Harpoon missile

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"Harpoon missile meets 40-year milestone" video by Boeing
Uploaded: Oct 5, 2011

Originally built in response to the U.S. Navy's urgent need for an all-weather, long-range, anti-ship missile during the Cold War, Boeing's Harpoon missile system has been the world's premier anti-ship missile for the past 40 years.

http://youtu.be/-HSszSESmB0
 

Flyaway

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Mods please delete if felt inappropriate. Not surprising as they were due to leave UK service next year anyway.

 

Dilandu

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Mods please delete if felt inappropriate. Not surprising as they were due to leave UK service next year anyway.
Frankly, I was unaware that UK operates coastal Harpoon missiles. Or they are trying to give the shipborne launchers removed from warships?
 

Flyaway

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Mods please delete if felt inappropriate. Not surprising as they were due to leave UK service next year anyway.
Frankly, I was unaware that UK operates coastal Harpoon missiles. Or they are trying to give the shipborne launchers removed from warships?
Seems to be shipborne.
 

stealthflanker

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I recalled an old brochure of Harpoon promotions.. the seeker emits 34 KW with some watts of average power. just wow.

It might look big but i feel its reasonable with very short pulses and low duty cycle.
 

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Sounds a bit fanciful to me, it's not going to be as easy as sticking a couple of launcher-canisters on the ground, still needs some form of acquisition radar and fire-control.
Anyway being US-brought presumably Washington would have to approve the re-export.
 

Flyaway

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Sounds a bit fanciful to me, it's not going to be as easy as sticking a couple of launcher-canisters on the ground, still needs some form of acquisition radar and fire-control.
Anyway being US-brought presumably Washington would have to approve the re-export.
It’s now confirmed.

Ukraine: Johnson pledges aid to Zelensky in Kyiv meeting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61052643

 

timmymagic

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Sounds a bit fanciful to me, it's not going to be as easy as sticking a couple of launcher-canisters on the ground, still needs some form of acquisition radar and fire-control.
Anyway being US-brought presumably Washington would have to approve the re-export.
It’s now confirmed.

Ukraine: Johnson pledges aid to Zelensky in Kyiv meeting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61052643

Just to be clear Harpoon is not confirmed...anti-ship missiles have been, but what that actually entails is another thing...
 

kaiserd

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The Sea Venom (the missile) & Martlet (the 2 new missiles for the Wildcat) would also appear to be potential candidates for supply (rather than Harpoons).
In theory could even be retired Sea Skuas (the missile), Mavericks (unlikely UK didn’t sell these back to the US when the Harrier GR.9 retired) or garbled references to Brimstones being used in a anti-ship role (?).

Does the Ukraine have anything (fixed wing aircraft, helicopter, ship) that can readily carry & fire any of these UK and US missiles (I think the likeliest answer is “No”) or would it have to a standalone shore based system (and does the UK have any of those to give?)?
 
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Harpoon-Coastal-Defense-Systems.jpg

Royal Danish Navy’s Mobile Missile Battery which was in service from early 90’s capable of firing Harpoon missiles for coastal defense. (Image: WIKIMEDIA-2002)
 

Hood

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Martlet would probably be the logistical choice as they already have Starstreaks - but unless they are planning to purely engage RHIBs it makes no sense as it lacks any punch as an anti-ship weapon.

Brimstone seemed to be a concept connected to those missile boats we were going to build for them - but it was all very vague what missiles they would carry. And of course MBDA trying to develop the mods would take time.

Sea Skua could be surface launched, seems unlikely but if there are stocks gathering dust it saves us decommissioning and scrapping them. Even so, some kind of launcher would need to be lashed up (I think Oman or UAE had some FAC-fired Sea Skuas a long time ago). Never heard of it being used without a Seaspray radar for airborne use though. Not sure what, if any, Ukrainian aircraft/choppers could use it.

Harpoon also seems unlikely, just because the time it would take to develop a truck-launcher and interface with whatever shore-based radar they have.
As kaiserd says, we just don't have any multirole SSMs that are not air-launched and which need integrating with airborne radars.

Guess we'll just have to see what turns up.
 

Flyaway

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Sounds a bit fanciful to me, it's not going to be as easy as sticking a couple of launcher-canisters on the ground, still needs some form of acquisition radar and fire-control.
Anyway being US-brought presumably Washington would have to approve the re-export.
It’s now confirmed.

Ukraine: Johnson pledges aid to Zelensky in Kyiv meeting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61052643

Just to be clear Harpoon is not confirmed...anti-ship missiles have been, but what that actually entails is another thing...
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmcleary/status/1512841964193869828
 

Flyaway

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It’s the Harpoon because they are going out of service over in the UK anyway.
 

Opportunistic Minnow

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Harpoon also seems unlikely, just because the time it would take to develop a truck-launcher and interface with whatever shore-based radar they have.
Sub-Harpoon is exceedingly unlikely to have any kind of radar-lock before launch so I'm sure the Harpoon family must have some kind of immediately-terminal mode available that any defenders of Odesa, say, can make use of. They are unlikely to be concerned about blue-on-blue under the circumstances so any grey thing in the pickle barrel it hits will do.....
 

TomS

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Harpoon also seems unlikely, just because the time it would take to develop a truck-launcher and interface with whatever shore-based radar they have.
Sub-Harpoon is exceedingly unlikely to have any kind of radar-lock before launch so I'm sure the Harpoon family must have some kind of immediately-terminal mode available that any defenders of Odesa, say, can make use of. They are unlikely to be concerned about blue-on-blue under the circumstances so any grey thing in the pickle barrel it hits will do.....

At minimum, Harpoon does have a bearing-only launch mode. But in BOL, it will literally target the first ship-like thing it sees, which might explain the Russian Navy preference for making neutral merchants lead the way for them.

 

stealthflanker

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and have the launchers issue ben solved ? Or The England will make an ad-hoc launcher using ground vehicles ?
 

timmymagic

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Sounds a bit fanciful to me, it's not going to be as easy as sticking a couple of launcher-canisters on the ground, still needs some form of acquisition radar and fire-control.
Anyway being US-brought presumably Washington would have to approve the re-export.
It’s now confirmed.

Ukraine: Johnson pledges aid to Zelensky in Kyiv meeting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61052643

Just to be clear Harpoon is not confirmed...anti-ship missiles have been, but what that actually entails is another thing...
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmcleary/status/1512841964193869828

Seriously it has not been confirmed as Harpoon. Lots of people claiming it has, but you'll find zero serious defence sources or official confirmation. No details have been released. Smart money is on Brimstone as a coastal defence system, the Ukrainian's were buying it anyway.

The UK would also need to see US approval to send Harpoon and have a suitable launch method...now unless the Dane's have stored those old land launchers it would need to be a jury rigged system...which would probably require a test in the UK first..of which there have been none...
 

Jimmo952

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and have the launchers issue ben solved ? Or The England will make an ad-hoc launcher using ground vehicles ?

Nobody is saying.

It seems the will is there to supply anti-ship missiles but how to do it is an open issue or at least an issue not openly discussed.
 

timmymagic

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Martlet would probably be the logistical choice as they already have Starstreaks - but unless they are planning to purely engage RHIBs it makes no sense as it lacks any punch as an anti-ship weapon.

Brimstone seemed to be a concept connected to those missile boats we were going to build for them - but it was all very vague what missiles they would carry. And of course MBDA trying to develop the mods would take time.

Sea Skua could be surface launched, seems unlikely but if there are stocks gathering dust it saves us decommissioning and scrapping them. Even so, some kind of launcher would need to be lashed up (I think Oman or UAE had some FAC-fired Sea Skuas a long time ago). Never heard of it being used without a Seaspray radar for airborne use though. Not sure what, if any, Ukrainian aircraft/choppers could use it.

Harpoon also seems unlikely, just because the time it would take to develop a truck-launcher and interface with whatever shore-based radar they have.
As kaiserd says, we just don't have any multirole SSMs that are not air-launched and which need integrating with airborne radars.

Guess we'll just have to see what turns up.

As of today we know that Martlet is in Ukraine, and in action, it shot down a Russian Orlan UAV this morning on film.

Sea Skua could still be in depots, only retired a short while ago so they may not have been disposed of yet, might even be awaiting stripping for spares to support the nations that are continuing to use it. There was a land based version marketed at one point...truck mounted with radar and 4 missiles all on one platform. A really sensible system that naturally got zero sales...

But...I'm near 100% certain it will be Brimstone/Sea Spear. It was actually confirmed that Brimstone was the missile going on the Ukrainian missile boats by the UK Military Attache in Kiev.. as for modifications, MBDA must have the details from the test series that killed a load of boats off Wales a few years ago, they still market it. The launcher was a frame supporting an aircraft triple launch rack, no reason why they can't just do the same again, plenty of triple racks around following Tornado retirement.
 

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I don't understand this reluctance to see them as Harpoon. Harpoon were in the Royal navy inventory (ship launch). Ukrainians might got an opportunity to get their hands on a pair of surface launchers or targeting equipments. They got plenty of credits from their generous lenders to offer some good cash to a seller and many operators are willing to donate equipments. Then it's also not far fetched to think at an adaptation kit for their Neptune launcher. At least the length and mass are compatible.

Geostrategically it will force back the Russian Navy in the sea of Azov into a fluvial navy. Given also the nbr of merchant ships hit so far, a bit of sophistication introduced b/w the belligerent will simply raise the odds of those still attempting to sail those waters to get all the necessary goods that the world still need.

Mk-141-launcher-022.jpg


Img source:
 
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sferrin

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I don't understand this reluctance to see them as Harpoon. Harpoon were in the Royal navy inventory (ship launch). Ukrainians might got an opportunity to get their hands on a pair of surface launchers or targeting equipments. They got plenty of credits from their generous lenders to offer some good cash to a seller and many operators are willing to donate equipments. Then it's also not far fetched to think at an adaptation kit for their Neptune launcher. At least the length and mass are compatible.

Geostrategically it will force back the Russian Navy in the sea of Azov into a fluvial navy. Given also the nbr of merchant ships hit so far, a bit of sophistication introduced b/w the belligerent will simply raise the odds of those still attempting to sail those waters to get all the necessary goods that the world still need.

Mk-141-launcher-022.jpg


Img source:
Very interesting picture. At first I thought, "how the hell are they supposed to launch Terrier/ RIM-67 with Harpoon in the way". Then realized it was Long Beach after Talos had been deactivated. Harpoon was mounted there for a while, then they moved them to the superstructure and installed a pair of Tomahawk launchers in their place.

image039.jpg

ggg.jpg
 

Opportunistic Minnow

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the sale or gifting of Harpoons will require US Govt Approval.
Why would they block it? These are pretty superannuated variants under discussion here and we are in this together aren't we? [wry laughter]

I don't understand this reluctance to see them as Harpoon.
Me too. Obviously I'm not privy to what's on the table but I've seen no show-stoppers here or elsewhere for Harpoon. Again, Sub-Harpoon is cued to it's target with little more than a (potentially and understandably vague) bearing and distance and seems to manage. I'm sure that much could be provided here! I'm also sure that the end-user won't be overly upset if two missiles engage the same target on occasion. That might even be preferred in some instances.

I don't see Harpoon's range to be an issue. I envision engagement ranges to be quite short and targets largely on-coming. I also don't see Harpoon's relative lack of speed/supposed general obsolescence as an issue. If you are evading/chaffing/c-whizzing, you are not landing vehicles and you can only do those for so long before something gives.

I think the larger issue is some pundits are in pursuit of the perfect/latest/greatest whereas I am sure those in a theatre that shall be nameless will readily accept the good enough. The good enough could well be Harpoon. It's better than a kick in the teeth!
 
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GTX

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the sale or gifting of Harpoons will require US Govt Approval.
Why would they block it? These are pretty superannuated variants under discussion here and we are in this together aren't we? [wry laughter]

Did I say they would block it?? The basic fact is that the Harpoons would have been either acquired under either a Foreign Military Sale
(FMS) or an ITAR controlled Direct Commercial Sale (DCS), most likely the former. To then pass them onto Ukraine will therefore require a Third Party Retransfer (TPR) Agreement. It's basic Defense Export Control. Hence why I stated that "the sale or gifting of Harpoons will require US Govt Approval".
 

Opportunistic Minnow

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Alright. Calm down. Perhaps you shouldn't have used the phrase "moreover" which links the 2nd part of your sentence with the "reluctance might be" 1st part.
 

zen

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So Brimstone is licensed to Poland, and has already been proven as an Anti-ship system as Sea Spear some years ago with live trial. My understanding is maritime use is just a software change.
 

Josh_TN

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I don't understand this reluctance to see them as Harpoon. Harpoon were in the Royal navy inventory (ship launch). Ukrainians might got an opportunity to get their hands on a pair of surface launchers or targeting equipments. They got plenty of credits from their generous lenders to offer some good cash to a seller and many operators are willing to donate equipments. Then it's also not far fetched to think at an adaptation kit for their Neptune launcher. At least the length and mass are compatible.

Geostrategically it will force back the Russian Navy in the sea of Azov into a fluvial navy. Given also the nbr of merchant ships hit so far, a bit of sophistication introduced b/w the belligerent will simply raise the odds of those still attempting to sail those waters to get all the necessary goods that the world still need.

Mk-141-launcher-022.jpg


Img source:
Very interesting picture. At first I thought, "how the hell are they supposed to launch Terrier/ RIM-67 with Harpoon in the way". Then realized it was Long Beach after Talos had been deactivated. Harpoon was mounted there for a while, then they moved them to the superstructure and installed a pair of Tomahawk launchers in their place.

View attachment 676728

View attachment 676729
Never realized Long Beach got those missiles. Also is that two CIWS mounts? I wouldn't have thought that would even work.
 

TomS

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Never realized Long Beach got those missiles. Also is that two CIWS mounts? I wouldn't have thought that would even work.

Why not? There must already be some mechanism to ensure that multiple close-by Phalanx don't interfere with each other. These are a little closer together than, say, the battleships, but not that much.
 

timmymagic

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So Brimstone is licensed to Poland,

An agreement has been signed, but I don't think anything substantive has happened yet. The Polish Government han't decided on the tank destroyer programme yet. Brimstone would appear to be in a strong position. I suspect the Poles will be looking at that programme with greater urgency now that Russia has stepped up the threat and rhetoric.

I don't see Harpoon's range to be an issue. I envision engagement ranges to be quite short and targets largely on-coming.

This is a reasonable point. All Western Allies will want to provide is a coastal defence system. Killing a ship on the horizon is as far as they will want to go. Knocking out the Russian Black Sea Fleet off Sevastapol is probably seen as escalatory, no matter how desirable it might be. Firing Harpoon without mid course updates won't really be a problem at all. All that is required is to keep Russian vessels out of bombardment range, stop an amphibious landing and prevent Russian minesweepers clearing swept channels. 25 mile range would be fine for that. That would still have an important strategic role as it would allow the Ukrainian's to free up forces in the Odessa region to move forward to Kherson and beyond. The threat of such a system would be sufficient to curtail Russian activity.

A mobile system would also be useful to move with the troops to prevent any Russian attempt (however unlikely) to flank them with a landing, or to bombard, particularly if the Ukrainian's can get over the Dnipro. The ideal weapon for this wouldn't be Harpoon, but the Sea Skua truck mounted variant...or...truck or tripod mounted Brimstone/Sea Spear. It''s what the Swedes use Hellfire for in their littorals. Mind you...the temptation to get Brimstone over there for surface launch for other purposes must be pretty strong...
 

kaiserd

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Is there a truck based Harpoon system (missile and targeting, etc.) currently available to be handed over to the Ukrainians or would improvisation be required (and realistically how easily done given Ukrainians aren’t going to have the option of much testing or training)?
 

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Is there a truck based Harpoon system (missile and targeting, etc.) currently available to be handed over to the Ukrainians or would improvisation be required (and realistically how easily done given Ukrainians aren’t going to have the option of much testing or training)?
As far as I know, Britain did not have coastal Harpoon batteries. So most likely they would just send launchers dismounted from ships (most likely put into transport containers), with some jury-rigged fire control system.
 

TomS

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Is there a truck based Harpoon system (missile and targeting, etc.) currently available to be handed over to the Ukrainians or would improvisation be required (and realistically how easily done given Ukrainians aren’t going to have the option of much testing or training)?

Boeing just signed a contract (in early March) to supply truck-launched Harpoon to Taiwan. So a current (Edit: or near-future) production capability exists. But the UK doesn't have that system in hand, so it seems likely that at least some improvisation will be required.

OTOH, for the suspicious-minded, a few days later the US informed Taiwan that there will be a year delay in delivering their Harpoons for "operational" reasons. But note that initial Taiwanese deliveries were still scheduled for 2024, so its not like the US is just redirecting existing launchers.


 

timmymagic

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Is there a truck based Harpoon system (missile and targeting, etc.) currently available to be handed over to the Ukrainians or would improvisation be required (and realistically how easily done given Ukrainians aren’t going to have the option of much testing or training)?
Denmark had the only systems, served from 1988, it was retired in 2005. No-one knows if it was scrapped or put into storage.
 

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So NATO said to Russia, "remove the naval blockade so the world can eat."

Russia said, "remove the sanctions first."

NATO said:

But three U.S. officials and two congressional sources said two types of powerful anti-ship missiles, the Harpoon made by Boeing and the Naval Strike Missile made by Kongsberg and Raytheon Technologies were in active consideration for either direct shipment to Ukraine, or through a transfer from a European ally that has the missiles.
 

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"Two U.S. officials said the United States was working on potential solutions that included pulling a launcher off of a U.S. ship."

Both Harpoon and NSM are available in land-launch. Why do they think they need to "pull launchers from ships"? (As if that would even work.)
 

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As we have seen earlier (probably a locked thread), not many ground launchers were produced or still available. Only a few countries are potentially capable of delivering such items (Danmark or UK).

My guess is that this story is more an alibi.
 

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