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British 1960 manned Lunar Project

Michel Van

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back in 1960 P. A. E. Stewart proposed a British manned Moon Program

with the use of Blue Streak and Black Knight technolgy

phase 1, 1960 to 1963 first probes (ranger types) to the moon
Phase 2, 1964 to 1967 Hardware testing on earth Low orbit and Lunar Orbit.
phase 3, 1968 to 1969 the first manned landing in Piazzi Smyth crater
Phase 4, 1970 to 1971 The lunar surface expedition (70 days)

the First Rockets are Blue Prince like
(Blue Streak HTP/Rp-1, second stage with 4 stenton engine and later Lox/Lh2 upper stage)

for Manned Lunar Landing they need bigger Rocket
the Blue Streak is modifed to 12 x RZ.2 engine in first stage and reusable
the second stage is a Blue Prince or a Nuclear upper stage
with ammonia- or hydrogen-fueled, it brings 7 tons to lunar surface
i nic name this one Blue Dart or Black Dart ;D

the Landing take place on in Piazzi Smyth crater, near Mt. Piton in Mare Imbrium.
on Phase 4 there small Lunar base were surface expedition hardware is assembling
landed by unmanned cargo flights

the Expeditions are two teams.
one move to northward for Mt. Pico, Plato, and Alpine Valley.
at Plato they resupply by unmanned Cargo lander
two move southward, exploring Cassini, Aristillus, and Archimedes craters.
at Aristillus they resupply by unmanned Cargo lander

as Capsul they use Mercury type spacecraft
later a Armstrong Whitworth waverider (lifting body)

http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/2009/02/surface-exploration-of-moon-1960.html

Surface Exploration of the Moon, P. A. E. Stewart,
Spaceflight, Volume 3, Number 2, March 1961, pp. 34-48;
paper presented at the British Interplanetary Society, London, United Kingdom,
September 17, 1960.

question
has some one more info on this Big Lunar Rocket ?
thanks in advance
 

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Barrington Bond

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From "Eagle Book Of Rockets And Space Travel" 1961 by John W R Taylor and Maurice Allward.

Advance Lander.
 

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Michel Van

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Thx Barrington
that must be one of Phase 1 automatic lander.

here some internal link image

note on right, the lunar lander with two Armstrong-Whitworth Pyramid
(a 4 men craft ?)


Crew return to earth
 
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flateric

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hey there! :) was one of my fav movies ever
suspect that UK manned Moon mission would be ... stylish
 

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Antonio

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What's the name of the film?

Look they wear diving helmets in the Moon!!!!
 

Michel Van

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best scene from that movie ;D

WHAT the Brits were before us on the Moon ?!#§
 
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flateric

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agreed, that is what I always want to see
 

Michel Van

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more insane of that scene is
the actors wear british Windak spacesuit !

and spezial thanks on Barrington Bond for those Picture
 

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Spark

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pometablava said:
What's the name of the film?

Look they wear diving helmets in the Moon!!!!
Hi Pometablava
Of course there are seas on the moon, must be Mare Imbrium! Should have told Mountbatten there were Seas to be found on the Moon, he might not have scuppered the Programme!
 

robunos

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Note that the lunar map is South up, i.e. a telescopic view.....

cheers,
Robin.
 

Spark

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Michel Van said:
more insane of that scene is
the actors wear british Windak spacesuit !

and spezial thanks on Barrington Bond for those Picture

When I thought the history of the UK/Commonwealth Space Programme could not become even more Bizarre you chaps prove me wrong.
The irony is these appear to be real suits the best in the World for their generation and time that had a direct influence on the USA Apollo Suits, being used in a work of fiction.!
 

Barrington Bond

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They were in Doctor Who as well ;D

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5714.15.html

Regards,
Barry
 

Proponent

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Michel Van said:
Does anyone know how the "ground current" telegraph shown in this picture was supposed to work? As I understand it, in a ground-current system you still need to have one wire running between the two stations, but there don't appear to be any wires in use here.
 

Michel Van

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instead transmit telegraph signals by wire they use lunar soil for that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_telegraphy#Ground_and_water_conduction
 

Spark

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Michel Van said:
best scene from that movie ;D

WAT the Brits were before us on the Moon ?!#§

Any one know the mark of helmet, is the backpack from other picture of this group the Normalair special?
Is the blue Space Suit is similar to the one on display at the Science Museum?
 

TsrJoe

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is that 'Comet' tank chassis depicted in the vehicle artworks ? :eek:
 

DarkLord

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I corresponded with Peter Stewart and spoke with him at length about the paper. It was never taken seriously by the British Parlament, it was deemed too expensive to develop. There was an interim Booster proposed, which was a "fat" (12 feet Diameter) Blue Streak with 4 engines. It would have had uprated RZ.2 engines (projected thrust of each of the uprated engines would have been 250,000lbs to 300,000lbs) which would made it comparable to the Saturn 1. But that to "fell foul" of the politicians! As did the Cyrogenic upper stages, which some work had been done, especially the engines which were in Centaur class for thrust. Sauders Roe had done some work on a cryogenic upper stage for the Black Knight. The "fly-back" booster in Peter's paper would have had 8 RZ.2 engines and 2 turbo jets for the return; it was not studied in detail.
The AWA waverider gliders for the Lunar landings (Expedition) would have been "back-to-back" for most of operation, only separating for re-entry and landing. They were studied in detail; and had the 4 engined Blue Streak and the cryogenic upper stages been pursued, we might have had a space program!
I started some illustrations for a book I have abandoned, they might be of interest.
 

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Michel Van

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Fantastic picture DarkLord
what your source ?

Interesting is that Hydrogene Blue streaks that show similarity with ELDO-B1 and B2 version

and that Nuclear stage look odd, is here the reactor core shielded in the stage adapter ?!
 

Archibald

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Fantastic illustrations.

I started some illustrations for a book I have abandoned
what would it take for the project to be dis-abandoned ? o_O

that and the BAC MUSTARD...

Can't help thinking about the Selene project :)

 

CNH

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Technically, all very feasible.

The obvious problem is money. The UK couldn't even afford to develop the Blue Streak/Black Knight launcher, let alone produce something on this scale. Zuckerman relates an anecdote that a senior American asked if the UK would like to get involved in parts of the American space programme. Zuckerman then told him that the total R & D defence budget was £200 million a year – to which the American replied that this was going to be a nonstarter.
 

Archibald

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Apollo cost 12 times more than Concorde, itself already stretching if not straining anglo-french resources.
 

Archibald

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Technically, all very feasible.

The obvious problem is money. The UK couldn't even afford to develop the Blue Streak/Black Knight launcher, let alone produce something on this scale. Zuckerman relates an anecdote that a senior American asked if the UK would like to get involved in parts of the American space programme. Zuckerman then told him that the total R & D defence budget was £200 million a year – to which the American replied that this was going to be a nonstarter.
WHAT space program ? civilian apollo or military ?
 

Michel Van

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USA had Money and Industrial output to do Apollo Program, What lack Great Britain
But USA had lack of technician and Engineers, so allot of British came with Green cart to work at NASA or there suppliers.

It's sad that the Commonwealth of Nations not agreeing on common Space Program.
With combine effort of Great Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand (plus with Singapore and India)
Combine they had Money and Industrial output to equal Apollo Program...
 

DarkLord

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Technically, all very feasible.

The obvious problem is money. The UK couldn't even afford to develop the Blue Streak/Black Knight launcher, let alone produce something on this scale. Zuckerman relates an anecdote that a senior American asked if the UK would like to get involved in parts of the American space programme. Zuckerman then told him that the total R & D defence budget was £200 million a year – to which the American replied that this was going to be a nonstarter.
Work was done on a "Blue Streak 2", but the government Refused to spend the money on development; preferring to waste money on Polaris submarines and the TSR 2. The submarines will have to be replaced! And the TSR2 is history. We "missed the boat", big time when the space program was abandoned.We would have had a share in the Billions of dollars by now, instead of rusting museum relics that are all that is left of our effort.
 

DarkLord

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Fantastic illustrations.

I started some illustrations for a book I have abandoned
what would it take for the project to be dis-abandoned ? o_O

that and the BAC MUSTARD...

Can't help thinking about the Selene project :)

I have neither the time or the will to finish the book, I have other projects that I am pursuing. I now live in Los Angeles and I can't access the research needed to complete the book.
 

Michel Van

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I have neither the time or the will to finish the book, I have other projects that I am pursuing. I now live in Los Angeles and I can't access the research needed to complete the book.
That's sad
i will try (in future) to contact BIS for a photocopy of the 14 pages report from that Spaceflight issue.
and ask if there more data of this program in BIS archive.

One question, DarkLord
You have any info or picture on fly-back Booster interstage section between first and second stage?
I'm curious how they deal Stage separation and get off the interstage section from the Aerodynamic nosecone of fly-back booster.
 
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DarkLord

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I have a little info, but the fly-back booster was only a "paper" project. The aerodynamic nose of the booster was enclosed in a structure "mated" to the second stage, solid rockets would have been used in the separation of the 1st and 2nd stages; leaving the first stage to move away and begin descent before the Nuclear, or chemical stage, ignited! There was talk of a transtage, to leave more time for the Booster to descend. One point, the diagram of the Booster, was redesigned to allow a runway landing. The ventral and dorsal fins were abandoned early on and the profile was "fattened out" to facilitate the undercarriage, which I believe would have been similar to the U2 or B-52 configuration. There may have been some panel/flaps for lateral control in place of the ventral/dorsal fins. It would have taken years to develop and may not have suited the timetable proposed by Prof. Stewart. In the final study all the rocket engines would have been the uprated RZ 2; and the jet engines would probably been RR Avons.
 
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