What if no Vietnam War?

[Orionblamblam]

Why no Viet Nam? Because Nixon wins in '60 (he did anyway, but that's another story). With Nixon instead of JFK, no Viet Nam, no Great Society, and Apollo is very likely *very* different. *Perhaps* NASAs directive is changed: instead of getting to the Moon ASAP, the US ends up with a Nova program. Maybe the Russians get to the Moon first, but the US is orbiting million pound payloads by 71 or so. No JFK, perhaps no test ban treaty, so some of those Nova payloads are *Orions.* With a vastly different and much more entrenched space program, the aerospace industry as a whole is kicked into high gear. With that stronger base and a much better economy due to no Great Society moneypits, the US gets SSTs, "battlecruiser" interceptors, high-Mach recon planes.

With a simple change in Presidents in 1960, everything else changes. 1968 almost certainly doesn't have the same raft of political assassinations (and of course there wouldn't be the fairly recent memory of JFK in Dallas). Without those, maybe cities don't burn. Of course, there could be a completely *different* set of assassinations, and even more cities burn. If society is more stable, everybody is richer; VTOL regional/short range jetliners perhaps get off the ground. *Maybe* the OPEC oil embargo doesn't happen and the economy of the 1970s is actually *good,* so SSTs and VTOL jets can be economically successful.

Lots of maybes.

 

[uk 75]

Meanwhile back at the weapons...
The US Army had three key stillborn programmes in the Vietnam years.
A new main battle tank (MBT70) an infantry combat vehicle (MICV) and an attack helicopter (AH56 Cheyenne).
Maybe without the distraction of war in SE Asia these would have been sorted out.

 

[Pioneer]

Meanwhile back at the weapons...
The US Army had three key stillborn programmes in the Vietnam years.
A new main battle tank (MBT70) an infantry combat vehicle (MICV) and an attack helicopter (AH56 Cheyenne).
Maybe without the distraction of war in SE Asia these would have been sorted out.

In which case, you're emphasising the retention of focus on Europe?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[uk 75]

In which case, you're emphasising the retention of focus on Europe?

Regards

yes of course. That happened after 1975 in our timeline so given Soviet military power there yes.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Meanwhile back at the weapons...
The US Army had three key stillborn programmes in the Vietnam years.
A new main battle tank (MBT70) an infantry combat vehicle (MICV) and an attack helicopter (AH56 Cheyenne).
Maybe without the distraction of war in SE Asia these would have been sorted out.

I know squadoo about the MICV, but the AH-56 was done in by, among other things, being too technologically aggressive; the MBT70 by making the driver sick by being off center in the turret. The tech problems with the SH-56 could have been solved in time. the MBT70 was kind of a flawed concept at least in that one area.

 

[yeetmahboi]

No JFK, perhaps no test ban treaty, so some of those Nova payloads are *Orions.*

With Orions, could we see more impetus to push mass nuclear power into the grid? That will have exciting consequences for the Navy.

 

[Orionblamblam]

With Orions, could we see more impetus to push mass nuclear power into the grid? That will have exciting consequences for the Navy.

If "no VN" means "no mass hippie-like movement" in the sixties, then the 1970's and beyond would have been much less likely to have been plagued with anti-nuclear activists. Greenpeace was formed about 1970; with no VN activist base to build on, it might have never existed. With reduced anti-nuclear politics, the Three Mile Island accident, had it occurred the same, might have been seen in a saner light as the non-event it truly was.

And if "no VN" was because "no JFK," then ANP might not have been cancelled in March 61. Unlikely that ANP would have resulted in a nuclear powered aircraft anytime soon, but work on the aircraft reactors might have led to, say, commercial thorium reactors in the 70's.

 

[Nicknick]

Imagine, all the phantastic music of the late 60th and early 70th would have never happened....

 

[Pioneer]

I know squadoo about the MICV, but the AH-56 was done in by, among other things, being too technologically aggressive; the MBT70 by making the driver sick by being off center in the turret. The tech problems with the SH-56 could have been solved in time. the MBT70 was kind of a flawed concept at least in that one area.

Orionblamblam, I'm assuming the MICV in question, would be in relation to the MICV-65 program, approved in March 1964. In June 1964 Pacific Car & Foundry was awarded a contract for its Infantrt Combat Vehicle XM701 design.
-The XM701 was based the chassis of the M107/110 SPG.
-The XM-701 had a crew of three (commander, gunner and driver), plus nine infantrymen into the rear compartment.
-Combat loaded, the steel XM701 weighted 54,050 pounds, the aluminum XM701 version 50,750 pounds.
-Armament - a steel two man turret armed with a 20mm M39 auto cannon and a 7.62mm M73 coaxial machine gun.

Nothing came out from the XM-701.
The prototypes were delivered in early 1965, but after a grualling serie of tests, proved to be a disappointment.
The MICV-65 program was eventually terminated, but still ready as a "back up". The MICV-70 program went up to the final M2 Bradley with sixteen years to materlize.

(Note: First pic of XM701 prototype,
Second pic of XM701 pilot model)

(Source: https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/US/XM-701.php)

Regards
Pioneer

 

[1635yankee]

Why no Viet Nam? Because Nixon wins in '60 (he did anyway, but that's another story). With Nixon instead of JFK, no Viet Nam, no Great Society, and Apollo is very likely *very* different. *Perhaps* NASAs directive is changed: instead of getting to the Moon ASAP, the US ends up with a Nova program. Maybe the Russians get to the Moon first, but the US is orbiting million pound payloads by 71 or so. No JFK, perhaps no test ban treaty, so some of those Nova payloads are *Orions.* With a vastly different and much more entrenched space program, the aerospace industry as a whole is kicked into high gear. With that stronger base and a much better economy due to no Great Society moneypits, the US gets SSTs, "battlecruiser" interceptors, high-Mach recon planes.

With a simple change in Presidents in 1960, everything else changes. 1968 almost certainly doesn't have the same raft of political assassinations (and of course there wouldn't be the fairly recent memory of JFK in Dallas). Without those, maybe cities don't burn. Of course, there could be a completely *different* set of assassinations, and even more cities burn. If society is more stable, everybody is richer; VTOL regional/short range jetliners perhaps get off the ground. *Maybe* the OPEC oil embargo doesn't happen and the economy of the 1970s is actually *good,* so SSTs and VTOL jets can be economically successful.

Lots of maybes.

Of course, the cities were burning because of issues simmering since the premature end of Reconstruction. Whether Nixon cared about those issues is moot.

How military programs are affected would include continuation of the AAM above all else that dominated thinking at that time.

 

[zjz]

Watched all 5 episodes of the documentary in one day .....

Turning Point: The Vietnam War​

https://www.netflix.com/sg/title/81756795
I must say, for someone like myself who has very little knowledge, I learned a lot about the Vietnam War ...........

 

[yeetmahboi]

Watched all 5 episodes of the documentary in one day .....

Turning Point: The Vietnam War​

https://www.netflix.com/sg/title/81756795
I must say, for someone like myself who has very little knowledge, I learned a lot about the Vietnam War ...........

unfortunately Turning Point is region blocked here in Vietnam, else I could've put my ma's dusting account to good use

 

[TinWing]

Without the Vietnam War, there’s far more limited SIGINT, no SEAD, hence no Wild Weasels, Shrikes or Standard ARMs. Defense suppression by the time of the Gulf War will exist but will be far more limited. The irony is that American military power would have been far more credible without the defeat in Vietnam, while at the same time we would have been far less prepared for an actual air war with the Soviets over Central and Eastern Europe.

Of course, without the valuable lessons of Vietnam, you’re more likely to see a major intervention in the Middle East during the 1973 oil embargo. As it actually happened, Nixon was embattled with Watergate at the time but was considering occupying the oil fields. Without the horrors of Vietnam, Nixon most likely would have gone all in.

Nixon most likely would have won in 1968 even without the unpopular Vietnam War and Tet Offensive. The domestic riots (over 100 cites on fire) probably motivated more of Nixon’s “silent majority” than Vietnam. If anything, Nixon’s voters were probably far more supportive of the draft than Humphrey’s, hence the appeal of Nixon’s “Peace With Honor.” That was a brilliant compromise position, at least politically.

The inflation of the 1970s probably would have been less severe without the massive Vietnam specific military spending. Inflationary pressures started in Kennedy era and the surge in silver prices was an early warning of what was to come. Still, without the massive printing of money to pay for Vietnam, the final end of the gold standard might have happened years later than 1971.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Imagine, all the phantastic music of the late 60th and early 70th would have never happened....

Imagine, if all the young people who died with a hypodermic needle stuck in their arm had lived to do something useful.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Technological superiority is useless in the hands of lawyers. Patton would have won, McArthur would have won... The lawyers waged a "police" war and won.

 

[Rule of cool]

Without the Vietnam War, there’s far more limited SIGINT, no SEAD, hence no Wild Weasels, Shrikes or Standard ARMs. Defense suppression by the time of the Gulf War will exist but will be far more limited. The irony is that American military power would have been far more credible without the defeat in Vietnam, while at the same time we would have been far less prepared for an actual air war with the Soviets over Central and Eastern Europe.

I watched a doco on the USN - Soviet naval shadow boxing in the Med that occurred as a result of the 1973 Arab - Israeli war and it was emphasised that by 1973 the 3 USN Phantom squadrons on the 2 carriers were "Mig Killers" first and foremost. It was theorised that if the US did intervene in this war these 3 Phantom squadrons would be dominant in the air-to-air battle, likely better than the Israelis whose F4E crews were dual role trained.

That is a direct outcome of the Vietnam War.

 

[Nicknick]

Imagine, if all the young people who died with a hypodermic needle stuck in their arm had lived to do something useful.

You mean,like devasting a country without proper reasons? Making musik for eternity (well as long as humans last...) is surly a greater archievment....

 

[zen]

Ok so what happens to Skybolt?

Cuban Missile Crisis?

Who succeeds Nixon?

If F12 enters service, do some get stationed to the UK, elsewhere?

If SST goes ahead, does it fail?
But....if GE.4 is productionised......do we get marine GE.4?

 

[Lc89]

May I suggest creating a new thread similar to this one, with the name "9/11 doesn't happen. What would have changed?"

 

[Colonial-Marine]

I don't know if the MBT-70 in its planned form would have worked out, but I still have to imagine the US Army would get a new MBT before the M1 Abrams entered service OTL.

 

[Desertfox]

May I suggest creating a new thread similar to this one, with the name "9/11 doesn't happen. What would have changed?"

Thats a great idea! You should make one.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Meanwhile back at the weapons...
The US Army had three key stillborn programmes in the Vietnam years.
A new main battle tank (MBT70) an infantry combat vehicle (MICV) and an attack helicopter (AH56 Cheyenne).
Maybe without the distraction of war in SE Asia these would have been sorted out.

The Cheyenne was largely driven by the need for a helicopter that could keep up with the Chinook (entering service in 1963/64). Loaded Chinooks cruise at 175, and a lightly loaded Chinook can hit 200 if they're close to a fuel barn. So it depends on just how close the helicopter staging areas were to the predicted front lines in Europe, but if they were similar to what was in Vietnam it'd be looking at ~15 miles from base to LZ X-ray.

I think all the fancy firecontrol gear was just a step beyond what the state of the art could actually provide, though the Cheyenne could eventually get there by about 1972-74. Maybe, without the pressures of Vietnam needing a helicopter escort RIGHT NOW, it'd be possible to get the Cheyenne finished instead of the AH1 Cobra.

If the Cheyenne did happen, I'd assume that it'd get a fresh batch of avionics (that went into the Apache in our timeline) in the 1980s, and got refitted with Hellfires instead of TOWs at that time.

Hopefully the Cheyenne would keep the 4 plumbed stations, so that it could fly across the Atlantic instead of needing to be stuffed into a C-5 or whatever. (Very useful ability!)

Imagine, all the phantastic music of the late 60th and early 70th would have never happened....

That would have been a tragic loss in this timeline...

May I suggest creating a new thread similar to this one, with the name "9/11 doesn't happen. What would have changed?"

Man, I cannot even imagine a time without 9/11, and I was in the military before then!

 

[Michel Van]

My take on US and Soviet Space programs
with out Vietnam War those programs got more money (why Soviet are Wildcard here, later in text)

USAF take over Gemini from NASA but no M.O.L. since that catch up by Technology making manned operation unnecessary.
Maybe as manned Satellite inspector or resupply mission to Spy Sats to replace the film canisters by EVA.
Apollo Program will see at last two more Saturn V build. (and more Saturn IB and Apollo CSM LM)
but that program depends on soviets action (more below), it could end with Apollo 19 and two Skylabs, then shuttle program.
if Soviets not land cosmonaut on Moon, the chances are high After Apollo NASA face major budget cuts by Capitol Hill,
mean no Apollo application program and similar Shuttle as in our timeline.

The Soviet Wildcard
Litte unknown fact was USSR help the Vietnamese allot, financial, Weapons, ammunition, instructors
With help of China the USSR transported massive amounts of Material by Train to Vietnam
But production and Aid to Vietnam encumbered the Soviet Budget.

With out Vietnam war the Soviet have money and capacity to spend for other projects like the Moon Race.
they could have take different route with Lunar landing plans or continue programs like Zond program.
Means they could theoretical land cosmonaut on Moon during Apollo program under President Richard M. Nixon. (correct false name)
This would change Space Race completely since Soviet counter the US effort in Space Race.
Nixon has to answer the Soviet Moon landing, maybe following vice President advice for Manned Mars Landing in 1980s.

 

[1635yankee]

My take on US and Soviet Space programs
with out Vietnam War those programs got more money (why Soviet are Wildcard here, later in text)

USAF take over Gemini from NASA but no M.O.L. since that catch up by Technology making manned operation unnecessary.
Maybe as manned Satellite inspector or resupply mission to Spy Sats to replace the film canisters by EVA.
Apollo Program will see at last two more Saturn V build. (and more Saturn IB and Apollo CSM LM)
but that program depends on soviets action (more below), it could end with Apollo 19 and two Skylabs, then shuttle program.
if Soviets not land cosmonaut on Moon, the chances are high After Apollo NASA face major budget cuts by Capitol Hill,
mean no Apollo application program and similar Shuttle as in our timeline.

The Soviet Wildcard
Litte unknown fact was USSR help the Vietnamese allot, financial, Weapons, ammunition, instructors
With help of China the USSR transported massive amounts of Material by Train to Vietnam
But production and Aid to Vietnam encumbered the Soviet Budget.

With out Vietnam war the Soviet have money and capacity to spend for other projects like the Moon Race.
they could have take different route with Lunar landing plans or continue programs like Zond program.
Means they could theoretical land cosmonaut on Moon during Apollo program under President Robert M. Nixon.
This would change Space Race completely since Soviet counter the US effort in Space Race.
Nixon has to answer the Soviet Moon landing, maybe following vice President advice for Manned Mars Landing in 1980s.

Richard M. Nixon, not Robert.

Nixon was not a fan of the space program. Of course, it's also not unlikely he doesn't get elected without Vietnam.

The US was involved, at some level, in Vietnam from shortly after the French withdrawal, although troops, except advisors and trainers weren't publicly present until the Kennedy administration.

The War in Vietnam revealed a lot of internal problems with the US military, the Selective Service System (Trump got classified as 4F for bone spurs; a high school friend was classified 1A despite needing bilateral hearing aids and another was 1A despite a motorcycle accident that left him with a severe limp, after having both legs broken, including one with no less than 22 fractures and all sorts of pins and screws putting it together), and the racial problems due to state-supported terrorism

 

[Archibald]

Richard M. Nixon, not Robert.

Robert was McNamara (surprised nobody ever called him VietNamara).

Fun fact: the M stands for Milhouse - same name as Bart Simpsons annoying best friend. Which of course was deliberate character assassination by Matt Groening, who definitively has some weird fetish with the late Watergate president (his talking head in a jar... WDF).

As for the family name - van Houten - Milhouse shares it with one of Charles Manson murderous groupies. Oh, shit: I wasn't 100% sure about that one, then this happened - https://simpsonsfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Leslie_Van_Houten https://screenrant.com/simpsons-tv-show-milhouse-name-dark-inspiration/

Milhouse Van Houten... all in the name ! Just think about it: the Simpsons started in 1989, Bart and Milhouse were already a fixed 11 years old. Which means Milhouse weirdo parents picked his name in the late 1970's... talk about very uninspired idiots (well we know that Milhouse father is a sore looser).

Nixon hated NASA but he had a few excuses : Spiro Agnew, Tom Paine and George Mueller pie-in-the-sky STG plans, and in the Shuttle days of 1971, a pitched battle between PSAC (Ed David science advisors) and OMB (Cap Weinberger's bean counters). PSAC couldn't say whether the Shuttle made technical sense. OMB couldn't say whether it made economic sense. IT was a complete mess.

The Shuttle countless economic studies only agree on one point : flying more favors reusability and drop costs... in theory. We all know how the theory ended by July 2011.

 

[Justo Miranda]

I wonder how many good things the 58,220 young Americans killed in this stupid war could have done for their country, how many died later from rock and drugs, and how many journalists would have dedicated themselves to doing something useful without the pretext of war. The media of the fifth column became oracles of a leftist future that has led us to the current situation and when the Soviet Union could no longer finance it, the monster got new sources of funding from other European and Eastern elites’ enemies of the United States. Qui prodest?

 

[1635yankee]

Why no Viet Nam? Because Nixon wins in '60 (he did anyway, but that's another story). With Nixon instead of JFK, no Viet Nam, no Great Society, and Apollo is very likely *very* different. *Perhaps* NASAs directive is changed: instead of getting to the Moon ASAP, the US ends up with a Nova program. Maybe the Russians get to the Moon first, but the US is orbiting million pound payloads by 71 or so. No JFK, perhaps no test ban treaty, so some of those Nova payloads are *Orions.* With a vastly different and much more entrenched space program, the aerospace industry as a whole is kicked into high gear. With that stronger base and a much better economy due to no Great Society moneypits, the US gets SSTs, "battlecruiser" interceptors, high-Mach recon planes.

With a simple change in Presidents in 1960, everything else changes. 1968 almost certainly doesn't have the same raft of political assassinations (and of course there wouldn't be the fairly recent memory of JFK in Dallas). Without those, maybe cities don't burn. Of course, there could be a completely *different* set of assassinations, and even more cities burn. If society is more stable, everybody is richer; VTOL regional/short range jetliners perhaps get off the ground. *Maybe* the OPEC oil embargo doesn't happen and the economy of the 1970s is actually *good,* so SSTs and VTOL jets can be economically successful.

Lots of maybes.

Considering that Nixon was an ardent cold warrior, and expanded the war into Laos and Cambodia, I'd like to see some support for the statement that US involvement in Vietnam wouldn't have happened wete he elected (he lost) in 1960

 

[Scott Kenny]

Considering that Nixon was an ardent cold warrior, and expanded the war into Laos and Cambodia, I'd like to see some support for the statement that US involvement in Vietnam wouldn't have happened wete he elected in 1960

The expansion into Laos and Cambodia was because the VC were using those countries to travel through.

It's a lesson that the US forgot in the War in Afghanistan, with the Taliban hiding in Pakistan where the US wasn't operating.

But okay.

1960 1964 election, with the infamous single-run ad showing a little girl playing in a field of flowers, then a nuclear explosion, then the face of Nixon(iirc).

Have someone tell Ho to back off the Communist side and really play up the Nationalist side of his beliefs. Remind Nixon that the only reason Ho went Communist is because Woodrow Wilson snubbed him clear back during the Treaty of Versailles but the Russians didn't.

Arrange a big rapproachment with the US about Ho abandoning communist ideology for US backing against China (easy sell to the Vietnamese, because they really hate the Chinese and still celebrate a victory against the Chinese some 400 years later!). Clean out a massively corrupt South Vietnam government, unified country in ~1963 or so, Vietnam is now a US ally and Carriers routinely visit Haiphong Harbor.

Edit: fixed date.

(he lost)

Nixon lost by a single precinct in Texas. By a single box of ballots that was "missed" in earlier counts. A box that JFK took a picture of, and placed in the White House. (JFK and iirc the Campaign Manager standing next to the ballot box)

A precinct run by an old school Sheriff, that voted the way he said it did. A Sheriff that was called by the Kennedy campaign after most of the votes were counted, and all of a sudden one last box of ballots was found.

All of this is found in the Kennedy presidential library.

But no, US elections have never been tampered with.

 

[1635yankee]

The expansion into Laos and Cambodia was because the VC were using those countries to travel through.

It's a lesson that the US forgot in the War in Afghanistan, with the Taliban hiding in Pakistan where the US wasn't operating.

But okay.

1960 election, with the infamous single-run ad showing a little girl playing in a field of flowers, then a nuclear explosion, then the face of Nixon(iirc).

Have someone tell Ho to back off the Communist side and really play up the Nationalist side of his beliefs. Remind Nixon that the only reason Ho went Communist is because Woodrow Wilson snubbed him clear back during the Treaty of Versailles but the Russians didn't.

Arrange a big rapproachment with the US about Ho abandoning communist ideology for US backing against China (easy sell to the Vietnamese, because they really hate the Chinese and still celebrate a victory against the Chinese some 400 years later!). Clean out a massively corrupt South Vietnam government, unified country in ~1963 or so, Vietnam is now a US ally and Carriers routinely visit Haiphong Harbor.



Nixon lost by a single precinct in Texas. By a single box of ballots that was "missed" in earlier counts. A box that JFK took a picture of, and placed in the White House. (JFK and iirc the Campaign Manager standing next to the ballot box)

A precinct run by an old school Sheriff, that voted the way he said it did. A Sheriff that was called by the Kennedy campaign after most of the votes were counted, and all of a sudden one last box of ballots was found.

All of this is found in the Kennedy presidential library.

But no, US elections have never been tampered with.

The US more than forgot; Pakistan was an ally in the war on terror but whether it was one of the US or Daesh is not well-defined. It was -- or at least some of its government agencies -- were active supporters of terrorism.

------

I've long suspected a lot of independence and pro-democracy movements became "communist" for similar reasons that Ho may have, although Wilson was also a racist; he'd never accept self-determination's application to non-whites.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The US more than forgot; Pakistan was an ally in the war on terror but whether it was one of the US or Daesh is not well-defined. It was -- or at least some of its government agencies -- were active supporters of terrorism.

Yes, the US really should have stomped the active supporters of terrorism, even if they were the major intelligence agency of an ally.

But that's not a discussion for this thread.

I've long suspected a lot of independence and pro-democracy movements became "communist" for similar reasons that Ho may have, although Wilson was also a racist; he'd never accept self-determination's application to non-whites.

This definitely would not surprise me. Wilson was an absolute bastard.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Considering that Nixon was an ardent cold warrior, and expanded the war into Laos and Cambodia, I'd like to see some support for the statement that US involvement in Vietnam wouldn't have happened wete he elected (he lost) in 1960

Had JFK had a different breakfast on January 3, 1963, Viet Nam might not have happened. Slight changes can have massive effects. So replacing JFK with Nixon in January of 1961, a *lot* would almost certainly have changed. What are the chances that the Gulf of Tonkin would have happened under Nixon rather than LBJ?

 

[Rule of cool]

Without the Vietnam war the Australian Army might have divested itself of the Main Battle Tank capability.

Australian Army officers were very reluctant to send tanks to Vietnam, indeed when the highest-ranking Armoured Corps officer was OIC of 1ATF in Vietnam in 1967 he recommended against it. At the time Australia started trialling the M551 Sheridan and as a stopgap fitted Saladin Armoured Car 76mm gun turrets to M113s. Also, 1ATF borrowed six US Army M108 SP guns, for use in the direct fire role in Vietnam.

Tanks were deployed to Vietnam in early 1968 and by the time the M551 trials concluded in July 1968 the old Centurions had performed so well in combat that Main Battle Tanks were cemented in the Australian Army's force structure. That the M551 hadn't been outstanding in its trials probably helped.

 

[yeetmahboi]

Have someone tell Ho to back off the Communist side and really play up the Nationalist side of his beliefs. Remind Nixon that the only reason Ho went Communist is because Woodrow Wilson snubbed him clear back during the Treaty of Versailles but the Russians didn't.

Arrange a big rapproachment with the US about Ho abandoning communist ideology for US backing against China (easy sell to the Vietnamese, because they really hate the Chinese and still celebrate a victory against the Chinese some 400 years later!). Clean out a massively corrupt South Vietnam government, unified country in ~1963 or so, Vietnam is now a US ally and Carriers routinely visit Haiphong Harbor.

Ratio was 3:7 in favor of the CCP-backed party, so no. If you want to snub the CCP out of Vietnam's revolutionaries it'd have to go way earlier to French influences.

 

[Rule of cool]

The Vietnam War was a major catalyst for the development of AWACS aircraft. The ECE121 when from being an oceanic barrier early warning aircraft as late as 1965 to providing radar cover deep into North Vietnam to assist the Rolling Thunder missions 2 years later. By 1972 these early 50s vintage aircraft had not only shown the battle management capabilities of airborne radar warning and control but also what areas had to be improved to increase effectiveness.

 

[BlackBat242]

1960 election, with the infamous single-run ad showing a little girl playing in a field of flowers, then a nuclear explosion, then the face of Nixon(iirc).

1964 election...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_(advertisement)

"Daisy", sometimes referred to as "Daisy Girl" or "Peace, Little Girl", is a controversial American political advertisement that aired on television as part of Lyndon B. Johnson's 1964 presidential campaign. Though aired only once, it is considered one of the most important factors in Johnson's landslide victory over the Republican Party's candidate, Barry Goldwater, and a turning point in political and advertising history. A partnership between the Doyle Dane Bernbach agency and Tony Schwartz, the "Daisy" advertisement was designed to broadcast Johnson's anti-war and anti-nuclear positions. Goldwater was against the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and suggested the use of nuclear weapons in the Vietnam War, if necessary. The Johnson campaign used Goldwater's speeches to imply he would wage a nuclear war.

The commercial begins with three-year-old Monique Corzilius standing in a meadow, picking the petals of a daisy as she counts from one to ten incorrectly. After she reaches "nine", she pauses, and a booming male voice is heard counting the numbers backward from "ten", in a manner similar to the start of a missile launch countdown. A zoom of the video still concentrates on the girl's right eye until her pupil fills the screen, which is then replaced by the flash and sound of a nuclear explosion. A voice-over by Johnson states emphatically:
These are the stakes! To make a world in which all of God's children can live, or to go into the dark. We must either love each other, or we must die.

The ad was pulled after its initial broadcast, but it continued to be replayed and analyzed by media, including the nightly news, talk shows, and news broadcasting agencies. The Johnson campaign was widely criticized for using the prospect of nuclear war, and implying that Goldwater would start one, to frighten voters. Several other Johnson campaign commercials would attack Goldwater without referring to him by name. Other campaigns have adopted and used the "Daisy" commercial since 1964.

 

[Christopher Wang]

HISTORY LESSON: Today marks 80 years since the abdication of Emperor Bảo Đại on August 25, 1945, marking the end of the 143-year monarchal reign of the Nguyễn dynasty over Vietnam. The fall of the Nguyễn dynasty occurred during Vietnam's August Revolution of August 13 thru 28, 1945, when the Việt Minh under Ho Chi Minh overthrew the Empire of Vietnam near the end of WWII. This would be followed by Ho Chi Minh declaring the independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam on September 2, 1945.


Ho Chi Minh (left) and Bảo Đại (right), September 1945

 

[Scott Kenny]

Who succeeds Nixon?

Depends on when he gets elected. Nixon in 1960 likely means no LBJ Great Society, or at least a significantly smaller impetus behind it. Assuming Nixon gets reelected in 1964, now the question is who wins in 1968.

But I absolutely want Carter in office in 1976-1980 so he knows exactly how much of a non-event Three Mile Island is. Ideally not elected in 1972 and reelected in 76, though.

If F12 enters service, do some get stationed to the UK, elsewhere?

Maybe. F-12Bs were replacements for F-106s, and IIRC F-106s never went to Europe.

That said, F-12Bs doing a regular patrol across the GIUK Gap would be a possible thing. Parking an F-12 squadron at Gander and one "somewhere in the UK" and having the planes fly from UK to Gander or vice-versa would be an option.

The original plan was 93 birds. I'm guessing that's 7 squadrons of 12 plus the OT&E squadron of 9. I would station a squadron in Alaska, a squadron in Hawaii, a squadron in ~Washington state, OT&E in California, two squadrons on the East Coast, and two squadrons either in the northern US (Dakotas, probably) or maybe in Canada. One of the Canada-based squadrons would likely end up in Gander. That would allow each squadron to put 2 birds up pretty close to 24/7.

If SST goes ahead, does it fail?
But....if GE.4 is productionised......do we get marine GE.4?

I think the SST was viable, as long as the 1973 Oil Embargo doesn't happen. But with no Vietnam, I strongly suspect that the Soviets would look to the Middle East as a place to leverage versus the US. Even moreso than they did historically.

Marine GE4 is an interesting discussion point. It'd need a separate power turbine to the props, of course. If my math is mathing, a Marine GE4/J5 is looking at 100,000hp(!). I'm not sure what ships would need that much power in a single unit.

 

[apparition13]

The original plan was 93 birds. I'm guessing that's 7 squadrons of 12 plus the OT&E squadron of 9. I would station a squadron in Alaska, a squadron in Hawaii, a squadron in ~Washington state, OT&E in California, two squadrons on the East Coast, and two squadrons either in the northern US (Dakotas, probably) or maybe in Canada. One of the Canada-based squadrons would likely end up in Gander. That would allow each squadron to put 2 birds up pretty close to 24/7.

As I understand it, the 93 figure was for the initial order, with 216 for the final number procured.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ned-interceptor’-imi-program.423/#post-386723

 

[Rule of cool]

I absolutely want Carter in office in 1976-1980 so he knows exactly how much of a non-event Three Mile Island is.

You have just blown my mind!

Carter was a Nuclear Engineer in the Navy; you couldn't get a better President for Three Mile Island than him.

 

[publiusr]

Who succeeds Nixon?

An Agnew Presidency following a Nixon assassination would be the best possible history for Apollo/Saturn...that and a small asteroid strike.