Blue Streak based satellite transport system

[Spark]

Hi,
While trying to find references for CNH I came across a PRO document, early fifties which refers to the only studies being for 15ft and 16ft diameter missiles and the observation on logistics that it would be difficult to move by road but 15ft was OK for UK rail transport. It was then stated that this issue was being checked and looked into.

This possibility for such a big missile was new to me although it was always in tended that the latter 10ft diamter BS had rail deployment as an option.
Has any one found confirmation for such a big 15ft dia..missile being rail mobile?
But it may explain while Charles Martin said “ we should not forget the 15ft diameter SLV for which we had done so much work”.

Hi

Armstrong Whitworth had a eight man team working in secret from 1956 on space craft/space plane proposal under the direction of Mr. H. R. Watson

Hi,

The other week talking to former member of the BS/RR RZ2 trials team, he said there was a RZ2/12 version developed using an all fluidic control system apart from a single solenoid starter control. Has any one found details of such a engine?

 

[Barrington Bond]

Currently reading "From Polaris To Trident" by Graham Spinardi and in the section about Jupiter being considered for submarine/ship basing there is this line "Whereas the Army's only size limitation was apparently the Berne International Railway Tunnel - to allow "rapid" transportation around Europe..."
Anyone know the measurements?
Regards,
Barry

 

[Michel Van]

i found only this http://www.railway-technical.com/berne.shtml

2.5m or 8ft 2.5in for swap-bodies or commercial vehicles, and 8ft or 8ft 6in (2.437m or 2.6m) for containers.

if i have the Time/money next year, will try and visit the Derbyshire Record Office
they have document and Drawings of Blue Streak in ELDO-B version and of RZ 2 to RZ 14
D5290/1/1 RZ.14 Project
D5290/1/14 ELDO B.1 and B.2
D5290/2/2 RZ.3 Rocket engine
D5290/2/3 RZ.3 RZ.14 Rocket engine
D5290/2/5 Miscellaneous RZ Rocket engines
but they have Copyright Rolls Royce on it, so Derbyshire Record Office can only copy 10% of it.
so I need to look for my self and Copy it...

 

[CJGibson]

Well...get nine mates and copy 10% apiece, meet in the pub, put it together and leg it before they rumble you.

You aint seen me. Right?

Chris

 

[Michel Van]

Well...get nine mates and copy 10% apiece, meet in the pub, put it together and leg it before they rumble you.

You aint seen me. Right?

Chris

that good one...
and also a good idea !

 

[Barrington Bond]

2 other options - get the permission of the copyright holder if possible to copy more.
- were there any conditions made when the material was donated to the library about copying and use?
Regards,
Barry

 

[Spark]

Hi Michel,
Interesting archive also contains Mr. Brassington’s personal collection, a BIS member and Rolls Royce artist, illustrator his mother or aunt used too live three doors up from my grandma at Matlock many yeas ago.
Look at what he deposited its interesting, there is the write up of a lecture by one of Val Cleavers colleagues , obviously based on a proposed UK military system from the late fifties the masses for the launch vehicle fit the proposed military RZ2x4 SLV with a 35,000lb RAF/RAAF Spaceplane. That could change its orbital inclination by + or- 20degrees and go from a 300n.mile parking orbit out some 7,000n.mile. This was presented in the lecture as an ELDO civil project after the military cancellation. But I am told the Requirement is still on the books!
Remember book a place early at the archive. limited work room.

Visit Rolls Royce Heritage at Derby, they have an interesting range of historic engines.
Best on a Wednesday, we could arrange for you to meet some of the old timers who worked for Armstrong Siddeley.

 

[Spark]

Hi Michel,

Note, at Cosford there is a SR 53, a variant of which was proposed circa 1954 as a TAV research aircaft when flown from the back of a Vulcan and before but with a similar performance to the initial X15.

 

[Jemiba]

During my latest "raid" to the States Library I found this drawing in
The Aeroplane March 1959 :

 

[martinbayer]

Hi Michel,

Note, at Cosford there is a SR 53, a variant of which was proposed circa 1954 as a TAV research aircaft when flown from the back of a Vulcan and before but with a similar performance to the initial X15.

Spark, did you mean the Valiant, as outlined in http://www.spaceuk.org/sr53/sr53%20pics.htm, rather than the Vulcan?

Martin

 

[Spark]

Hi Martin,

Sorry you are right, my mistake. I did mean the Vickers Valiant as the launch platform for the SR-53, however with the proposed Armstrong Siddeley (Stentor) powered Saunders-Roe SR-177 variant the launch platform would have been the Avro Vulcan. I assume that this variant may also have had the planned steel wing etc. to help cope with Mach 3 plus and the power of a 24,000lbf thrust rocket engine and the jet engine deleted which would make recovery interesting.

The illustration of the Avro 720 variant piggybacked by an Avro Vulcan was with a straight leading edge, so was very early.
This I suggest would have been the technical combination of choice with a better potential performance at altitude.

At about this time or a year or two latter there were reports in the UK press of a Soviet sanger type spaceplane bomber being tested.
The T something?, just a thought.

Hi Michel,

Note, at Cosford there is a SR 53, a variant of which was proposed circa 1954 as a TAV research aircaft when flown from the back of a Vulcan and before but with a similar performance to the initial X15.

Spark, did you mean the Valiant, as outlined in http://www.spaceuk.org/sr53/sr53%20pics.htm, rather than the Vulcan?

Martin

 

[Barrington Bond]

Hawker Siddeley communications satellite circa 1959: for scale the dish was 3 foot wide.
From Astronautics in the Sixties by Kenneth Gatland.

 

[Barrington Bond]

Hawker Siddeley active communications satellite circa 1961.
Astronautics in the Sixties by Kenneth Gatland.

 

[Barrington Bond]

R.A.E. designs. Astronautics in the Sixties by Kenneth Gatland.

 

[blackstar]

Hawker Siddeley active communications satellite circa 1961.
Astronautics in the Sixties by Kenneth Gatland.

Well, that looks kinda awkward. I wonder how practical that deployment mechanism really was. It strikes me that any little bending of those long panels during launch and the whole thing would stick closed, or at least partway open.

 

[Michel Van]

THX for picture, Barrington


this HS design for communications sat has really unusual solar cell configuration

 

[Barrington Bond]

Flight 10 March 1961 page 304.

 

[CJGibson]

Can't see this within any threads on SPF, so might be of interest.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1960/1960%20-%201247.html

Chris

 

[Michel Van]

from thread about Black Arrow cost
came this info by Spark

The Twin Blue Streak drawing from Charles Martin looked in side view like the French Vulcain, but with only two RZ14’s and a 16 ton payload to 300 n.mile orbit.

Just a thought but four BS strapped together with 32ton payload, a mini Saturn?
Only a thought but I do recall there was an official study, proposal for four micro truncated 10ft dia. Blue Streaks each with a single RZ2.in a wrap around configuration.
A bit like a big EE Thunder Bird

That Twin Blue Streak design, are this 2 BS bold together or is this more a Cluster last stand like Saturn-I ?

 

[Spark]

Hi Michel,

Thanks, the idea was to take two standard Blue Streaks from the Stevenage production line. A Single Rolls-Royce RZ14 400,000lbf direct drive rocket enginewith single thrust chamber would be fitted on the the line instead of the the RZ12 (2xRZ2, each rated at 187,00lbf ). Just like a car assembly line when they fit different engines.
According to Charles Martin the two Blue Streaks would have been joined together for tests and for launch but would be transported seperately. either by rail, road or air to the launch site. With the original military programme this could have been RAF/Military UK, East African (Tanginikan or Kenyan) or Area 6 Woomera joint special project RAF/RAAF manned launch sites. New launch stands would be needed because 16ft was the maximum size diameter that could be catered for with the two existing Woomera 6A, 6B, service towers, launch sites.
I have a "Rosseta stone" drawing showing the three versions been compared with the same upper stages. the First was one with four wraparound truncated Blue Streaks each with Single RZ2engine. The Second was the medium lift 14ft diameter Blue Streak variant which would easily fit the existing gantries launch sites. The Third was the Twin Blue Streak, a new service tower/new gantry and dedicated site needed.
The twin was the most massive first stageof the three with from memory about 10,000lbs more propellant.

I do not know of actual bigger cluster vehicles, but can not see any reason why not?

There is a paper given by Val Cleaver's colleague that gives the masses that fit the 14ft BS uprated 187,500lbfRZ2 x 4, and LH/LOX upper stage package with in about two per cent that gives the payload as 35,000lbs to 300n.mile orbit. So we are talking about eight tons per Blue Streak with a single RZ14.

A kind of European miniture Saturn V with 24, 32 tons payload or may be more? Four coupled BS with 32 ton payload seems a very practical suggestion must be better than Saturn 1b.

Remember these vehicles from the Existing original 1959 Stevenage assembly line. The 14ft from the Pinnicles, Harlow Essex factory.

from thread about Black Arrow cost
came this info by Spark

The Twin Blue Streak drawing from Charles Martin looked in side view like the French Vulcain, but with only two RZ14’s and a 16 ton payload to 300 n.mile orbit.

Just a thought but four BS strapped together with 32ton payload, a mini Saturn?
Only a thought but I do recall there was an official study, proposal for four micro truncated 10ft dia. Blue Streaks each with a single RZ2.in a wrap around configuration.
A bit like a big EE Thunder Bird

That Twin Blue Streak design, are this 2 BS bold together or is this more a Cluster last stand like Saturn-I ?

 

[Michel Van]

THX spark

the twin Blue Streaks is also a cluster with bigger RZ14 engine
question: is the RZ14 in one of Blue Streaks engine-bay and other is drop during flight. or is the RZ14 put with adapter under the two BS ?

on wraparound truncated Blue Streaks
i made some calculation: a 4 BS truncated around Centaur center-stage could bring 10000 lb. in 100 n.m. orbit like the US Atlas-Centaur
or are 4 BS truncated for Blue Streak as center-stage ?

 

[Spark]

Hi Michel

The two BS are fired together as a "siamese twin" first stage each has a fixed RZ14. there is an adopter to the second stage.

The 2nd and 3rd stages are HL/LOX and are identical in the three cases for comparison purposes.

No BS centre stage, I assume the RZ2 engine would be rated at 187,500lbf each which is needed to lift the total mass and will increase payload as will the use of a third stage.

THX spark

the twin Blue Streaks is also a cluster with bigger RZ14 engine
question: is the RZ14 in one of Blue Streaks engine-bay and other is drop during flight. or is the RZ14 put with adapter under the two BS ?

on wraparound truncated Blue Streaks
i made some calculation: a 4 BS truncated around Centaur center-stage could bring 10000 lb. in 100 n.m. orbit like the US Atlas-Centaur
or are 4 BS truncated for Blue Streak as center-stage ?

 

[Michel Van]

Thx spark
I try to make Drawing about those BS rocket but during the design, i realize some thing

The 2nd and 3rd stages are HL/LOX and are identical in the three cases for comparison purposes.

Have those upperstage size of 46ft x 13ft ø with 6 RZ20 engine and 28,5ft x 9ft ø with one RZ20 ?

if Yes, we could have here variants of ELDO-C ?

 

[Spark]

Hi Michel,

Good man, similar, re-invented for ELDO C but in this case 14ftdia by about 55ft depending on interstage. These are from the ELDO drawings given to me by Charles Martin, He could not find copies of the Original 1950's work/drawings in his private archive but he said the ELDO were the same/similar for first stages as the original Military UK 1950's Boosters, proposals so could be used to illustrate a talk we were discussing.
The fifties motors not sure about could have been either Bristol or R-R, maybe AS. this would have changed with date/time

I agree evolved from early work BS+R-R joint motor would, could be indicator. But RZ20 not sure, but would bet you are right.

Thx spark
I try to make Drawing about those BS rocket but during the design, i realize some thing

The 2nd and 3rd stages are HL/LOX and are identical in the three cases for comparison purposes.

Have those upperstage size of 46ft x 13ft ø with 6 RZ20 engine and 28,5ft x 9ft ø with one RZ20 ?

if Yes, we could have here variants of ELDO-C ?

 

[Spark]

Hi Folks,

Just to add to posting, Charles Martin said that the truncated the single RZ2 Blue Streak wrap around booster and the "siamesetwin" or double Blue Streak was originally proposed inpart to ease transportation problems. It all so utilised the existing assembly line.

Hi Michel,

Good man, similar, re-invented for ELDO C but in this case 14ftdia by about 55ft depending on interstage. These are from the ELDO drawings given to me by Charles Martin, He could not find copies of the Original 1950's work/drawings in his private archive but he said the ELDO were the same/similar for first stages as the original Military UK 1950's Boosters, proposals so could be used to illustrate a talk we were discussing.
The fifties motors not sure about could have been either Bristol or R-R, maybe AS. this would have changed with date/time

I agree evolved from early work BS+R-R joint motor would, could be indicator. But RZ20 not sure, but would bet you are right.

Thx spark
I try to make Drawing about those BS rocket but during the design, i realize some thing

The 2nd and 3rd stages are HL/LOX and are identical in the three cases for comparison purposes.

Have those upperstage size of 46ft x 13ft ø with 6 RZ20 engine and 28,5ft x 9ft ø with one RZ20 ?

if Yes, we could have here variants of ELDO-C ?

 

[Barrington Bond]

Back to Blue Streak cost...

Flight 2nd November 1961 page 679.
"According to recent UK figures, the cost of the Blue Streak first stage is known to be close to 7m NF (£507,000)."
Presumably the price would have been lower for the higher production rates for the LRBM version?

Regards,
Barry

 

[Michel Van]

Back to Blue Streak cost...

Flight 2nd November 1961 page 679.
"According to recent UK figures, the cost of the Blue Streak first stage is known to be close to 7m NF (£507,000)."
Presumably the price would have been lower for the higher production rates for the LRBM version?

Regards,
Barry

are those £507,000 in 1961 pound value ?

 

[Barrington Bond]

Since the magazine in question was published in 1961 and it refers to a recent report I can see no reason that it can be anything other than 1961 pounds ???

 

[CNH]

I don't have the reference now, but remember reading in a PRO file that Blue Streaks for ELDO at the end of the 60s were priced at £4M each.

 

[Michel Van]

I don't have the reference now, but remember reading in a PRO file that Blue Streaks for ELDO at the end of the 60s were priced at £4M each.

that has two reasons
one: the low production rate on Blue Streak what drive price up
second: the inflation rate of British Pound Sterling, what change 507,000.00 in 1960 into 1,120,000.00 Pound in 1971

 

[blackstar]

So does anybody have the new edition of Vertical Empire? Does it cover all this stuff?

 

[CNH]

Buy a copy and find out.

 

[Barrington Bond]

;D

 

[Michel Van]

the big solid booster for Europa 3 ;D


According the Book "Europäische Trägerraketen Band 1" by Bernd Leitenberger
page 166.
ELDO made a in-deep study on big solid booster 25t fuel with thrust 940kN under Europa-TA
The conclusion:
the Blue Streak Lox tank has to be considerably reenforce, also was problem with much higher acceleration beyond 1.39 G at launch
the smaller P16 booster with 353 kN was better adaptable for Blue Streak.

 

[Barrington Bond]

Hawker Siddeley Advanced Projects Group Observation Satellite. Flugkorper 1960 Heft 10.

 

[PMN1]

Any weights and dimensions for the spy sat?

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a related note, from another thread:

 

[CNH]

Sadly, Blue Streak + an HTP upper stage couldn't launch a manned capsule.

 

[Spark]

Hi
Sub-orbital?
There was an obscure RR 1958 ref. TO LH/LOX engine. at Kew
The Type of upper stages to be used for orbiting TSR2 Com. net has never been released but I understood it was LH (Brohp some ten years ago strong hint)

Spark

Sadly, Blue Streak + an HTP upper stage couldn't launch a manned capsule.

 

[Michel Van]

Sadly, Blue Streak + an HTP upper stage couldn't launch a manned capsule.

that's a three stage rocket Blue Streak, second stage HTP, third stage oxygen/hydrogen
Saunders Roe proposed that for Black Prince (Blue Streak with HTP upper stages )
http://www.spaceuk.org/hydrogen/SP510.htm