• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Messerschmitt Bf/Me 109 - Blohm & Voss Bv 155 Projects & Prototypes

steelpillow

So many projects, so little time...
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
1,037
Reaction score
497
Website
www.steelpillow.com
Much of the information given here on the "Bf 109Z" is false, or at least highly distorted.
Many respected sources recount the twin-109F prototype that got bombed before it could fly (for example William Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich), but that now has to be cast in doubt.

According to Dan Sharp's research into original archive documents (Luftwaffe:Secret Designs of the Third Reich, Mortons, 2018. Pages 108-115), the relevant "schnellstbomber" programme began in May 1942. Several manufacturers submitted designs.

Messerschmitt first studied a composite Zwilling made from parts of several production types: 109 fuselages, 110 outer wings, Jumo 213 radial-engine power eggs. Many variations were subsequently considered in brief, some with 109 wings and/or other engines. Some even had a central 3-crew nacelle (depicted with rather loose imagination in an earlier post). Sharp does not note a big-gunned version, also posted earlier, and as this was a programme for a fast bomber, it seems highly unlikely. All retained twin production 109 tails.

They soon focused down onto Me 109 and 309 variants, wind tunnel tests resulting in the centre section being narrowed and the rear fuselages being joined by a single central tailplane fitted in place of the four conventional ones. The engines reverted to the 109's traditional inline.

A production design eventually emerged as the Me 109Zw (NB no longer Bf, due presumably to changes in the design office), based on two 109G airframes with a new centre section and the main undercarriage moved a little closer in towards the centreline of each fuselage. But Messerschmitt lost the competition. The Me 109Zw was dropped early in 1943, in favour of what became the Dornier Do 335 Pfeil. Subsequently, it was referred to as the Me 109Z.

Throughout, the competition phase was a paper exercise. Sharp documents it intimately. There is no discussion of an interim 109F based prototype. According to the many other respected authors, this would have been under construction throughout the period of the schnellstbomber competition. But it makes no sense; why would Messerschmitt be pursuing a direct parallel path for almost a year without it ever being mentioned in meeting after meeting? This would not be the first time we have caught the mainstream authors swallowing an unsubstantiated tall story, so on balance I believe that the 109F based prototype is a myth.
 
Last edited:

galgot

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
1,096
Reaction score
1,417
Website
galgot.com
Much of the information given here on the "Bf 109Z" is false, or at least highly distorted.
Many respected sources recount the twin-109F prototype that got bombed before it could fly (for example William Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich), but that now has to be cast in doubt.

According to Dan Sharp's research into original archive documents (Luftwaffe:Secret Designs of the Third Reich, Mortons, 2018. Pages 108-115), the relevant "schnellstbomber" programme began in May 1942. Several manufacturers submitted designs.

Messerschmitt first studied a composite Zwilling made from parts of several production types: 109 fuselages, 110 outer wings, Jumo 213 radial-engine power eggs. Many variations were subsequently considered in brief, some with 109 wings and/or other engines. Some even had a central 3-crew nacelle (depicted with rather loose imagination in an earlier post). Sharp does not note a big-gunned version, also posted earlier, and as this was a programme for a fast bomber, it seems highly unlikely. All retained twin production 109 tails.

They soon focused down onto Me 109 and 309 variants, wind tunnel tests resulting in the centre section being narrowed and the rear fuselages being joined by a single central tailplane fitted in place of the four conventional ones. The engines reverted to the 109's traditional inline.

A production design eventually emerged as the Me 109Zw (NB no longer Bf, due presumably to changes in the design office), based on two 109G airframes with a new centre section and the main undercarriage moved a little closer in towards the centreline of each fuselage. But Messerschmitt lost the competition. The Me 109Zw was dropped early in 1943, in favour of what became the Dornier Do 335 Pfeil. Subsequently, it was referred to as the Me 109Z.

Throughout, the competition phase was a paper exercise. Sharp documents it intimately. There is no discussion of an interim 109F based prototype. According to the many other respected authors, this would have been under construction throughout the period of the schnellstbomber competition. But it makes no sense; why would Messerschmitt be pursuing a direct parallel path for almost a year without it ever being mentioned in meeting after meeting? This would not be the first time we have caught the mainstream authors swallowing an unsubstantiated tall story, so on balance I believe that the 109F based prototype is a myth.

Hi, an explanation of why "Bf" and later "Me" designations :
"Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW) (Bavarian Aircraft Works) was reformed in 1926, in Augsburg, Bavaria, when Udet Flugzeugbau GmbH was changed into a joint-stock company. In the early stages, BMW AG held a stake in this company and was represented by Josef Popp, who held a place on the Supervisory Board.[2]
Willy Messerschmitt joined the company in 1927 as chief designer and engineer and formed a design team.
One of the first designs, the Messerschmitt M20, was a near-catastrophe for the designer and the company. Many[citation needed] of the prototypes crashed, one of them killing Hans Hackmack, a close friend of Erhard Milch, the head of Deutsche Luft Hansa and the German civil aviation authorities. Milch was upset by the lack of response from Messerschmitt and this led to a lifelong hatred towards him. Milch eventually cancelled all contracts with Messerschmitt and forced BFW into bankruptcy in 1931. However, Messerschmitt's friendship with Hugo Junkers prevented a stagnation of the careers of him and BFW, which was started again in 1933. Milch still prevented Messerschmitt's takeover of the BFW until 1938, hence the designation "Bf" of early Messerschmitt designs."

From here :
Thus 108, 109 and 110 that all first flew before 1938 are "Bf"s, Bayerische Flugzeugwerke planes, designed by Willy.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,611
Reaction score
4,574
From Aerei Nella Storia 71,

I know Bf.109S,but what was Bf.109L and Bf.109W ?.
 

Attachments

  • 1-71.png
    1-71.png
    224.3 KB · Views: 51
  • 2-71.png
    2-71.png
    141.2 KB · Views: 46
  • 6-71.png
    6-71.png
    474.6 KB · Views: 44

newsdeskdan

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
1,072
Reaction score
743
Hi, an explanation of why "Bf" and later "Me" designations :
"Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW) (Bavarian Aircraft Works) was reformed in 1926, in Augsburg, Bavaria, when Udet Flugzeugbau GmbH was changed into a joint-stock company. In the early stages, BMW AG held a stake in this company and was represented by Josef Popp, who held a place on the Supervisory Board.[2]
Willy Messerschmitt joined the company in 1927 as chief designer and engineer and formed a design team.
One of the first designs, the Messerschmitt M20, was a near-catastrophe for the designer and the company. Many[citation needed] of the prototypes crashed, one of them killing Hans Hackmack, a close friend of Erhard Milch, the head of Deutsche Luft Hansa and the German civil aviation authorities. Milch was upset by the lack of response from Messerschmitt and this led to a lifelong hatred towards him. Milch eventually cancelled all contracts with Messerschmitt and forced BFW into bankruptcy in 1931. However, Messerschmitt's friendship with Hugo Junkers prevented a stagnation of the careers of him and BFW, which was started again in 1933. Milch still prevented Messerschmitt's takeover of the BFW until 1938, hence the designation "Bf" of early Messerschmitt designs."

A few things to mention about this. Firstly, I think Milch's relationship with Messerschmitt is much more complex than 'lifelong hatred'. Messerschmitt was invited to attend, and did attend, numerous GL meetings presided over by Milch from 1942 to 1944 - more than any other aircraft company representative with the possible exception of Hertel. Some, such as Ernst Heinkel and Walter Blume, are never (as far as I can tell) invited to attend. Interactions between Milch and Messerschmitt are usually cordial and professional.
When something particularly bad happens to Willy Messerschmitt - e.g. the Me 210 situation - Milch reads out a letter from Goering on the subject and states that he is refraining from saying anything else. On other occasions, Milch makes remarks about being misled by Messerschmitt but this is a very common complaint. Goering makes it too.
There's an interesting contrast between two GL meetings in May 1944 when the issue of the Me 262 having to be built as a bomber is discussed. During the first meeting (without Messerschmitt present), the various representatives such as Knemeyer and Petersen sound almost panicked in describing the problems of kitting the 262 out with bombs - there's only one place on the aircraft where the bombs can be attached and that causes 1) severe CG issues and 2) the nosewheel undercarriage isn't strong enough for it. There's also a supply issue with the bomb rack fairings.
But during the following meeting, Willy Messerschmitt is present and very smoothly explains away all the difficulties. He sounds very convincing - the CG issue isn't actually a problem because the fuel tanks only have to be moved a little to compensate, the nosewheel was already being strengthened so it's not a problem, the fairings are being sourced without issue etc.
This seems to happen quite often - Messerschmitt is very convincing when he speaks and nothing is ever his fault: it's the suppliers, the engines, the component manufacturers, the radiators etc. etc.
And it's evident that although Hitler knows very little about aircraft and very seldom interferes, Messerschmitt knows him personally and derives some sort of security or protection from that - more so than Milch.
So maybe Milch did hate him, but if he did he kept it well hidden and he doesn't seem to act against Messerschmitt during the course of the war.

On the subject of 'Me' versus 'Bf', for most of the war Messerschmitt's internal papers nearly always refer to the 'Me 109'. This is true of test and development reports, supply reports etc. as well as project drawings. So it's no surprise to see 'Me 109 Zw' in company documents. The 'official' designation was 'Bf 109', but colloquially it seems many people in Germany even outside Messerschmitt did also call it the 'Me 109', to the point where it was pretty much interchangable by the end of the war.
 

sienar

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
684
Reaction score
338
Hi, an explanation of why "Bf" and later "Me" designations :
"Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW) (Bavarian Aircraft Works) was reformed in 1926, in Augsburg, Bavaria, when Udet Flugzeugbau GmbH was changed into a joint-stock company. In the early stages, BMW AG held a stake in this company and was represented by Josef Popp, who held a place on the Supervisory Board.[2]
Willy Messerschmitt joined the company in 1927 as chief designer and engineer and formed a design team.
One of the first designs, the Messerschmitt M20, was a near-catastrophe for the designer and the company. Many[citation needed] of the prototypes crashed, one of them killing Hans Hackmack, a close friend of Erhard Milch, the head of Deutsche Luft Hansa and the German civil aviation authorities. Milch was upset by the lack of response from Messerschmitt and this led to a lifelong hatred towards him. Milch eventually cancelled all contracts with Messerschmitt and forced BFW into bankruptcy in 1931. However, Messerschmitt's friendship with Hugo Junkers prevented a stagnation of the careers of him and BFW, which was started again in 1933. Milch still prevented Messerschmitt's takeover of the BFW until 1938, hence the designation "Bf" of early Messerschmitt designs."

A few things to mention about this. Firstly, I think Milch's relationship with Messerschmitt is much more complex than 'lifelong hatred'. Messerschmitt was invited to attend, and did attend, numerous GL meetings presided over by Milch from 1942 to 1944 - more than any other aircraft company representative with the possible exception of Hertel. Some, such as Ernst Heinkel and Walter Blume, are never (as far as I can tell) invited to attend. Interactions between Milch and Messerschmitt are usually cordial and professional.
When something particularly bad happens to Willy Messerschmitt - e.g. the Me 210 situation - Milch reads out a letter from Goering on the subject and states that he is refraining from saying anything else. On other occasions, Milch makes remarks about being misled by Messerschmitt but this is a very common complaint. Goering makes it too.
There's an interesting contrast between two GL meetings in May 1944 when the issue of the Me 262 having to be built as a bomber is discussed. During the first meeting (without Messerschmitt present), the various representatives such as Knemeyer and Petersen sound almost panicked in describing the problems of kitting the 262 out with bombs - there's only one place on the aircraft where the bombs can be attached and that causes 1) severe CG issues and 2) the nosewheel undercarriage isn't strong enough for it. There's also a supply issue with the bomb rack fairings.
But during the following meeting, Willy Messerschmitt is present and very smoothly explains away all the difficulties. He sounds very convincing - the CG issue isn't actually a problem because the fuel tanks only have to be moved a little to compensate, the nosewheel was already being strengthened so it's not a problem, the fairings are being sourced without issue etc.
This seems to happen quite often - Messerschmitt is very convincing when he speaks and nothing is ever his fault: it's the suppliers, the engines, the component manufacturers, the radiators etc. etc.
And it's evident that although Hitler knows very little about aircraft and very seldom interferes, Messerschmitt knows him personally and derives some sort of security or protection from that - more so than Milch.
So maybe Milch did hate him, but if he did he kept it well hidden and he doesn't seem to act against Messerschmitt during the course of the war.

On the subject of 'Me' versus 'Bf', for most of the war Messerschmitt's internal papers nearly always refer to the 'Me 109'. This is true of test and development reports, supply reports etc. as well as project drawings. So it's no surprise to see 'Me 109 Zw' in company documents. The 'official' designation was 'Bf 109', but colloquially it seems many people in Germany even outside Messerschmitt did also call it the 'Me 109', to the point where it was pretty much interchangable by the end of the war.

iirc, the supposed source of the animosity goes back to when Milch was in-charge of Luft Hansa. There was a Messerschmitt M.20 that crashed killing a good friend of Milch who then held Messerschmitts lack of action against him.
 

newsdeskdan

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
1,072
Reaction score
743
iirc, the supposed source of the animosity goes back to when Milch was in-charge of Luft Hansa. There was a Messerschmitt M.20 that crashed killing a good friend of Milch who then held Messerschmitts lack of action against him.

Yes - that's the bit of Galgot's original post I was responding to, the hatred supposedly arising from the death of Hans Hackmack. Judging by the hours and hours of meeting transcripts which show Messerschmitt conversing with Milch and others during GL conferences, I would certainly say that Milch did not trust Messerschmitt. It doesn't seem to have been a lack of faith in his abilities as an engineer and designer (which you might think that it would be on the basis of the M20 incident), or his judgement - more that Milch felt Messerschmitt was embellishing the truth, withholding information, obfuscating and generally being less than honest about the state of his factories and his company's work. I think Milch's distrust was probably justified, all things considered.
 

GTX

All hail the God of Frustration!!!
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
3,176
Reaction score
856
Website
beyondthesprues.com

On the subject of 'Me' versus 'Bf', for most of the war Messerschmitt's internal papers nearly always refer to the 'Me 109'. This is true of test and development reports, supply reports etc. as well as project drawings. So it's no surprise to see 'Me 109 Zw' in company documents. The 'official' designation was 'Bf 109', but colloquially it seems many people in Germany even outside Messerschmitt did also call it the 'Me 109', to the point where it was pretty much interchangable by the end of the war.
A new spin on the old "Me" vs "Bf" argument.:D
 

Similar threads

Top