Oh hi tzoli, it is such an honor
Could you please provide me with information about Vickers export design 322a? Or tell me where can I research for it?
Lists of Unbuilt Royal Navy and British Export Ships
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Could you please provide me with information about Vickers export design 322a? Or tell me where can I research for it?
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"The British Battleship. 1906-1946" - Friedman, N. 2015.
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Vickers offers to Argentina and China:
- 332 for Argentina "Design 332 therefore offered eight 13.5in and sixteen 6in, but no other details were given". Page 832.
- 332 for China "By 1906 the Chinese were planning to rebuild their fleet (...)." Page 347.
"An all-big-gun ship was apparently considered unaffordable. Vickers offered a series of designs, including an armoured cruiser, in
August 1907." Page 347.
"Designs were designated by letter. Design A was Vickers Design 325, armed with two twin 12in/45 and four single 92in/45 plus twelve 4in in ‘tween decks mountings and two submerged torpedo tubes on 10,000 tons (380ft x 69ft 6in x 22ft), with a speed of 19 knots (12,500 IHP). Belt thickness amidships was 8in. An alternative design offered at this time (330 ‘F’.) would have had similar dimensions but a 9in belt and an armament of four 12in/45 plus twenty-eight 4.7in/50 and two torpedo tubes. G (Design 331) had a secondary battery of sixteen 6in/50 and an 8in belt. H (Design 332) offered six 12in/45 and sixteen 4.7in/50 on much the same dimensions, with an 8in belt. Presumably in this design the 12in guns were in triple turrets (the Vickers notebook does not say so). K (Design 335) had two 12in and eight 9.2in plus twelve 4in and the two torpedo tubes. The armoured cruiser was Design B (326), armed with four 10in/45 and eighteen 6in in ‘tween deck mounts, plus four 14pdr and two submerged torpedo tubes on 8000 tons (400ft x 63ft x 21ft 6in), with a speed of 21 knots (14,000 IHP) and a 7in belt. C and D were protected cruisers; E (Design 329) was another armoured cruiser, in this case with four 9.2in and twelve 4in guns, also on 8000 tons. J was another protected cruiser. Vickers later offered smaller armoured and protected cruisers to China; none of them approached the battleship class." Page 851.
Ansaldo-Armstrong offers to Argentina incluided the 343mm (II gun per turret) and 305mm (III gun per turret) alternatives:
- B & B-Bis (291): main 15 (5xIII) 305/50 or 10 (5xII) 343/50, secondary 16 (16xI) 152/50, displacement 21,600 t, belt 229 mm, speed 21 ks.
- C & C-Bis (292): main 12 (4xIII) 305/50 or 8 (4xII) 343/50, secondary 12 (12xI) 152/50, displacement 21,400 t, belt 229 mm, speed 25 ks.
- D & D-Bis (293): main 18 (6xIII) 305/50 or 12 (6xII) 343/50, secondary ~16 (16xI) 152/50, displacement 23,100 t, belt ~229 mm, speed ~22 ks.
The Vickers Design 322 for Argentina is pretty similar to the Armstrong Design C (292) and both are an upgrade of the Vickers Design H/322 for China. The Wargaming Vickers Design 322A seems to be a based in the mentioned "H/322" with improved secondaries (152mm instead of 120mm) similar to the "322" and "C(292)".
Link https://shipblog.ca/blog/pan_asian_battleships
Regards
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TacoMensch
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00-PureEvil-00
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I know it's unlikely, but... Does anyone, by chance, has Shipbucket drawings of DNC 1929 small cruiser designs (3000-4200 ton ones) saved? Because I can't open Shipbucket itself for three days already, and Webarchive isn't helping also.
Or maybe there are other drawings of these designs? Pretty sure I saw a sketch of 3000-ton design somewhere, but I can't remember where...
For Thornycroft T1351 (and it's sister T1347) the question is — are there any pictures of them? Google didn't find any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist... probably.
For the "All-Purpose" one — what do we even know about it? Is it in Friedman's book? And again, are there any pictures?
(Although given the obscurity of both these designs, the answer about pictures is likely obvious :-( )
Or maybe there are other drawings of these designs? Pretty sure I saw a sketch of 3000-ton design somewhere, but I can't remember where...
Also I'm curious about those two designs.
For Thornycroft T1351 (and it's sister T1347) the question is — are there any pictures of them? Google didn't find any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist... probably.
For the "All-Purpose" one — what do we even know about it? Is it in Friedman's book? And again, are there any pictures?
(Although given the obscurity of both these designs, the answer about pictures is likely obvious :-( )
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PM inbound...
A Tentative Fleet Plan
I really should change my personal text
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Those are preliminary designs for what eventually became the Arethusa class, interestingly by scaling up Design D, rather than by scaling down Design C, although over the course of the design process the design grew to a size similar to that of Design D.
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00-PureEvil-00
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Yes, that's exactly what I was looking for, thanks. (Also, now I know where WoWS-related sources took the 3000-tonner's designation as "Variant E" from.)
Yeah, I know it. I hoped that there are other drawings of them, maybe Shipbucket or something else. (I could probably kitbash them myself, but my best source for kitbashing materials is dead
)Is the bottom one Design 2??
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I think it's Design B.
Jaisheelal400
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Might you provide whatever particulars you have for this design, and/or similar designs in the same series (T.13xx)? I have found another design from Thornycroft, and would like to check it against the data for these ships in case there's a relationship. I intend to post about the design as soon as I've finished looking into it.
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Thornycroft Design 1351 - Destroyer - Around 1944
Dimensions: 112,78 (oa) x 11,28 x 4,1m
Engines: 40.000shp Steam Turbines, 2-shafts
Displacement: 2.200tons standard, 2.705tons full load
Armaments:
2x2 4"/45 QF Mark XVI
3x2 40mm/56 OQF Mk X
3x5 21" Torpedo Tubes
1x3 Squid
Also apparently the Weapons class was Thornycroft Design 1347
This two are the only ones I know in this series.
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Blueprints I do not know.
Data, yes.
The 800 series:
Vickers Design 845 - 10.000tons, 65km/h, 3x3 8", 4x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 847 - 10.000tons, 63km/h, 3x3 8", 8x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 848 - 10.000tons, 66km/h, 3x3 8", 4x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 866 - 12.950tons, 62km/h, 4x2 8", 6x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 867 - 10.000tons, 62km/h, 4x2 8", 4x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 868 - 10.000tons, 63km/h, 3x2 8", 4x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 875 - 14.000tons, 65km/h, 4x2 8", 8x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 876P - 15.000tons, 65km/h, 4x2 10", 8x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 877 - 15.000tons, 63km/h, 3x2 12", 8x1 4,7"
Vickers Design 878 - 15.000tons, 65km/h, 4x1 12", 8x1 4,7"
AMAYA
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Was this series of plans also influenced by the concept of the 'Cruiser Killer'? As far as I know, the Spanish later even tried to equip their own Type 138 cruisers with the guns of the Spanish-class battleships or the Scharnhorst-class.
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I very much doubt it as there are 15 years between these and the Project 138 designs.
00-PureEvil-00
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Nope. Project 138 with 305-mm and 283-mm guns was born for a simple reason: Spain lacked capability to produce 203-mm guns originally intended for the design.
So they tried to reuse what guns were available — first turrets from the sunken Espana-class battleships, and later they tried to purchase Gneisenau's turrets from Germany.
(The fact they lack resources to build the cruiser itself in the first place apparently wasn't realised by them
)
Jaisheelal400
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Thank you for the reply. As far as I know the Thornycroft design was only a "Weapon" derivative, the original design coming from the Admiralty. Having heard from you I can now confirm that the design I have is... very different from any of those -
~140m overall, carrying a single Fairey Albacore amidships, main armament is a pair of twin mountings (4-inch or 4.7-inch), with two quadruple torpedo tube mountings aft (with a single reload for each tube.) I will post more about the design whenever I learn anything worth posting.
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That is something like a colonial patrol ship. Able to show the flag and escort convoys but cannot fight anything larger than a destroyer
Jaisheelal400
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As far as I can tell, the design was intended to be something more akin to old "C" and "D" class cruisers in function, performing fleet duties as well as scout work (something which the Fairey Albacore would also lend quite well to.) She features eight boilers, so the installed power is perhaps north of 150,000 SHP - probably for a very respectable speed, if we allow Thornycroft's reputation to speak for itself. It's certainly not a huge sloop, and looks to me more like a British Mogador (though the rationale of building such a ship for the Royal Navy would be a debate in itself.) Until I looked closer at the design, I believed it was just another of the numerous studies that gave us the "Tribal" class, but I quickly realised that it definitely wasn't; it seems to date to 1941 in any case, so a wartime private venture design like Brecon (Type IV "Hunt.")
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The Albacore was out of production by 1943, so any design featuring it is probably earlier.
Jaisheelal400
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Yeah I think the design is from 1941 or thereabouts, before they quit production. None of our destroyers carried aircraft outside of trials of course, but some designed in Britain for the Netherlands carried one (and some of them could maybe have carried a couple.) The inclusion in a British design is interesting, but makes sense given that one role is expressly scouting.
AMAYA
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Possibly variants of it yes.
Yes, design 924 is the direct basis of the Canarias-class. The main difference versus the finalized design is that Vickers 924 has the torpedoes in rotating deck mounts, whereas the final design had them in fixed mounts below the deck.
AMAYA
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Hey, Tzoli, I remember you seem to have a spreadsheet specifically for storing ship data? Where can I download it? I have a friend who is trying to understand information about South American cruisers, but I think the data on South American cruisers mentioned here is probably quite extensive.
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AMAYA
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thank you very much!
Jaisheelal400
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Among the collections of the Royal Museum in Greenwich is this wooden "bread and butter" model, which they don't attempt to date or otherwise identify (beyond saying that it's probably a frigate.)
https://prints.rmg.co.uk/products/tank-testing-model-design-model-l3515-001?variant=57032014954878
To me everything about it screams "Thornycroft", and it appears to have much in common with their Type IV "Hunt." With the limited editing power of my phone I have overlaid it against a small drawing I possess of the "Brecon" class. The form of the model differs somewhat from that of the Type IV "Hunt", particularly in the bow - those ships as built had no cut up forwards, and their distinctive knuckle is also absent from the model. Thornycroft designed many small warships for export post-war (directly marketing some as having a "Brecon form"), so this could just as easily be related to that. Interesting either way.
I should like to mention that I flipped the image of the model for sake of comparison.
https://prints.rmg.co.uk/products/tank-testing-model-design-model-l3515-001?variant=57032014954878
To me everything about it screams "Thornycroft", and it appears to have much in common with their Type IV "Hunt." With the limited editing power of my phone I have overlaid it against a small drawing I possess of the "Brecon" class. The form of the model differs somewhat from that of the Type IV "Hunt", particularly in the bow - those ships as built had no cut up forwards, and their distinctive knuckle is also absent from the model. Thornycroft designed many small warships for export post-war (directly marketing some as having a "Brecon form"), so this could just as easily be related to that. Interesting either way.
I should like to mention that I flipped the image of the model for sake of comparison.
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Hello, do you have any information on the design of the Armstrong Export Design H/670 for Chile - 1911 and the Vickers Export Design R/503 for Chile - 1910? I read in another post of yours that these units were armed with triple 14-inch cannons, and I'm curious to know what their characteristics were compared to the original Latorre. It's quite interesting, at least to me.
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I've included the other similar designs in each offer. Presumably the Vickers designs are also laid out in 5 twins, but the notebook does not specify.
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Armstrong Design 670 / Design H for Chile:
Dimensions: 190,5 (pp) x 201,5 (wl,oa) x 28m
Displacement: 27.600tons (standard)
Engines: 37.000shp Steam Turbines, 4-shafts
Speed: 43km/h
Armour: 229mm Belt, 102mm Deck
Armaments:
2x3,2x2 14"/45 likely Armstrong Mark A
14x1 6"/50 likely Armstrong Mark NN
4x1 57mm/50 likely Armstrong Mark I
2x1 37mm/40 QF Mark II
4x1 21" Underwater Torpedo Tubes
Vickers Design 503 / Design R for Chile:
Dimensions: 182,9 (pp) x 196,6 (oa) x 28,65 x 9,32m
Displacement: 26.950tons (standard), 30.120tons (full load)
Engines: 38.000shp Steam Turbines, 4-shafts
Speed: 44km/h
Armour: 254mm Belt
Armaments:
2x3,2x2 14"/45 likely Vickers Mark A
14x1 6"/50 likely Vickers Mark L
4x1 21" Underwater Torpedo Tubes
Dimensions: 190,5 (pp) x 201,5 (wl,oa) x 28m
Displacement: 27.600tons (standard)
Engines: 37.000shp Steam Turbines, 4-shafts
Speed: 43km/h
Armour: 229mm Belt, 102mm Deck
Armaments:
2x3,2x2 14"/45 likely Armstrong Mark A
14x1 6"/50 likely Armstrong Mark NN
4x1 57mm/50 likely Armstrong Mark I
2x1 37mm/40 QF Mark II
4x1 21" Underwater Torpedo Tubes
Vickers Design 503 / Design R for Chile:
Dimensions: 182,9 (pp) x 196,6 (oa) x 28,65 x 9,32m
Displacement: 26.950tons (standard), 30.120tons (full load)
Engines: 38.000shp Steam Turbines, 4-shafts
Speed: 44km/h
Armour: 254mm Belt
Armaments:
2x3,2x2 14"/45 likely Vickers Mark A
14x1 6"/50 likely Vickers Mark L
4x1 21" Underwater Torpedo Tubes
I've noticed that the carrier section is missing "Light Cruiser A" - a sub 10k ton carrier
I know Friedman mentioned them in his book, but I can't find any other sources on them, or drawings.
Anyone know anything more about this vessel?
I know Friedman mentioned them in his book, but I can't find any other sources on them, or drawings.
Anyone know anything more about this vessel?
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