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Author Topic: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects  (Read 22806 times)

Offline Marcelo

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Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« on: December 26, 2007, 04:36:10 pm »
Oh..well...it's me again asking about Mistel combinations..sorry for being a pain..:-)

In the book " Mistel - German Composite Aircraft and Operations 1942-1945", by R. Forsyth, published by Classic Publications, on page 194 ,
there is a comment about a mistel combination that involved a Fw 190 and a He 177 Greiff as lower component. Unfortunately, the book does not provide a drawing of this composite.

Could  anybody post  a 3-view  drawing about the arrangement between these planes? ( If it is available, of course...)

Thanks for help!!

Marcelo.

 

Offline borovik

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 05:39:36 am »
 From german magazine "Jet & Prop"  #3 1993.
Though I seem that my posting was more appropriately in section beside Thorvic in Scale Modelling, Fan Art & Profiles.

Offline Marcelo

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2008, 01:20:21 pm »
Thanks, borovik!!

It will be VERY helpful for me...:-)

Regards,

Marcelo.

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2009, 09:13:33 am »
Hi,

here is the Heinkel He.177 Greif profile and variants.

Offline CAO 700

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2009, 05:01:55 pm »
The Heinkel He.274 is very interesting. It had been completed by the Ateliers d'Aéronautique de Suresnes under the type name A.A.S. 1. It was used as launcher for some french prototypes at the end of the 40's.

Offline Maveric

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 11:40:39 am »
Hi all,

a 3view of the "Junkers Ju.177" with Daimler-Benz D.B.613. (A version of the Heinkel He.177 "Greif".)
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

Offline Nick Sumner

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2010, 06:28:49 am »
I don't quite understand - this is the fuelage, wings and tail assembly of the He177 with a Junkers cockpit?

Offline lark

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 11:32:31 am »
Can you give us your source Maveric ?

Offline Maveric

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2010, 11:55:20 am »
Yes lark:

"Heinkel He.177, 277, 274" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel (Airlife Publishing Ltd.).

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Offline Apophenia

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2010, 06:20:38 pm »
Gondola aside, the nose glazing looks a bit like that of the Ju-277B-6/R3.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 09:20:07 pm »
Just a guess, but could it be some kind of alternative design to
the Ju 488, maybe to make the own design look better ?
To me it doesn't make much sense for Junkers, with an own design
on the drawing board and trying to introduce a kind of "modular
construction", to give much effort to a Heinkel design.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline fightingirish

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2010, 02:01:38 am »
Quote
[...]According to Dipl-Ing  Günter, the best improvement in performance was promised by the installation of the heavier DB 613 coupled power plant med up of two DB 603 12-cylinder liquid-cooled engines. However, keeping the main existing main undercarriage units (but with bigger tyres) would require a thicker wing of deeper leading leading-edge section.  Apart from the additional construction effort necessary, the new and heavier wing would alter the aerodynamics of the He 177. As a consequence, the increased all-up weight of the aircraft would necessitate strengthening of the fuselage, tailplane and tailwheal. Yet another drawback would be the marked loss of speed and a 5% reduction in operational speed caused by the fitment of 4 engine exhaust flame dampers. [...]

He 177 /”Ju”-177
Crew:  5
Powerplant: 2*DB 613
Output(each):  3,800hp
Wing Span: 31.50m (103 ft 8in)
Weight (loaded): 34.700 kg (76.500 lb)
Max Speed*: 425 km/h  (264 mph)
Ceiling:  8.000m (26,247 ft)
Range: 4.600 km (2.858 miles)
Arment
Nose (lower): 1*FDL  131Z
Dorsal(fwd): 1* FDL  151Z
Dorsal(aft):  -
Ventral: 1* WL  131Z
Tail: 1*HL 131V
Source: Page 96-98 from the book "Heinkel He.177, 277, 274" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel (Airlife Publishing Ltd.)
Slán,
fightingirish

Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

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Offline iverson

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2010, 07:21:24 pm »
Could this be a case similar to that of the Me263/Ju248? Junkers had excess design capacity, so a Heinkel project was reassigned and given a free type number in the Junkers series?

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 06:25:18 am »
Hi,


here is the Heinkel He-177 A-7 and He-274 drawings.

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2013, 06:28:21 am »
Hi,


we can transfer this topic to Early Aircraft Projects section.

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2013, 12:57:17 pm »

Mistel:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3183.msg25666.html#msg25666

There was also a variant for firing rockets into bomber formations apparently. Not as crazy as the Lippish P.04 with the 88mm's though...
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 01:08:10 pm by Avimimus »

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2013, 01:20:15 pm »
Topics merged, and from Griehl/Dressel "He 177-277-274" a 3-view
of an early design for the He 177B-5, featuring a nose wheel landing gear.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 01:33:21 pm by Jemiba »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2014, 06:11:27 am »
Hi,


here is the Heinkel He.177 V.1 or P.1041 drawing.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2014, 07:53:53 am »
To prevent misunderstandings: It' the drawing of the windtunnel model (!) of the
He 177. the stick protruding from the tail isn't a part of the aircraft, but just the
attachement point and measurements are just for that model, too.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2014, 07:54:49 am »
OK my dear Jemiba.

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2015, 04:02:41 pm »
Hi, could someone please tell me the actual max bomb load of the He 277 (not He 177B)? Many thanks.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 07:18:56 am »
In "Heinkel 177-277-274" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel, the highest
bombload for the He 277 is given as 5,600 kg (for the version with a fuselage width
of 1,750 mm), resulting in a range of 8,600 km. For the maximum range of 11,100 km,
bombload was reduce to 3,000 kg.

(will merge this thread with the older one about He 177 versions and projects, to be found
here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3183.msg218413.html#msg218413 )
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 07:21:38 am by Jemiba »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 10:40:59 am »
But how? That makes absolutely no sense as the He 177's max payload was 7200 kg. Was the He 277's bomb bay smaller?:o

EDIT: After some quick calculations it turns out the He 177's bomb bay is 7,560mm long, 1750mm wide, and 900mm deep. This compares to 7,500mm long 1,500mm wide (don't have the depth) for the tailwheel version, and 1,750mm wide, and 7,000mm long (don't have the depth) tricycle version of the He 277. But why? The He 277 is slightly larger, and both don't hold a candle to the Me 264 who in comparison an entire 1 and 2 meters shorter to the He 177 and 277 respectively and can hold and absolute maximium of 2x SC2500 and 4 x SC1800 bombs which is 13200 kg or 29,000 lbs compared to the absolute maximum of the He 177 which is 4 x SC1700 which is 6800kg or 15200lbs.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 11:07:49 am by SpicyJuan »

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 11:37:34 am »
The He 277 is said to have used the fuselage of the He 177 A-7. The
aim of its construction was range, not bomb load, AFAIK, so the weight
of the biggest possible bomb load may not be that relevant.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2015, 12:19:01 pm »
The He 277 is said to have used the fuselage of the He 177 A-7. The
aim of its construction was range, not bomb load, AFAIK, so the weight
of the biggest possible bomb load may not be that relevant.

Huh, really? It seems to me that the He 277 had a completely different fuselage:


Offline Apophenia

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2015, 01:50:09 pm »
... It seems to me that the He 277 had a completely different fuselage:

Initial production He 277B-5/R2s followed the pattern of the He 277 V3, using He 177A-5/R8 airframes (modified with twin tailplanes).

The unbuilt He 277B-6/R1 would have had extended wings but used the He 177A-6/R2 fuselage. The He 277B-6/R2 would have begun the major fuselage changes (having its width reduced, its bomb bay shortened, and the cockpit glazing shape revised). The He 277B-6/R3 had its cockpit section revised again, the forward fuselage deepened, and the overall fuselage length increased ... so, in effect, a completely new fuselage.

The last The He 277 built was the sole 'B-7 which employed a standard He 177A-7 fuselage.

This is all from an ancient source -- Wm Green's Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft Volume Nine of 1967 -- but the information is repeated in Kay & Smith's 2002 German Aircraft of the Second World War.

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2015, 06:38:30 pm »
Ok, thank you very much. I found this weird tidbit as well:


Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2015, 09:57:16 pm »
... It seems to me that the He 277 had a completely different fuselage:

Initial production He 277B-5/R2s followed the pattern of the He 277 V3, using He 177A-5/R8 airframes (modified with twin tailplanes).

The unbuilt He 277B-6/R1 would have had extended wings but used the He 177A-6/R2 fuselage. The He 277B-6/R2 would have begun the major fuselage changes (having its width reduced, its bomb bay shortened, and the cockpit glazing shape revised). The He 277B-6/R3 had its cockpit section revised again, the forward fuselage deepened, and the overall fuselage length increased ... so, in effect, a completely new fuselage.

The last The He 277 built was the sole 'B-7 which employed a standard He 177A-7 fuselage.

This is all from an ancient source -- Wm Green's Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft Volume Nine of 1967 -- but the information is repeated in Kay & Smith's 2002 German Aircraft of the Second World War.

Upon further review, I believe that may be incorrect as the He 177B-5 was a four-engined A-5 and the He 177B-7 was a four-engined He 177A-7 (this is important because in old literature, the He 177B and He 277 are know as the same aircraft under different designations when in reality they were quite different).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 09:59:11 pm by SpicyJuan »

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2015, 11:47:34 am »
Yes, I've seen online assertions that He 277B-5 as a 'cover designation' was an erroneous  post-war assumption. Are you aware of any documentary evidence that backs this up?

For others, in Dec 1943, some 120 four-engined He 177B-5s ordered under Programm 225-1. This production order was then recinded by Programm 226-1 of July 1944.
German Aircraft Industry and Production, 1933-1945, F-A Vajda & P Darcy, Airlife Publishing, Ramsbury, Wilts, 1998

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2015, 04:12:56 pm »
Yes, I've seen online assertions that He 277B-5 as a 'cover designation' was an erroneous  post-war assumption. Are you aware of any documentary evidence that backs this up?

For others, in Dec 1943, some 120 four-engined He 177B-5s ordered under Programm 225-1. This production order was then recinded by Programm 226-1 of July 1944.
German Aircraft Industry and Production, 1933-1945, F-A Vajda & P Darcy, Airlife Publishing, Ramsbury, Wilts, 1998

Manfred Griehl's and Joachim Dressler's Heinkel: He 177,277,274 completely blows the cover-designation story, but alas it is infested with nasty typo's such as:



Which leave doubt and second-guessing everywhere. At this point, there seems to be so much confusion in other literature caused by the interchangeability between He 177B and typos in the book (a good example is wikipedia which seems to get a lot right but then confuses the specifications with the He 177B!), that it will take a lot to convince me if a particular point is actually referring to the He 277 and not the He 177B. Thankfully I'mm also getting the original German version (of Heinkel: He 177,277,274) to see exactly what's what.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 04:20:24 pm by SpicyJuan »

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2015, 07:03:01 am »
... but alas it is infested with nasty typo's such as: ...

Maybe not the authors, but just the translation is to blame. The shown error doesn't
show up in the German edition:
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline SpicyJuan

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2015, 04:32:11 pm »
... but alas it is infested with nasty typo's such as: ...

Maybe not the authors, but just the translation is to blame. The shown error doesn't
show up in the German edition:

Oh great, well I'm excited! Also I'm even more confused by this:



What? How does it have more compared to this?:


Offline KJ_Lesnick

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2015, 06:50:30 pm »
What was the dive-angle requirements the He-177 was built to?

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2016, 08:20:11 am »
From
Flug Revue 7/1978

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2016, 08:26:01 am »
From
Le Fanatique de lÁviation unknown issue

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2016, 08:37:49 am »
From Wydawnictwo Militaria Nº 46

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2016, 08:56:54 am »
From
Airprofils Nº6 Artipresse

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2016, 10:01:58 am »
Thanks, Justo!

Offline blackkite

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2016, 10:08:34 pm »
Hi!
He277 and He274.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 11:51:24 pm by blackkite »

Offline blackkite

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2016, 03:46:42 am »
Hi!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 05:20:20 am by blackkite »

Offline dan_inbox

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2016, 03:52:45 am »
The photo "He 274 pic1.jpg" is labelled on my disk as Ateliers Aéronautiques de Suresnes AAS-01A at CEV in 1946.

Offline blackkite

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2016, 03:54:34 am »
The photo "He 274 pic1.jpg" is labelled on my disk as Ateliers Aéronautiques de Suresnes AAS-01A at CEV in 1946.
Oh thanks a lot. :D

Offline blackkite

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« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 11:36:06 pm by blackkite »

Offline Boxman

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2017, 01:10:38 pm »
Here is some good footage of the Heinkel He 274 (AAS 01) serving as the mothership for the SNCASO SO.M1 (F-WFDJ) in this British Pathé newsreel footage, circa 1950. Some John Paul Stapp rocket-sled footage (using the modified V-1 track at Muroc (Edwards) AFB) subsequently follows in this "Air News" feature.

Online sienar

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2017, 11:00:00 pm »

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2017, 08:04:01 am »
Nice find Sienar.

Offline sgeorges4

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2018, 09:06:40 am »
Do you know the he 177 A2 variant wich was a recce aircraft(abandoned) and the A4 wich was a A3 with pressurized cockpit?

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Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2019, 05:06:41 am »
Great find my dear Sgeorges,

but was it a real ?.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2019, 11:47:40 am »
but was it a real ?.

it's looking minimum Fighter Me 328

There were proposal to equip Bomber with parasite fighter Me 328
except that is Mistelgespann means: Me 328 fly the He 177 full of explosive
I love Strange Technology

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2019, 04:22:49 pm »
but was it a real ?.

it's looking minimum Fighter Me 328

There were proposal to equip Bomber with parasite fighter Me 328
except that is Mistelgespann means: Me 328 fly the He 177 full of explosive

Or the first reason,to protect the mathership.

Offline athpilot

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2019, 02:42:13 am »
but was it a real ?.

it's looking minimum Fighter Me 328

There were proposal to equip Bomber with parasite fighter Me 328
except that is Mistelgespann means: Me 328 fly the He 177 full of explosive

Or the first reason,to protect the mathership.

Both is correct. This particular drawing in #48 is from Fritz Hahn "Flugzeugbewaffnungen" (p.407). He mentions both: a parasite fighter for defence of the He-177 on it´s one way trip to the USA and as a explosive carrier.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2019, 03:21:24 am »
If we take this drawing literally, it wouldn't make much sense as a Mistel explosive carrier, I think.
Still to be fitted with gun turrets would be unlikely then, and AFAIK, German Mistels for air-to-ground
missions were generally fitted with shaped charge warheads.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2019, 05:18:03 am »
If we take this drawing literally, it wouldn't make much sense as a Mistel explosive carrier, I think.
Still to be fitted with gun turrets would be unlikely then, and AFAIK, German Mistels for air-to-ground
missions were generally fitted with shaped charge warheads.

OK my dear Jemiba.

Online sienar

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2019, 08:26:16 am »
Probably just a proposed use of piggybacking on the 177 for testing. Maybe there were concerns about the 217 not having enough power for the extra drag of the 328 with engines?

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heinkel He 177/277/274 Variants and Projects
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2019, 10:27:53 am »
As the Me 328 was proposed as parasite fighter, the only suitable way to carry it probably would have
been piggy-back. The same for using it as independent attack aircraft, I think, the carrying bomber would
have kept his full armament in the case of a parasite fighter, his bomb load, too.
But as a Mistel, with the He 177 used as a missile, just stuffing the fuselage full of explosives probably
wouldn't get the best efficiency.
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