RLM merely wished it to supplement it.
 

Nick Sumner

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Justo - I'd just like to say thanks for the fascinating info you've been posting here lately.

Source gradings - I take it 1 is primary documents, 2 secondary documents is this correct?what are 3 and higher?
 

Justo Miranda

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Nick Sumner said:
Justo - I'd just like to say thanks for the fascinating info you've been posting here lately.

Source gradings - I take it 1 is primary documents, 2 secondary documents is this correct?what are 3 and higher?
 

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Justo Miranda

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pometablava said:
Thanks again for your wonderful drawings and data. Do you know which was the engine power for that monsters?.

Thanks in advance.

Both designs look mighty. I wonder why the FW-190/Ta-152 development was so delayed and why it was never boosted to the limits shown in that BMW 802 and 8011 versions. The Ta-152 proved to be a formidable fighter but. I guess a mix of circumstances conspired against it:

Political: Messerschmitt enjoyed better relationship with nazi leaders? That’s why Me-109 was a first line fighter to the end of the War?.

Technical: jet fighters appeared before the Ta152 could reach its full development?

Thank you ,Antonio for your kind words
History tells that the manufacturers with better political contacts in the Third Reich were Messerschmitt and Bachem , with Heinkel being the most poorly connected.
Like other good engineer , Kurt Tank lack social skills (You may see an example in the attached text , taken from "Las alas de Peron" by Ricardo Burzaco , Da Vinci ed. 1995)
The Ta 152 was built to compensate the low performance of the jet fighters at an altitude higher than 20000 ft.
Please find attached some stuff on the engines
See also "Le Fana" Nov 94
 

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Johnbr

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Great photos of the 803.Do you no whey the 802 was not put into production.
 

Artie Bob

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Probably the main reason the BMW 802, etc were not placed in production was simply the engines had not reached a production state of development. Even the 801 was not fully developed, I have one report from 1944 where on a single mission, the abort rate for a/c powered by 801s was 40%+ IIRC.
As a point of interest, the BMW director for advanced projects (everything after the 801) was Dipl. Ing. Peter Kappus who last time I checked (2002) was still living in Cincinnatti. I regret not being able to visit him since that time as he is (was?) one of the last engineers with hands on experience in WWII German aircraft engine development. At the time of my last contact, he was in his nineties and sounded frail, but it is possible he still is around.

Best regards,

Artie Bob
 

Jschmus

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On a related note, in the April 2008 issue of Flight Journal, there is an article about the design of the Fw 190, the main text of which is a 1975 interview of Kurt Tank by a Dr. Alfred Price.
 

Nick Sumner

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Johnbr said:
Great photos of the 803.Do you no whey the 802 was not put into production.
My understanding is that and the development process the BMW 802 was long and involved (a little like the R3350 or the Centaurus). An unusual feature was that the supercharger was placed in front of the cylinders (in relation to the aircraft's direction of travel).

There was a wide ranging Cull of German Aero engine projects in 1942, many promising designs were eliminated for concentration on just a few. The Jumo 222 was in the same power class as the BMW 802 but development was continued with the Jumo whereas the BMW and the DB 604 were not pursued.
 

raravia

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What a wonderful story about Peron, The Prince and Kurt Tank, Justo.

Thank you for the info.


Raravia
 

ysi_maniac

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^^^^^^
I agree with you: an evolved version :)

BTW: What is in your avatar?
 

fightingirish

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ysi_maniac said:
BTW: What is in your avatar?
Probarly the Fw 190 C with a turbocharged Daimler-Benz DB 603 for high altitudes.
 

airman

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Justo Miranda said:
Fw 190 V-18/U1
Yes, is it : an experimental prototype !

well returning about escort fighters for Amerika Bombers , possible candidate as escort fighters for long range bombers was also Me-329

http://www.luft46.com/mess/me329.html
little ot about my avatar :
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/fw190v18.htm
you have right , prototype V-18/U1 was prototype for Fw 190 C but project was halted by technical problems and opposition to use of the DB 603 (which was needed for other aircraft types).It was obviously !! :D
 

Antonio

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According to the following source it is a drawing of Ta-153:

http://sandglasspatrol.com/IIGM-12oclockhigh/Ta152.htm
 

Apophenia

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GH+KV is usually identified as the Fw-190v-32/U1 (WNr 0057). It had a DB 603G with Fw-190v-13 style oil cooler and enlarged Ta-152 style tailfin but, IIRC, the standard Fw-190 wing.
 

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sagallacci

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That machine actually had the slightly extended wing of the earlier Fw190B project, a unique item not used elsewhere.
(the '190B was attempting a high altitude machine using a BMW 801 with hi-alt features and extended outer wing sections, don't know if more than one machine was built and flown. Not successful.)
 

Le Chat

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Hello,

I'm looking for 3 view drawings or pictures of the Fw 190D-14.
Someone could help me ?

Thank you very much.

Le chat
 

GTX

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Interestingly, in the new(ish) Focke Wulf Ta 152 book by T.H. Hitchcock (see cover below), the attached pic is also purported to be the Ta153.



Regards,

Greg
 

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tat2

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This is the information from RV Resin by Radek Vavrina from the book 'Special Drawings: Focke Wulf Fw-190C - Focke Wulf Fw0190D/Ta 152 part 2'
These are left and right, top and underside detailed drawings of the Ta-153 V-32/U-1
 

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Stargazer2006

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Saved from an old split topic, this Focke-Wulf Fw 190 V19 project:
 

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Madoc

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Hello all!

I thought I'd ping the folks here to check this out.

Do any of you know if the Luftwaffe ever experimented with Lorin ramjets by mounting them on the wingtips of a FW-190?

Thanks!
 

Michel Van

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What was the Idea behind this concept ?
just like P-51D with Marquardt ram engine, getting more speed ?
and is this the origin for the P-51D Ramjet test in 1946 ?
 

Bill Walker

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Were the engines ever used in flight? You would want to be really REALLY sure both engines came on at exactly the same time, and went off at exactly the same time.
 

Jemiba

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Seems nevertheless to be quite an immature idea to me. As Bill pointed out, small delays in
starting an engine, or differences in the produced thrust would have been very dangerous,
probably fatal. And what I once read about testing of the Lorin engines (on the back of Do 17/
Do 217) thrust setting wasn't very sensitive. Putting a single engine under the belly probably
would have been safer for the test pilot.

But many thanks for that link, Martin.
 

CJGibson

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A ramjet for the Spitfire was looked at in 1940, again in 1944 and the RAE flew a Mustang I with twelve RAE PD.1 ramjets in 1944. See BSP.4 Ch.10.

A lot of parallel evolution went on in this field, so suspect that was the case with the US Mustang project. Plus US ramjet effort was ahead of everyone else in 1945 anyway.

Chris
 
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