Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes

Jemiba

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Interesting find, hesham !
Perhaps one of our native french speakers could help here : The design reminds me to
Gerald Herricks Convertaplanes ( http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19837.msg202197.html#msg202197)
and in the text I found "..l'immobilisation en vol", which I would translate as "fixed during flight".
And the 3-view somehow suggests, too, that during cruising flight the rotor should be stopped
and work as a fixed wing.
 

hesham

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Hi,


here is a strange ideas from L'Aerophile February 1937,from Santos Dumont,Antoinette
and Bleriot.
 

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bigvlada

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hesham said:
Hi,


here is the Astra two seat recce and trainer biplane;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6568240r/f2.image
I magnified the whole page from the link in order to read the whole text. Now, my primary school French is rusty, but I'm certain the text says that the aircraft in those two pictures is an new design from Astra company located in Arad.
This link (http://aviatia.cda.ro/15years.htm) about history of pre WW2 romanian aircraft manufacturing says that there was an aircraft maker in Arad named Astra. Most of the pictures are missing, but the one which link still remains looks a lot like our mystery aircraft, they named it S.E.T. 7. Seems that there were small variations between various S.E.T. 3-7 models.
 

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dan_inbox

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hesham said:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65559918/f2.image

Was this engine working by compressed air,I can't translate well the French language.
The text says "à réaction directe ... avec 5 tuyères" which would be a 5-exhaust jet engine. It also mentions an auxilliary Diesel engine for maneuvering an electricity generation.
1922 is a little early for jet engines, ain't it? The description resembles an early ramjet or statojet.


Heavy-lifter long-range, jet propelled, pressurized and made out of "néocellulose? quite the visionaries!
 

avion ancien

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If it should prove that the 'Astra two seat recce and trainer biplane' is, in fact, Romanian in origin, perhaps it's a matter of concern that it should be held out as being French in origin, in that it has been posted as a little-known French project or prototype. The fact that a picture and/or drawing and/or description of an aircraft appears in a French aviation journal doesn't mean that the aircraft is French. Les Ailes and its contemporaries were very cosmopolitan in their approach and featured many aircraft, from Europe and the wider world, on their pages. Thus I do feel that every attempt should be made to ascertain, by cross referencing insofar as is possible, that a hitherto unknown - at least to the participants to this forum - aircraft is, in fact, French - in design or manufacture - before giving it such an attribution by posting it on this thread. The risk from this is that, ultimately, the aircraft may come to be accepted as French, simply by its presence in this thread, when it has done no more than appear in a French aviation journal. That way history is misrepresented. Perhaps, unless there is clear evidence that an aircraft is French, in design or manufacture, it should be described as a little-known project or prototype that may have been designed and/or manufactured in France.

By way of corollary, I also have some concerns about describing the Hennion as a French aircraft when, it appears, it was designed and manufactured in Morocco. M Hennion may have been French and he may have designed and built his aeroplane in French Morocco. But does that make it French? If a British citizen designed and built an aeroplane in India before WW2, is that a British aircraft? I think that most people would consider it to be an Indian aircraft. If it's otherwise, someone had better undertake a significant rewriting of A.J.Jackson's British Civil Aircraft!
 

avion ancien

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Attached is the whole of the report from les Ailes of 1 February 1940 concerning the Hennion monoplane. If one looks at the opening sentence of the second paragraph, where the place of construction should appear, irritatingly one finds the word 'censuré'. Thus maybe I was too swift in judging this aeroplane as Moroccan rather than French (but perhaps Maveric can identify the source of his information that it was constructed in Morocco). However I do not resile from the general principle of my argument, namely that it is preferable to attribute an aircraft designed and/or built in a country under colonial rule to the geographical country rather than to the foreign power that rules it at that time. Otherwise all aircraft designed and/or constructed before August 1947 in what is now India, Pakistan and Bangladesh will have to be called British!
 

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c460

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Hi avion_ancien,

The Hennion also appears in Les Ailes 28/12/1939, where the town name Casablanca is not censored:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554721m/f5.image

By the way, Charles Claveau includes Hennion (who made no other aircraft) among French aircraft manufacturers in Trait d'Union no.215. But I agree that the attribution is borderline.

Adrien
 

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Hi avion ancien,my source was the L+K, but I can´t say which issue. I believe 2013 or 2012...
 

avion ancien

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Here's a photograph of the AL.1 of 1912 (from l'Aérophile, May 1935). Both the three view drawing and the photograph of the model, posted by Hesham, are of the AL.2 of 1923.
 

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hesham

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Thank you Avion,


I knew that the AL-1 was appeared in 1912 and AL-2 appeared in 1923.
 

hesham

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Tophe said:
In the Trait d’Union #138, this is a mystery.
After the very classical Kellner-Bechereau E60 trainer (1st flight March 1940) is another 3-view drawing of twin-pusher with a weird wing. Nothing in the text there explains what this is. The only explanation I found could be a text 3 pages before in the introduction: "Béchereau designed a glider with a weird shape, a double crescent wing for a fighter project. From this glider project, Béchereau designed a motor-glider with two 7hp engines and the first drawer wing". The date seems between 1932 and 1936.

And here is the Bechereau glider and motor -glider strange concept of wing,from
L'Aerophile;


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65536639/f16.image.r=l%27a%C3%A9rophile.langFR
 

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hesham

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Hi,


the French designer Paul Schmitt built his first aircraft in 1910,after that came a long
series of aircraft and projects,began with P.S.1 up to P.S.14,I know that he after the
WW1 created an experimental aircraft,may be a seaplane,old source on Internet called
it,the Type 194,has anyone a more info about it ?.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
the French designer Paul Schmitt built his first aircraft in 1910,after that came a long
series of aircraft and projects,began with P.S.1 up to P.S.14,I know that he after the
WW1 created an experimental aircraft,may be a seaplane,old source on Internet called
it,the Type 194,has anyone a more info about it ?.

By the way,


this Schmitt experimental aircraft mention in the Trait d'Union magazine index.
 

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avion ancien

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c460 said:
Hennion light aircraft, from Les Ailes 28 Dec. 1939 and 1 Feb. 1940.
Adrien
There's more on the history of the Hennion to be found at http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?128197-The-even-newer-%282014%29-Wot-plane-Quiz-Thread-Rules-In-Post-1&p=2129543#post2129543 (q.v. post #268).
 

hesham

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Hi,


We know the designer Bechereau and his company SRAP,which created the T.7 light transport
aircraft;
http://www.aviafrance.com/s-r-a-p-t-7-aviation-france-9048.htm


The company also designed the SRAP T.11,a twin engined derivative aircraft project,and
could accommodated 11 passenger,power by two 230 hp Salmson 9 Ab engines.
 

hesham

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From Aerophile 1917;


consider a strange idea from the aviator Guynemer.
 

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c460

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No, it was not 1st April... It reminds me of this crazy German project for "Punktlandung":
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2733.msg152468.html#msg152468
 

Jemiba

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I wouldn't take the sketch too literally, it't just the visualisation of a idea. And that idea
maybe wasn't that crazy, as speeds still were relatively low back then and the jolt of an
emergency landing could well have been damped to acceptable levels for the pilot with a
mechanical damping system. Principally the crush-collapsible zone of nowadasy cars does
nothing else.
 

Stargazer2006

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This was not a suggestion by Guynemer, but by Lorin!

Please try not to assert things if you're not sure. The article makes it pretty clear.
 

hesham

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From l'Aeronautique journal,


here is the Robert Ferber XI very light biplane powered by one 7 hp engine driven
two propellers,he was the son of Ferdinand Ferber.
 

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cluttonfred

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Neat, and considering the engine had a 1.1 litre and made those seven horsepower at only 1500 rpm, I bet those were more robust horses than we are used to in today's high-revving little engines. Do you have a date for the source?
 

hesham

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cluttonfred said:
Neat, and considering the engine had a 1.1 litre and made those seven horsepower at only 1500 rpm, I bet those were more robust horses than we are used to in today's high-revving little engines. Do you have a date for the source?

Yes my dear Cluttonfred,


it is l'Aeronautique August 1923.
 

hesham

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In l'Aeronautique 1929,


here is a new idea by that time to fight against fire,but I am carious about the flying boat drawing,
was it just a hypothetical aircraft or real one ?,when I used the Google translate for the text,I found
that;



The fight against the fire on aircraft C. F. P. Wes. made an edit on this plate
M.H. Brunat, head of the Central Security Service at Air Ministry. The illustrations were executed by
our technical designer J. Gaudefroy. We publish below, a few sketches, taken from the most suggestive,
This clear and well-ordered that the C.F.P. Aé study.send on demand, and is an extremely codification
interesting simple rules whose application significantly reduce the risk of fire.
 

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hesham

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From l'Aeronautique 1930 and TU 198 magazine;


here is the L.E. Elie patent for delta mid-wing aircraft with a pusher engine.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


of course we know R. Pateras Pescara,one of early pioneer for helicopter,here is a patent
for new helicopter design.


l'Aeronautique 1932.
 

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hesham

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From l'Aeronautique 1933,


the French designer Alfred Auger created some gliders during 1920s,he had a
patent for tailless aircraft,fitted with new control for flaps.
 

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