BAC/Sud Aviation Concorde - Development, Variants, Projects

blackkite

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http://www.museeairespace.fr/aller-plus-haut/documentation/plans/

"The Super Caravelle is a project studied in common by the French companies South-Aviation and General Aviation Marcel Dassault (GAMD)

The first for his knowledge of civil transport aircraft, the second for its supersonic jet expertise.

Average plane supersonic mail, the Super Caravelle had to be capable of carrying 82 passengers over a distance of 3500 km.

Designed in 1961, the Super Caravelle was to succeed the legendary Caravelle and gave a first draft of what would become the Concorde."

This 1961 Dassault design had four engines.
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
Source ; Avion Concorde
Bristol 223 wing was twisted same as Concorde.
Sud Super Caravelle had double delta or ogee wing.
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
This Bristol 1961 design had 6 engines and double delta wing without twist. Is this plan called Type 198?

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=10397&start=2940&hilit=mey

Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Type_223
"STAC
By 1956 there was enough official interest in this research for the Supersonic Transport Aircraft Committee, or STAC, to be formed under Sir Morien Morgan to investigate the creation of a supersonic transport. Its first report, in 1959, recommended two designs. One was an M-wing Mach 1.2 medium range airliner and the other a straight wing, Mach 1.8 design with six wingtip engines. Soon after, however, studies at the Royal Aircraft Establishment began to favour the gothic delta and design contracts using this planform went to Hawker Siddeley and Bristol in late 1959. Both were asked to look at both Mach 2.2 aluminium alloy and Mach 2.7 stainless steel structures. Bristol's Mach 2.7 design was labelled the Type 213. Their designer, Archibald Russell, was influenced by the constructional problems and expense encountered with the Bristol 188 and favoured the lower speed alloy aircraft.

The thin wing design of the Type 213 was preferred by the STC and a 1961 contract encouraged a detailed series of studies of a 130-seat, Mach 2.2 aircraft powered by six Bristol Olympus engines under the generic Type 198 label. Aware of the great expense of the project, STAC required Bristol to share the cost with an overseas partner. In 1961, Sud Aviation revealed their plans for the Super-Caravelle at the Paris Air Show, a smaller aircraft than the Type 198. Bristol proposed a design which came between the Super Caravelle and the Type 198 which they called the Type 223; the French were looking at a slightly larger version of the Super Caravelle and the two companies had a specification for agreement to build an aircraft jointly. Throughout 1962 they and their respective governments negotiated the formation of a consortium to share development and production costs, estimated at £15m-£170m.On 29 November 1962 an agreement was jointly signed by the UK Minister for Aviation, Julian Amery and the French ambassador, Geoffrey de Courcel and the Concorde project was underway.

hesham-san's great contribution.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783307.pdf
 

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blackkite

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Russian site say thta this is Type 198. (Early type 198 design?)
http://testpilot.ru/uk/bac/223/bac223.htm

Owner's great contribution.
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/arc/cp/0815.pdf
Type 198 SST topic.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2319.0.html


Another information.
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/aircraft/types/type-details/aerospatialebac-concorde.htm
"The Bristol Aircraft Company had been a leading player in developing a workable aircraft configuration for STAC, producing several successive designs under the generic label Type 198. In 1959 further contracts were awarded to continue design studies and by January 1960 the Type 198 had evolved into a shape recognisable as an ancestor of Concorde. It featured a tail-less slender delta wing with a gentle curved leading edge, six engines in two groups of three in nacelles under the wing, and was to carry 136 passengers at Mach 1.8. A comparative study of a Mach 3 version (made of steel to withstand the increased air friction heating) was designated Type 213, but soon dropped as uneconomic."
 

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thrax

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thats why i love this forum
 

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blackkite

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Hi! My poor guess for Bristol/BAC SST design evolution.
Also please confirm page 5 of this topic.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Concorde prototype model and production model.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Concorde prototype and production model three side view drawings by Kikuo Hashimoto and Sachio Suzuki.
Especially Suzuki-san's twisted wing front view is excellent.
Hashimoto-san's prototype model front two window shape is little strange compared with actual picture.
There were only limited information, but Hashimoto-san struggled in order to approach the truth desperately.
Source : AIREVIEW MAGAZINE.

Concorde prototype pictures. I want to measure wing tip twist angle at the Fleet Air Arm Museum in Yeovilton, Somersetthere.
https://hiveminer.com/Tags/002,concorde

Heritage Concorde. You can see prototype Concorde nose motion movie.
http://www.heritageconcorde.com/who-built-concorde

Technical specification
http://www.concordesst.com/dimentions.html

Concorde bomber.
http://generaltate.deviantart.com/art/BAC-Concorde-Bomber-Bombcorde-387790402

Wing photo.
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/263516/f-wtsb-aerospatiale-aerospatiale-bac-concorde/
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Concorde prototype, Pre production model and Production model side view. And dimension.

Another book says that Concorde dimension as follows. (AIRLINER COLOR HISTORY CONCORDE,ISBN 0-7603-1195-1)

Prototype Pre-Production Production
wing span 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m)
Length Overall 184ft4.5in(56.20m) 194ft(59.13m) 203ft10in(62.13m)
Height Overall 36ft6in(11.1m) 38ft(11.58m) 40ft1in(12.22m)
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
Perhaps Pre-Production model three side view drawing.
http://www.british-caledonian.com/BUA_Supersonic.html
 

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galgot

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Hi Blackkite,
here you have a 360° view of the first prototype at Le Bourget museum :
http://www.museeairespace.fr/aller-plus-haut/panoramas-360/360-cabines-de-pilotage/panorama-360-concorde-001-f-wtss/
 

blackkite

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Oh my dear galgot-san!! Thank you very much for your super information. :D
Do you know overall length of prototype Concorde ? 184ft4.5in(56.20m)?
 

Arjen

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First and second prototypes:

Shorter fuselage and only small windows in metal nose visor.

Larger passenger cabin windows.

Olympus 593-1, 2B or 3B engines

OVERALL LENGTH – 51:80 M

FUSELAGE MAX EXTERNAL WIDTH – 2.88M (9’5”)

FUSELAGE MAX INTERNAL WIDTH – 2.63M (103’:4”)

FUSELAGE MAX EXTERNAL HEIGHT – 1.96M (77”)

WING SPAN – 23:80M (83’10”)
 

blackkite

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Thanks a lot Arjen-san. :D I feel 51.8m is little short.

WING SPAN – 23:80M (83’10”) is mistake. 83'10" is 25.552m.
FUSELAGE MAX INTERNAL WIDTH – 2.63M (103’:4”)???
 

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Arjen

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I will have look at my books to determine what went wrong with the wing span figures. If I remember correctly, the prototype was considerably shorter than the pre-production aircraft - which, in turn, were a little shorter than the production aircraft.
 

Arjen

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Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1966-67 gives 58.24m length, 25.50m span in SI-units.
Oddly, in Imperial measures it gives 194 ft 10 in length, 83 ft 10 in span - which, with a conversion factor of 2.54 cm to 1 inch, translates to 59.39m length, 25.56m span.
Image from reply #77 shows 3.73m as the difference in length between production tail and prototype tail:
index.php

I'm guessing 58.24m is closest to reality.
 

blackkite

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blackkite

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blackkite

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I found another drawing for production model.


Perhaps main cabin length is common between prototype, pre-production model and production model. Pre-production model had short tail, if production model overall length is 62.1m, pre-production model overall length seemd to be as follows.
62.1m-3.73m=58.37m (191.5ft) (There are another data, 193ft and 194ft)

Concorde Airframe Design and Development
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
British Aircraft Corporation: A History
Stephen Skinner


 

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blackkite

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blackkite said:
Hi! Concorde prototype, Pre production model and Production model side view. And dimension.

Another book says that Concorde dimension as follows. (AIRLINER COLOR HISTORY CONCORDE,ISBN 0-7603-1195-1)

Prototype Pre-Production Production
wing span 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m)
Length Overall 184ft4.5in(56.20m) 194ft(59.13m) 203ft10in(62.13m)
Height Overall 36ft6in(11.1m) 38ft(11.58m) 40ft1in(12.22m)

Super data.
 

hesham

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From Air Enthusiast.
 

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blackkite

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Is this aircraft also Bristol design? I feel Armstrong Whitworth. :eek:


"Much more radical however was the W wing model, effectively like two swept-forward plan forms on either side of the fuselage and combining the proven advantages of a swept or delta wing with aerofoils closer to the front of the fuselage to enhance low speed handling. A similar effect is nowadays achieved by the use of canard foreplanes such as those found on the Eurofighter Typhoon, although back in the 1950s the W wing was seriously considered by the Bristol Aeroplane Company. "

ARC-CP-773 Free Flight Measurements of the Drag and Longitudinal Stability of a Transonic M-Wing Aircraft.pdf
 

blackkite

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Hi!

 

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blackkite

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blackkite

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Wind tunnel test model picture and line drawing of this aircraft is different. ???
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=180.0;attach=130029;image
 

blackkite

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Super contribution!!

Another site.
http://enperspective.pagesperso-orange.fr/pd.html


On the other hand, "FRENCH SECRET PROJECTS Post War Fighters" says that this is Nord's vision of a Mach 3 aircraft had evoluved into this design powered by four turbojet engines. ???
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=180.0;attach=1257;image
 

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blackkite

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Re: Super Caravelle

I believe someone has three side view drawing of this design. ;) 457 wing and airintake looks like MirageⅣ

http://www.museeairespace.fr/aller-plus-haut/documentation/plans/ Low wall? ;D

"The Super Caravelle is a project studied jointly by the French companies Sud-Aviation and general aviation Marcel Dassault (GAMD)
The first for his knowledge of civil transport aircraft, the second for his know-how in the field of supersonic aircraft.
Supersonic medium-haul aircraft, the super Caravelle was to be able to carry 82 passengers for a distance of 3500 km.
Designed in 1961, the Super Caravelle was to succeed the mythical Caravelle and gave a first draft of what would become the Concorde."
 

blackkite

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Concorde wing.

"The separated vortex flow represents an alternative method of lift generation. The airspeed in the vortex is high, and so the pressure is low. Thus, lift is still produced by exposing the upper surface to a low pressure than the lower surface; this low pressure is produced due to the vortex motion above it.
At low angle of attack the generation of lift is the same as in the convention wing the effect of vortex lift comes into play only in high angles of attack."

Vortex lift.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHpd506RpSU
 

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hesham

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From Le Fana 389.
 

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VictorXL188

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Further to the posts showing the various customers which eventually cancelled their Concordes, I thought members might like to see this taken from an article written during my time with Aerospace Publishing, and published in an aviation part work magazine, which unfortunately never saw the light of day apart from in two areas of the UK.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Two side view of Caravelle S and TWA Museum Guides Blog.

 

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blackkite

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Hi!


Variable exhaust nozzle.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Concorde wing.
試作型 : prototype, 量産型 : production model.
Source : Aireview magazine 8/1971.
 

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Arjen

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blackkite said:
blackkite said:
Hi! Concorde prototype, Pre production model and Production model side view. And dimension.

Another book says that Concorde dimension as follows. (AIRLINER COLOR HISTORY CONCORDE,ISBN 0-7603-1195-1)
https://www.abebooks.com/9780760311950/Concorde-Airliner-Color-History-Endres-0760311951/plp

Prototype Pre-Production Production
wing span 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m) 83ft 10in(25.56m)
Length Overall 184ft4.5in(56.20m) 194ft(59.13m) 203ft10in(62.13m)
Height Overall 36ft6in(11.1m) 38ft(11.58m) 40ft1in(12.22m)

Super data.
Prototype Concorde 001 F-WTSS dimensions on Musée Air + Espace site:
Envergure : 25.56 m [Span]
Longueur : 56.24 m [Length]
Hauteur : 12.11 m [Height]
Pre-production Concorde 101 G-AXDN dimensions on Duxford Aviation Society site:
Length : 202 ft 4 in (61.66 m) [61.67 m assuming 1 inch = 2.54 cm]
Wingspan: 84 ft 0 in (25.60 m) [25.60 m]
Height : 40 ft 0 in (12.20 m) [12.19 m]
 

jsport

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Wasn't there a bit recently on BBC radio about someone trying to raise money for a new concorde?
 

blackkite

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Thanks alot Arjen-san. Pre production model length(Pre-production Concorde 101 G-AXDN dimensions on Duxford Aviation Society site) is little long? Pre production model had short tail.
 
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