Now some details about why many people think that RVV-AYe is the designation for the export variant of the original R-77/ Izd. 170. As wrote before ,RVV-AYe was the designation for the new medium-range AAM developed in 1982. Chief constructors in the GosMKB Vympel then were Vladimir Pustovoytov and Genadiy Sokolovsky. When flight tests started in 1984 ,that AAM got designation K-77 and from 1989 began serial production of the R-77. It was serialy produced only 200 R-77/ Izd 170 and in 1991 all of them together with production tools and other parts were transfered from Kyev's factory Artem to Moscow's factory GosMKB Vympel. After that ,they have been transferred to the Lipetsk-2 and Akhtubinsk air base to be operational with the MiG-29S/Izd 9.13S. Some sources mentioned that R-77 were also operational in the Shaykovka air base with 10 operational MiG-29S there from the Spring of 1992 in the 1st Aviation Sqn of the 73 Guards Fighter Aviaton Regiment but I have never found any pic with them. On Feb 1994, MiG-29S was officially entered in the RuAF together with the new short-range AAM type R-73M/ML and the new medium-range AAM type R-77.

As Vladimir Bogatsky used to say in many interviews, it was his idea to call R-77 as 'RVV-AYe'. V.Bogatsky was chief constructor in the Vympel throughout 90's and after 2000 . In fact ,RVV-AYe as 'designation' was used from 1990's and after 2000 almost on every MAKS and other international air shows as the commercial designation for the export version of the R-77 ,in the Vympel known as Izdeliye 190 or in the foreign air forces known as R-77E. Even in every Vympel's 'Annual Report' / 'Годовой отчет', in the last 20 years ( I have most of them) ,RVV-AYe designation is used as the export version of R-77. From 2008 e.g.

''Сегодня основными образцами продукции военного назначения,
предлагаемыми на экспорт, являются: УР класса «воздух-воздух» Р-73Э, РВВ-АЕ,
Р-27Р1 (Р-27ЭР1), Р-27Т1 (Р-27ЭТ1), Р-27П (Р-27ЭП), Р-33Э, УР класса «воздух-
поверхность» Х-29ТЕ, авиационное катапультное устройство АКУ-170Е,
устройство выброса пассивных помех УВ-30МК, балочные держатели: БД3-УСК-
А, БД3-УМК2, БД4-УСК-А, МБД3-У6-68, МБД3-У2Т-1 и др...''


The catch is in the Bogatsky's idea to 'call' it simply RVV-AYe like Mikhail Simonov used to designate some Sukhoi 's prototypes with its own 'numbers'. Su-39 for Su-25TM ( it was of course military designation), then Su-37 for the Su-27M ( miltiary designation) ,exactly for the T-10M-11 number 711 ,Su-47 for the S-37 etc.

Where is the problem then with that designation 'RVV-AYe' in the practical military terms? Simply when AAM type R-77/R-77E is attached on some fighter own or exported as radar guided missile ,there must be some digits/numbers in the so-called pairing/'litering' process between the on-board radar and the attached AAM.

When pilot e.g. during exercise,simulations or during the real combat situation ,choose to use R-77/R-77E, he will get designation '77' on his HUD. The same thing is for the newer Russian R-77-1 where many sources mention that export version is known as RVV-SD but the real military designation is simply R-77-1E ( EL) or with the laser proximity fuse only. RVV-SD is in fact only commercial designation for the Izdeliye 170-1/R-77-1 and its export variant. As we can see on many videos through Su-35S's type IKSh-1M HUD, there is '77-1' designation.

Su-35S IKSh-1M.png


Sequencies from 18:30 and we can see '77' as designation for the R-77/E.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiMHBxSp6f0&t=1108s
 
Last edited:
You're right, I wonder why this is so, because in this case there are no advantages of quantity over r37 iz810

Hi, R-37M ( not R-37 ) is in fact Izdeliye 610M and it is for the MiG-31BM ,Su-30SM2 and Su-35S. R-97 is Izdeliye 810 and it is only intended for the Su-57.

 
Last edited:
Current Su-57 config indeed supports two AAM per bay. But ability to have 3 is indirectly confirmed by S-75 presentation, where they said it can carry up to 5 internally, and the latter has the same mIn bay as Su-57.

Now in the middle ,we can see some new AAM ( model of course) .For me, this can be K-77M or R-77M for the T-75/Su-75. As we can see ,it has wings from the R-77/R-77-1 and the new folding almost
rectangular stabilisers.Also the body of the missile is from the old R-77/E. AAM type R-77 has length of 3.600mm ,body diameter 200mm and wingspan 450mm.

K-77M  mod.jpg

Source ( of course it is not Izd 180 ) : View: https://x.com/MuxelAero/status/1417540055418159110/photo/1


That AAM inside of the side FWC.


K-77M u  bocnom spremniku Su-75.jpg

From paralay.ru ....

K-77M.jpg
 
Last edited:
This is original R-77 mockup with rudder fins swapped.

Yes, tnx and it seems they are not foldable?

Btw ,besides what 'overscan' wrote in 2006 ,there was one AFM's article from 2012 with author Douglas Barrie.He then mentioned next new AAM's for the T-50/Su-57 . Very interesting details ....


  • Advanced variants of the R-77 missile, the Items 180/K-77M & 180PD may be integrated for firing off the aircraft.​
  • A medium range Air-to-Air Missile [AAM], currently identified as the Izdeliye 270 or Item 270, may be under development for the T-50​
  • Izdeliye 810 is believed to be an extended Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missile [BVRAAM], also called Very Long Range AAM [VLRAAM].​
  • Izdeliye 760, which is a further development of the R-73 missile, may be the PAK-FA's designated short-range AAM.​
Source: https://www.aame.in/2012/07/russia-fifth-generation-fighter.html

We know now that Izdeliye/Item180 is not some K-77M (some sources mentioned R-87 as military designation).Than that Izdeliye 270 ( or R-47 ?) as short not medium-range AAM , Izd 760 as we know is R-74M2 with LWIR band homing head and Izd 810 or R-97 (definitely) as heavy very long range hypersonic AAM.​
 
Last edited:
Two 180 under intakes. Look closely at fins.

Hm, tnx. Yes, I can see now that shorter wings in the comparison with R-77-1 and of course that triangled stabilisers. That new AAM is K-77M/R-77M. If we look better and compare the lenght of that new version ,it is almost the same ( if not the same ) like as R-77-1 ( 3.7m) . Maybe it is the Product 180 and the Product 180-BD is with that air intakes which we can see on the photo where two of them are attached under the wings of the prototype T-50.



K-77M.jpg
 
Last edited:
Interesting implication here is that once again none of top line Russian service MRAAMs were recovered ... at least for now.
Any idea of the range of the R-87, is this roughly equivalent to AIM-120D or perhaps even AIM-260?
It's reasonable to assume it's a modern weapon with state of the art performance. We just don't know anymore.
 
And apparently those are already being used.
Ukrainian source gives 190 km range, and dual mode(pulse?) engine.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20250725_150214_924.jpg
    IMG_20250725_150214_924.jpg
    24.3 KB · Views: 62
So now that we see R-87 confirmed on Su-35, wonder if they will also integrate R-97 as i was theorizing previously, and R-74M2 too (i've looked and looked at the R-74 on the Su-35 red 05 but i can't tell if it's a regular M or an M2 which has compressed fins).

Even more, wonder if the Su-30SM/SM2 could use the new AAMs too, we saw the R-37M on the SM2 already. If that would be the case then there will be a great leap in VKS/VMF's mainstay fighters air to air capability.
 
And apparently those are already being used.
Ukrainian source gives 190 km range, and dual mode(pulse?) engine.
Could you point to the original source? And also if possible an R-37M assessment if extant (iirc their sources were mentioning 300 km range for R-37M)? Come to think of it, does the R-37M has a single or dual pulse motor? If it doesn't, then very likely such motors must be included in the R-97, in which case the range will probably be at least 400km and possibly well over (i do recall an analysis made by a poster indicating figures thereabout but can't put my finger on it now).
 
where did this R-87 designation coming BTW ?
It's based on this post found in 2023 on mycitymilitary, which in turn must be from a russian source, maybe TG?

'' Су-57 има 5 нових ракета класе В-В и то су : Изделие 171-1 ( Р-77-2) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 испод уводника ваздуха, Изделие 180 ( Р-87 ) макс 10 ком ,4 испод крила,2 испод уводника ваздуха и 4 унутар трупних спремника, Изделие 270 ( Р-47) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 испод уводника ваздуха , Изделие 760 ( Р-74М2) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 унутар подкрилних спремника и Изделие 810 ( Р-97) макс 10 ком ,4 испод крила,2 испод уводника ваздуха и 4 унутар трупних спремника. ''
 
Any idea of the range of the R-87, is this roughly equivalent AIM-120D or perhaps even AIM-260?

About all versions of the AIM-120 AMRAAM, they have weight about 160kg. Only 160kg!

And apparently those are already being used.
Ukrainian source gives 190 km range, and dual mode(pulse?) engine.

Interesting detail, tnx. If we presume that weight of the R-77M is about 200kg and possess dual-stage solid fuel rocket engine ,max possible(authorised) launch range would be in the range 120-150km.With dual-pulse rocket engine maybe that range would be 150-200km? Btw, R-77E and R-77-1 have single-stage rocket engine.

So now that we see R-87 confirmed on Su-35, wonder if they will also integrate R-97 as i was theorizing previously, and R- too (i've looked and looked at the R-74 on the Su-35 red 05 but i can't tell if it's a regular M or an M2 which has compressed fins).

Even more, wonder if the Su-30SM/SM2 could use the new AAMs too, we saw the R-37M on the SM2 already. If that would be the case then there will be a great leap in VKS/VMF's mainstay fighters air to air capability.

I think that R-87 and R-74M2 are only for the Su-57. If this new AAM is really R-77M than the designation that pilot can see on the Su-35S's HUD IKSh-1M during lock-on mode is '77M'.

It's based on this post found in 2023 on mycitymilitary, which in turn must be from a russian source, maybe TG?

'' Су-57 има 5 нових ракета класе В-В и то су : Изделие 171-1 ( Р-77-2) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 испод уводника ваздуха, Изделие 180 ( Р-87 ) макс 10 ком ,4 испод крила,2 испод уводника ваздуха и 4 унутар трупних спремника, Изделие 270 ( Р-47) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 испод уводника ваздуха , Изделие 760 ( Р-74М2) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 унутар подкрилних спремника и Изделие 810 ( Р-97) макс 10 ком ,4 испод крила,2 испод уводника ваздуха и 4 унутар трупних спремника. ''

Exactly ,that is Serbian Cyrillic and if I remember well ,the source was in fact 'Fighterbomber' itself .


Hm, I don't think so. If we look better,lenght of the R-77M is almost the same as of R-77-1.
 
Hm, I don't think so. If we look better,lenght of the R-77M is almost the same as of R-77-1.
It seems rear end extends way further behind the pylon. I.e. ~4.1m estimation seems good.
Years later but, Russian PL-15, more or less.
 
It seems rear end extends way further behind the pylon. I.e. ~4.1m estimation seems good.
Years later but, Russian PL-15, more or less.

Rear seaction yes, tnx.

If this version really has dual-pulse engine than max launch range should be maybe as twice in comparison with R-77-1 ?

R-77M.jpg
 
Last edited:
It seems rear end extends way further behind the pylon. I.e. ~4.1m estimation seems good.
Years later but, Russian PL-15, more or less.
In fairness we first saw this missile on the Su-57 some years ago, maybe 5-6 years? Also shown at MAK-2021 too. So probably it entered service with Su-57 first and recently it was integrated on Su-35 too, this is just the first visual confirmation we have.
 
Could you point to the original source? And also if possible an R-37M assessment if extant (iirc their sources were mentioning 300 km range for R-37M)? Come to think of it, does the R-37M has a single or dual pulse motor? If it doesn't, then very likely such motors must be included in the R-97, in which case the range will probably be at least 400km and possibly well over (i do recall an analysis made by a poster indicating figures thereabout but can't put my finger on it now).

Dual-stage like on older R-33 and R-33S. 400km can be max ( authorised/calculated) launch distance for the parameter ''Dr max 1'' or parameter of engaging big, incoming non-maneuvering air target.

Some sources mention that new Izd. 810/R-97 has in fact dual-pulse engine.We will see that.
 
In fairness we first saw this missile on the Su-57 some years ago, maybe 5-6 years? Also shown at MAK-2021 too. So probably it entered service with Su-57 first and recently it was integrated on Su-35 too, this is just the first visual confirmation we have.

I'd also say that seeing it in the open now on the Su-35S implies that it has been in service with it's primary platform (Su-57) for quite some time. And it's not like these would have be visible from the outside given their internal storage. So these could be in use since the Su-57S went operational, if not earlier in smaller batches for test and verification purposes.
 
I wonder what seeker it does have. Initially, 180 was supposed to have AESA seeker.
 
I wonder what seeker it does have. Initially, 180 was supposed to have AESA seeker.
It's appears to use a mechanically phase-agile hybrid scanning seeker with 64 T/R modules.As a comparison, debris from the PL-15E missile in the India-Pakistan conflicts reveals it has 192 T/R modules.
 
It's appears to use a mechanically phase-agile hybrid scanning seeker with 64 T/R modules.As a comparison, debris from the PL-15E missile in the India-Pakistan conflicts reveals it has 192 T/R modules.

We don't know if this AESA based seeker is inside of the Izd 180 / R-77M .

AESA seeker for the  NG AAM.jpg


I wonder what seeker it does have. Initially, 180 was supposed to have AESA seeker.

For me it would be logical that all new inertial-radar guided AAM's for the Su-57 have AESA based active radar seekers ( from Izd 171-1, via 180/PD, 270 and 810 ).
 
One of many Russian (civilian)sources that wrote about this new AAM....

Новейшие ракеты Р-77М дальностью 190 км встали на вооружение истребителей Су-35С​

The latest R-77M missiles with a range of 190 km have entered service with Su-35S fighters.

''Ракета Р-77М полностью ликвидирует отставание ударной мощи ВКС России от американских ракет аналогичного класса AIM-120D, дальность которых при пуске на эшелоне 13500 м может доходить до 180 - 190 км.''

''The R-77M missile completely eliminates the gap in the striking power of the Russian Aerospace Forces compared to American missiles of the same class, the AIM-120D, whose range, when launched at an altitude of 13,500 m, can reach 180-190 km.''


Now if all of this is all right :


So lenght of the R-77M is almost 4.1m ,AIM-120D has lenght of only 3.6m. Diameter of the R-77M is 200mm, AIM-120D has only 178mm.Launch weight of the R-77M is more than 200kg /definitely/,AIM-120D less than 170kg.

Must ask this, who is the source for the 160/180 km max launch range for the 'D' anyway? Wiki?
 

Системы измерительные СИ РМ-180 контроля параметров изделий 180​


''Системы измерительные СИ РМ-180 контроля параметров изделий 180 (далее - система или СИ РМ-180) предназначены для воспроизведения и измерений напряжения постоянного тока, измерений силы постоянного тока и временных интервалов, а также для регистрации и отображения результатов измерений и расчетных величин.''

''Measuring systems SI RM-180 for monitoring product parameters 180 (hereinafter referred to as the system or SI RM-180) are designed to reproduce and measure direct current voltage, measure direct current strength and time intervals, as well as to record and display measurement results and calculated values.''


Some photos on :


Системы измерительные контроля параметров блоков "5" и рулевых приводов БРП-180.9500-0​


''Система измерительная контроля параметров блоков «5» и рулевых приводов БРП-180.9500-0 (далее - БРП-180.9500-0) предназначена для измерений и воспроизведения электрических и радиотехнических величин при проверке технических характеристик блоков рулевых приводов при производстве и эксплуатации.''

''The measuring system for monitoring the parameters of units "5" and steering drives BRP-180.9500-0 (hereinafter referred to as BRP-180.9500-0) is designed for measuring and reproducing electrical and radio engineering quantities when checking the technical characteristics of steering drive units during production and operation.''



The main link for some technical/control equipment for the AAM's like Izd 170-1, 180,760 and 610M.

Оборудование в госреестре ОАО "ГосМКБ "Вымпел" им.И.И.Торопова", г.Москва​


 
I have never once seen a concrete claim for the AIM-120D having a range of 180km and I doubt the Ukrainian estimation for the new AAM is accurate either. I can believe longer range, but there's a reason why the Su-57 was sized for 4x Izd.810 missiles. Go big or go home if you want long range.
 
I have never once seen a concrete claim for the AIM-120D having a range of 180km and I doubt the Ukrainian estimation for the new AAM is accurate either. I can believe longer range, but there's a reason why the Su-57 was sized for 4x Izd.810 missiles. Go big or go home if you want long range.

Exactly that. If you want bigger launch range you must have bigger/heavier AAM ,that's it. It's OK for the new solid rocket fuel and engine,low aerodynamic drag,high t/w ratio and energy/kinematic performances but 160kg is only 160kg. If we compare that with the AIM-54A/C ,that AAM achieved max launch ranges ( during live tests of course) in the range 200-250km but it was 'half a tone missile'. With the old R-27ER you can achieve max launch distance in the range 120-150 km ( stratospheric/supersonic launch) but it is 350kg heavy AAM and that is twice as 'D'.


From one article ( 2019) about Izd 180....

''Также имеется информация о разработке ракет «Изделие 180» (К-77М) и «Изделие 180-БД», частично оптимизированных для применения российскими истребителями пятого поколения Су-57.''

''There is also information about the development of the Izdeliye 180 (K-77M) and Izdeliye 180-BD missiles, partially optimized for use by Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighters.''

 
Photo from 2019 ( GosMKB Vympel) :

From top to bottom: AKU-620E for the R-37ME/ Izd. 620 ( export version) and for the Su-35. UVKU-50L for the Su-57's FWC (Fuselage Weapon Compartments) for the AAM's/ASM's with the max launch weight of 250kg. UVKU-50U for the Su-57's FWC for the AAM's/ASM's with the max launch weight of 750-800kg and AKU-170Ye for the R-77E/Izd. 190 ( export version).

Launchers in the GosMKB Vympel.jpeg
 
This news about GosMKB 'Vympel' was from exactly one year ago and it is very interesting.

Российский разработчик ракет перешел на круглосуточную работу​


''Государственное машиностроительное конструкторское бюро (ГосМКБ) «Радуга», которое разрабатывает российские крылатые ракеты, перешло на круглосуточную работу. Об этом генеральный директор предприятия Сергей Богатиков рассказал в интервью журналу «Национальная оборона».

Он отметил, что бывший министр обороны Сергей Шойгу в ходе визита на «Радугу» поставил перед предприятием задачи на 2024-2025 годы. ГосМКБ выполняет эти задачи в «необходимом темпе».

«Это касается и поставок наших изделий заказчику, и мероприятий по их совершенствованию. Работа ведется либо в трехсменном режиме, либо в двухсменном — с продленными сменами по 10-12 часов, шесть, а по многим направлениям и семь дней в неделю, то есть в режиме 24/7», — сказал Богатиков.''


Transl :

''The State Machine-Building Design Bureau (GosMKB) Raduga, which develops Russian cruise missiles, has switched to 24-hour operation. The company's general director, Sergei Bogatikov, told this in an interview with the National Defense magazine.

He noted that former Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, during his visit to Raduga, set the enterprise tasks for 2024-2025. GosMKB is fulfilling these tasks at the "necessary pace."

"This concerns both the delivery of our products to the customer and the activities to improve them. Work is carried out either in a three-shift mode or in a two-shift mode - with extended shifts of 10-12 hours, six, and in many areas, seven days a week, that is, in a 24/7 mode," Bogatikov said.''


It seems that the new AAM's like Izd 170-1, 171-1, 180 and 180BD, 270, 300M ,760 and 810 are in full production rate.
 
A question of a more theoretical nature on the R-77, or rather it's lattice fins. How much of a drag/range percent penalty do the lattice fins incur on the basic R-77/77-1 family compared to conventional fins? I do understand the logic behind their use at the time (enhancing endgame maneuvering capability), but now with R-87 they switched to conventional fins, also same as the ukrainian UP-277 project for instance (though there is no range increase for the UP-277 over the basic R-77).
 
This news about GosMKB 'Vympel' was from exactly one year ago and it is very interesting.


It seems that the new AAM's like Izd 170-1, 171-1, 180 and 180BD, 270, 300M ,760 and 810 are in full production rate.
This is news about Raduga, not Vympel.
 
A question of a more theoretical nature on the R-77, or rather it's lattice fins. How much of a drag/range percent penalty do the lattice fins incur on the basic R-77/77-1 family compared to conventional fins? I do understand the logic behind their use at the time (enhancing endgame maneuvering capability), but now with R-87 they switched to conventional fins, also same as the ukrainian UP-277 project for instance (though there is no range increase for the UP-277 over the basic R-77).
I'm pretty sure gridfins in fact has less drag in the supersonic region than conventional fins but is much worse in sub to transonic regions.
 
It's based on this post found in 2023 on mycitymilitary, which in turn must be from a russian source, maybe TG?

'' Су-57 има 5 нових ракета класе В-В и то су : Изделие 171-1 ( Р-77-2) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 испод уводника ваздуха, Изделие 180 ( Р-87 ) макс 10 ком ,4 испод крила,2 испод уводника ваздуха и 4 унутар трупних спремника, Изделие 270 ( Р-47) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 испод уводника ваздуха , Изделие 760 ( Р-74М2) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 унутар подкрилних спремника и Изделие 810 ( Р-97) макс 10 ком ,4 испод крила,2 испод уводника ваздуха и 4 унутар трупних спремника. ''

The original source is one of discussion posts here:
View: https://www.facebook.com/sovrusnaoruzanjeivojnaoprema/posts/pfbid0Uu7Xn7cWtaGYVjU9F4DFqR1qwk4C7ZxAkSLixrWeKpVU3ntaHGsyDEJv6PJd9UaQl
 
This is news about Raduga, not Vympel.

Yes ,mistakenly thought that it was info about Vympel.

I'm pretty sure gridfins in fact has less drag in the supersonic region than conventional fins but is much worse in sub to transonic regions.

Btw, lattice/grid stabilizers on R-77E and R-77-1 provide stability and controllability even on Mach 0.5 and that is not the case with AAM's which have 'triangled' stabilisers.
 
About new R-77M ...

R-77M  Izd 180.jpg

If this new AAM really has dual-pulse engine ,question is. When exactly starts the second pulse? First one of course starts after ignition and is used for the acceleration until AAM reaches max speed.( max Mach number). Now we come to the second one and some sources give info that second pulse starts after active radar seeker lock-on the given target .Is this possible and real?
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom