Britain in Vietnam

uk 75

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
27 September 2006
Messages
5,744
Reaction score
5,637
One of Harold Wilson's achievements as Prime Minister was to resist President Johnson's pressure for Britain to make some visible military contribution to the Vietnam War.
Wilson had only narrowly beaten a Conservative Government in 1964. The Conservatives may well have resisted Johnson too on the grounds that Britain was involved in too many commitments already.
The most likely contribution would have been a Gurkha unit operating with the Australians and New Zealanders.
The SAS were rumoured to have had some people in Vietnam and RAF transport aircraft did visit Saigon. Some UK military personnel may have served briefly with American units.
UK forces were pretty stretched in the 1964 to 1973 period. For example it would have been hard to find a spare aircraft carrier to serve on the Yankee Station.
 
Known quotes are that US requested boots on the ground in any form: a unit of bagpipers...the Black Watch.

Wilson took credit for not doing so, but insofar as he agreed the Threat was PRC/USSR invading more than S.Vietnam, he sustained the inherited commitment to SEATO, by placing a CV thereabouts to 23/1/72, Canberra B15 plus detached Vulcans, Tengah, to 8/71, AW-armed.
 
British usually fight wars to win them....
so did Johnson.. the victory condition he was seeking was a status quo ante and they had a shot of getting that until Nixon blew up the Paris talks behind the scenes.

And before people take a pot shot about that last part I will ask if they have checked the Nixon Library at Loma Linda or their website on the matter? If they haven't they will be extremely disappointed once they have: Everything is there and been written about by their own historian; from promising the South Vietnamese a better deal if they walked away..all the way to the seeking an interval peace with the North to open the way with the PRC.

All Johnson wanted from Britain was a battalion. For which he was offering massive support for the Pound and two SCB-125's converted at US expense...
 
The scenario requires either Wilson liking Johnson personally far more than IRL... or being able to look past his personal loathing for the man, at least enough to be willing to take the heat at home politically. Lets stipulate that happens and the UK deploys a battalion and lets Eagle and Victorious spend some time on Yankee station from time to time.. intervention would most likely been at a point that keeps Victorious from going to the breakers timing wise.

Lessons learned in Malaysia are passed more directly to people, which would be helpful and something is going to have to be done about helping the RN have a decent fighter workable from Victorious, and with F-8 production being about maxed they may have to pull Tigers from storage or at least think about it.. really depends on the year Wilson changes his position.
 
Last edited:
British usually fight wars to win them....
so did Johnson.. the victory condition he was seeking was a status quo ante and they had a shot of getting that until Nixon blew up the Paris talks behind the scenes.

And before people take a pot shot about that last part I will ask if they have checked the Nixon Library at Loma Linda or their website on the matter? If they haven't they will be extremely disappointed once they have: Everything is there and been written about by their own historian; from promising the South Vietnamese a better deal if they walked away..all the way to the seeking an interval peace with the North to open the way with the PRC.

All Johnson wanted from Britain was a battalion. For which he was offering massive support for the Pound and two SCB-125's converted at US expense...

That thing with Chennault's wife in the fall of 1968 ?
 
Fighter-wise, Lightnings would be cool kicking MiG-21 rear ends; unfortunately their range from Udorn, Thailand is hopeless - but wait, they could aerial refueling ?
Wonder how F-4K would have fared against MiGs.

Rolling Thunder Vulcans and Victors, now that would be something.
 
British usually fight wars to win them....
so did Johnson.. the victory condition he was seeking was a status quo ante and they had a shot of getting that until Nixon blew up the Paris talks behind the scenes.

And before people take a pot shot about that last part I will ask if they have checked the Nixon Library at Loma Linda or their website on the matter? If they haven't they will be extremely disappointed once they have: Everything is there and been written about by their own historian; from promising the South Vietnamese a better deal if they walked away..all the way to the seeking an interval peace with the North to open the way with the PRC.

All Johnson wanted from Britain was a battalion. For which he was offering massive support for the Pound and two SCB-125's converted at US expense...

That thing with Chennault's wife in the fall of 1968 ?
yup... HR. Haldeman took copious notes which were finally made public a few years back. Madame Chiang...

EDIT: To expand a bit on this, the violation of the Tet truce really, REALLY pissed of the South Vietnamese, not just their government.. enlistments went up by massive amounts and men stopped trying to avoid their draft inductions into the army in as large if not larger numbers! The repulsing of the offensive also shifted the view of legitimacy of government and US positions substantially... they truly wanted to hurt the North, to do them substantial damage and Johnson was intent on using that to play "good cop/bad cop" with the North, to get them to agree to a return to Status Quo and have everyone just chill...Nixon played on that with whispers of a better deal down the road after he won in '68 they would do massive damage to the North...yadayada.

Yup it really happened, Johnson was aware of it and it weighed on his decision to run again.
 
Last edited:
Not sure how this image would have gone down in 1960s Britain.
 

Attachments

  • 74258.jpg
    74258.jpg
    116.8 KB · Views: 34
Labour won near the end of 1964, effectively government didn't really get going until 1965.

It would have been a major conflict inside the Cabinet, the Party and the Establishment as a whole if Wilson had involved Britain while continuing down the route that led to decisions in 1966 to '67.
In fact it would seem impossible to sustain both positions of abandonment of East of Suez, while getting involved in the Vietnam conflict.
Something would have to give.
 
Labour won near the end of 1964, effectively government didn't really get going until 1965.

It would have been a major conflict inside the Cabinet, the Party and the Establishment as a whole if Wilson had involved Britain while continuing down the route that led to decisions in 1966 to '67.
In fact it would seem impossible to sustain both positions of abandonment of East of Suez, while getting involved in the Vietnam conflict.
Something would have to give.
Looks like the UK is not abandoning East of Suez to me.
 
Looks like the UK is not abandoning East of Suez to me
Which is a problem for anything but a 'for show' minor force deployed just so cameras can take pictures of them.
Actual forces used, cost a lot.

Which means if the US is paying, then it all gets difficult even if UK forces are cheaper than US forces.
 
Looks like the UK is not abandoning East of Suez to me
Which is a problem for anything but a 'for show' minor force deployed just so cameras can take pictures of them.
Actual forces used, cost a lot.

Which means if the US is paying, then it all gets difficult even if UK forces are cheaper than US forces.
year of involvement is going to be important.. if the UK goes in before '68 then they are going to get ground forces caught up in Tet and that is going to come with a body count no matter what even with a battalion operating as a training unit in Saigon
 
I read something on this the other week, but can't remember where, it was a reader's letter I think of someone's father who flew Hastings into Laos/Cambodia in 1962-63 era with Aussie/New Zealand SAS who were infiltrating into North Vietnam.

Realistically a battalion isn't going to change anything. Neither would one carrier, Sea Vixens against MiG-21s? No thanks. Buccs might be useful but there are no LGBs, no LLTV, no FLIR, no advanced ground mapping radars, a Vulcan/Victor with early 1950s H2S isn't going to do anything a B-52 couldn't do and an F-111 would probably be superior - when the new avionics are working properly.

Wilson's parliamentary majority was just 4 in 1964, the March 1966 snap election was just before Johnson's pleading so politically he might have held on but the Left Wing of the Labour Party would never have forgotten or forgiven (just as Blair is tainted today) and given the economic situation and devaluation it might have toppled him and brought in a Conservative Heath government sooner.
Sure there would be plenty of protests, student sit ins, CND marches, "counter-culture" stuff for those in the metropolitan elite who were part of all that stuff, probably nothing to seriously affect things.

Of course the EoS costs would skyrocket, something would have to snap unless the US dolled out a ton of cash to avoid the IMF loans and the debt (political and economic) would have far more dangerous consequences in terms of economic blackmail.
 
I cannot see Wilson being able to give way to Johnson.
But 1964 was a close run thing and if Sir Alec Douglas Home had won instead with a similar majority?
This period of UK history has now been covered in some detail.
Maudling would have had to make the same hard choices as Chancellor. So TSR2 and co still go. The RAF wanted the US alternatives anyway and were fed up with UK industry. The fifth Polaris might have survived. CVA01 is another matter. Again the budget would have loomed but US help might then come into play.
Unlike TSR2 and P1154 CVA01 meant orders for F4 Phantoms and possibly US AEW and COD planes. SACLANT valued the UK contribution to the NATO Striking fleet.
As Hood says Sea Vixens would not have been use against Mig 21s but Buccaneer S2s would have come in handy as well as a few 4.5 in on the gun line (or a Tiger class).
Naval contribution to Vietnam would be less risky but still signal cooperation with the US.
A Gurkha batallion operating with the Australians and New Zealanders would be within the scope of the UK's resources perhaps with a Hunter squadron or detachment in support.
V Bombers were routinely detached to Singapore until the 70s so a mission could have been flown. But relations with Nixon were worse than with Johnson and Kissinger was not so keen on the Brits either.
All in all Wilson was on the money staying out but the Tories might have been less wise.
 
It's even more complex.
Certainly Establishment made Wilson's government harder and did exacerbate the financial problems.

So it's not quite so clear those extremes would occure under a Tory Government.
The whole rouge MI5 office in Belfast doing a Black Propaganda operation on Wilson and a feedback loop in the Establishment driving figures to plot a coup wouldn’t happen under Home....who would only be interim until a MP could be found acceptable.....
Heath?
Rab Butler?
Enoch Powell?

Industry approach doesn't mean exact repetition of Labour and Wilson stating "we're getting out if the aircraft business".
TSR.2 likely headed for the chop, not just financially but because analysis shows Mach 1 at low level isn't worth the cost. F111 might be desired but rational analysis will throw up same conclusions as TSR.2.
F111 for ADV however is a more rational conclusion.....for as long as USN F111B is live.

P.1154 Harrier For RAF is another problematic issue.
Not guaranteed there will be infatuation with French AFVG as an alternative, nor Anglo-French Supersonic Trainer to save the day by a back door process.
No guarantee on Concord either.
F4K/M maybe.....but maybe not.
P.1154 could carry on.

CVA-01. Actual jobs verses Labour solidarity......chopping F111B as OR.346 solution and Buccaneer mkIII instead preserves jobs, keeps production going and replaces losses over Vietnam.........
No QE2 possibly.
 
Also I frankly do NOT see the UK letting Nixon's shenanigans slide if they have troops in the field. Johnson barely did... that leaks out and Nixon is toast and Humphrey is President. Hubert is a good man that has one particular advantage here: No one hates his guts or even considers him a jerk.

Johnson was willing to deal HARD for British support to give a more international peace keeping flavor to Vietnam. If as I have read the US was willing to pay the cost to convert 2 untouched Essex class to Hancocks to keep the RN in the game, it really is not that hard a thing to just have the US "loan/give" the cash to build one CVA-01.. it might even save money.
 
All Johnson wanted from Britain was a battalion. For which he was offering massive support for the Pound and two SCB-125's converted at US expense...
A battalion at first perhaps but a UK commitment to Vietnam would hardly end there would it? USAians like that axiom about giving a mouse a cookie don't they?

I'm certain many in Whitehall were leery about a US President mentioning the Pound after the last time that happened. #thanksIke As for the Essexi, as I may have mentioned before, even giving the RN a US warship for free doesn't necessarily make it a good idea operationally, logistically, personnel-wise etc. There is a bit of a thing on this board of just dumping a big grey lump at Pompey and away we go!
 
Massive support got cut suddenly after 1945 around the same time UK was excluded from Manhattan results.
Not forgotten after Suez!
Not likely to be forgotten in '65 either.
Worse it was Democrats who had mooted giving all of Europe to USSR. The Administration of FDR was rife with Soviet sympathisers.
Forgotten?
Not a chance.
Wilson had been in government during the war.
Home was older. Do we think he didn't learn the same experience?

America had pushed Britain to get out of Empire. Get out of the world.
Not forgotten.

Massive guarantees needed. Upfront.
Essentially fund CVA-01 and we'll talk about it.
 
Massive support got cut suddenly after 1945 around the same time UK was excluded from Manhattan results.
Not forgotten after Suez!
Not likely to be forgotten in '65 either.
Worse it was Democrats who had mooted giving all of Europe to USSR. The Administration of FDR was rife with Soviet sympathisers.
Forgotten?
Not a chance.
Wilson had been in government during the war.
Home was older. Do we think he didn't learn the same experience?

America had pushed Britain to get out of Empire. Get out of the world.
Not forgotten.

Massive guarantees needed. Upfront.
Essentially fund CVA-01 and we'll talk about it.
Britain was given more Marshall plan aid than West Germany, roughly 33% more, about $2.7 billion total. Then there was the $4 billion loan on top of that for a total of $6.7 billion in 1940's dollars, roughly $134 BILLION in todays money. BBC has an excellent article on what Britain did with that money instead of rebuilding British industry.

Democrats are the ones who set up NATO... Soviet sympathizers? Well there was Hopkins; but I raise you Kim Philby and the Cambridge five, at least two of which were passing atomic secrets to the Soviets, including American ones. Then there was Fuchs and the two or three other British physicists that were spying for the Soviets.. Britain was not excluded from Manhatten until 1947.. Fuchs at least was suspected before '45 because of VENONA intercepts. Sorry but I always push back on any variation of the "democrats were weak" line... this thread itself is based on the democrats being an aggressive check on Soviet expansion...even when it was politically unpopular and costly and have never once given the slightest doubt that the US would honor article five enthusiastically.

I don't think it was so much about forcing Britain out of empire and more about forcing Britain to either set the empire free or give them a seat in parliament.. I know at least in the case of Malta Britain declined to annex into the UK proper because it would have been a drain on the treasury.

I would see no issue in funding CVA-01... an Essex conversion is what about 60% of the cost of a new build IIRC the Australian study, so if the US was willing to go for 2 that saves them cash.
 
All Johnson wanted from Britain was a battalion. For which he was offering massive support for the Pound and two SCB-125's converted at US expense...
A battalion at first perhaps but a UK commitment to Vietnam would hardly end there would it? USAians like that axiom about giving a mouse a cookie don't they?

I'm certain many in Whitehall were leery about a US President mentioning the Pound after the last time that happened. #thanksIke As for the Essexi, as I may have mentioned before, even giving the RN a US warship for free doesn't necessarily make it a good idea operationally, logistically, personnel-wise etc. There is a bit of a thing on this board of just dumping a big grey lump at Pompey and away we go!
No I get the logistics of an Essex deal... but as an example of the USN being more than willing to spend roughly $120 million period money to keep the RN in the carrier game, this works to justify the (checks RAN carrier plan to eyeball a cost estimate).. substantially smaller amount of cash it would cost to build a single CVA-01
 
zen #20: I'm with bd #21 here in resisting a Yankophobe slant on modern military history. There were reasons for each of the negatives you list: we don't need to agree with them, but we can recognise them. Example: McMahon 1/4/46 did not steal our Bomb, nor that of Canada, Free France, Free Denmark, Free Hungary. He put US Bombs under control of USAEC, a civilian Agency answerable to the Pres. USAF did not gain control of any Bomb until GA Ike became POTUS. So, clearly, Brit paws must be prised off too.

When one's Ally is a gorilla, one must tread warily...and be eternally grateful he is our Ally...not the bad guys'.
 
One of Harold Wilson's achievements as Prime Minister was to resist President Johnson's pressure for Britain to make some visible military contribution to the Vietnam War.
Wilson had only narrowly beaten a Conservative Government in 1964. The Conservatives may well have resisted Johnson too on the grounds that Britain was involved in too many commitments already.
The most likely contribution would have been a Gurkha unit operating with the Australians and New Zealanders.
The SAS were rumoured to have had some people in Vietnam and RAF transport aircraft did visit Saigon. Some UK military personnel may have served briefly with American units.
UK forces were pretty stretched in the 1964 to 1973 period. For example it would have been hard to find a spare aircraft carrier to serve on the Yankee Station.

Would be like Australians, but then with British soldiers and equipment.
 
Britain was given more Marshall plan aid than West Germany, roughly 33% more, about $2.7 billion total. Then there was the $4 billion loan on top of that for a total of $6.7 billion in 1940's dollars, roughly $134 BILLION in todays money. BBC has an excellent article on what Britain did with that money instead of rebuilding British industry.

Democrats are the ones who set up NATO... Soviet sympathizers? Well there was Hopkins; but I raise you Kim Philby and the Cambridge five, at least two of which were passing atomic secrets to the Soviets, including American ones. Then there was Fuchs and the two or three other British physicists that were spying for the Soviets.. Britain was not excluded from Manhatten until 1947.. Fuchs at least was suspected before '45 because of VENONA intercepts. Sorry but I always push back on any variation of the "democrats were weak" line... this thread itself is based on the democrats being an aggressive check on Soviet expansion...even when it was politically unpopular and costly and have never once given the slightest doubt that the US would honor article five enthusiastically.

I don't think it was so much about forcing Britain out of empire and more about forcing Britain to either set the empire free or give them a seat in parliament.. I know at least in the case of Malta Britain declined to annex into the UK proper because it would have been a drain on the treasury.
A lot there to unpack.
Britain threw everything it had at WWII, and ran out of money in 1943, it would have been '42 but for the Belgian Gold Reserves.
4 billion turned into 3 in two weeks of trading thanks to certain US imposed clauses. Only dropped when the sheer idiocy of them was inescapable.

The days of citing the BBC as a reputable source are at least half a decade ago if not more.

As for traitors in our midst. Nice counter argument, but avoids the US penetration and sympathiser issue, that led to Mccarthy. The whole West was riddled (still is) with Communist Sympathisers and lurking among their number, those who were compromised.

Ejecting the British from Empire was definitely on the US agenda.

Citing Malta as an example????!!!

My point is from the Patriotic UK perspective, the men at the time would not see it the US way, not remember history the US version and not assume US guaranteesare any more viable than those given under the duress of war.
I grant you today even among the UK population, it is treated as something to be ashamed of (vigorously pushed by the Media) and so difficult to grasp.
Such problem barely existed among the leadership or the general population back in 1965.
 
Britain was given more Marshall plan aid than West Germany, roughly 33% more, about $2.7 billion total. Then there was the $4 billion loan on top of that for a total of $6.7 billion in 1940's dollars, roughly $134 BILLION in todays money. BBC has an excellent article on what Britain did with that money instead of rebuilding British industry.

Democrats are the ones who set up NATO... Soviet sympathizers? Well there was Hopkins; but I raise you Kim Philby and the Cambridge five, at least two of which were passing atomic secrets to the Soviets, including American ones. Then there was Fuchs and the two or three other British physicists that were spying for the Soviets.. Britain was not excluded from Manhatten until 1947.. Fuchs at least was suspected before '45 because of VENONA intercepts. Sorry but I always push back on any variation of the "democrats were weak" line... this thread itself is based on the democrats being an aggressive check on Soviet expansion...even when it was politically unpopular and costly and have never once given the slightest doubt that the US would honor article five enthusiastically.

I don't think it was so much about forcing Britain out of empire and more about forcing Britain to either set the empire free or give them a seat in parliament.. I know at least in the case of Malta Britain declined to annex into the UK proper because it would have been a drain on the treasury.
A lot there to unpack.
Britain threw everything it had at WWII, and ran out of money in 1943, it would have been '42 but for the Belgian Gold Reserves.
4 billion turned into 3 in two weeks of trading thanks to certain US imposed clauses. Only dropped when the sheer idiocy of them was inescapable.

The days of citing the BBC as a reputable source are at least half a decade ago if not more.

As for traitors in our midst. Nice counter argument, but avoids the US penetration and sympathiser issue, that led to Mccarthy. The whole West was riddled (still is) with Communist Sympathisers and lurking among their number, those who were compromised.

Ejecting the British from Empire was definitely on the US agenda.

Citing Malta as an example????!!!

My point is from the Patriotic UK perspective, the men at the time would not see it the US way, not remember history the US version and not assume US guaranteesare any more viable than those given under the duress of war.
I grant you today even among the UK population, it is treated as something to be ashamed of (vigorously pushed by the Media) and so difficult to grasp.
Such problem barely existed among the leadership or the general population back in 1965.
A note on McCarthy... he was a political opportunist who GROSSLY overstated any Soviet sympathizers in the government... the man was a level of trash bordering on being nothing more than a leather sack filled with wet farts.
 
zen #20: I'm with bd #21 here in resisting a Yankophobe slant on modern military history. There were reasons for each of the negatives you list: we don't need to agree with them, but we can recognise them.
Ken
Since the Bash the Brits and Trust the Yanks version of history is obviously put forward relentlessly as much from domestic Leftwing media and universities as it is from the colossal output of the US.
It is frankly conformity and subservience to only put forward points that support that kind of narrative. It is dishonest and propaganda.

The context is a UK perspective, it doesn't matter why the US did what they did, it only matters what they did.
Why is only to explain their motivations, and in context, not 'go native' and favour their view.
Wilson and Home both would be asking hard questions and bargaining hard for the UK without favour or prejudice to the US.
Both knowing that the US could turn around and scrap any guarantees it was giving after the next US Presidential election if not the Senate.

Tread warily indeed, but suffer no illusions. States have no friends, only interests.
 
Last edited:
A note on McCarthy... he was a political opportunist who GROSSLY overstated any Soviet sympathizers in the government... the man was a level of trash bordering on being nothing more than a leather sack filled with wet farts.
Was he?
Was he really?

You don't get how pervasive the Communist ideology was.
 
A note on McCarthy... he was a political opportunist who GROSSLY overstated any Soviet sympathizers in the government... the man was a level of trash bordering on being nothing more than a leather sack filled with wet farts.
Was he?
Was he really?

You don't get how pervasive the Communist ideology was.
The key to the man was his nickname: Tail gunner Joe.

He was a lawyer in the Marine corps, he would take joy rides in the rear gun position and blow thru a belt of ammo killing water.. he ran as a war hero.

So yeah he really was a douche bag.

EDIT: Should make it clear he was assigned to a rear area... not a combat unit.
 
Last edited:
A note on McCarthy... he was a political opportunist who GROSSLY overstated any Soviet sympathizers in the government... the man was a level of trash bordering on being nothing more than a leather sack filled with wet farts.
Was he?
Was he really?

You don't get how pervasive the Communist ideology was.
The key to the man was his nickname: Tail gunner Joe.

He was a lawyer in the Marine corps, he would take joy rides in the rear gun position and blow thru a belt of ammo killing water.. he ran as a war hero.

So yeah he really was a douche bag.

EDIT: Should make it clear he was assigned to a rear area... not a combat unit.
Maybe he was, I don't know, what I do know is McCarthy emerged as a response to the realisation of how completely FDR's administration had been infiltrated by Soviet leaning people. Arguably, China was lost because of their interference that made the complete t**t Chiang look so much worse than the complete t**t Mao. Both were dreadful, Chiang would have been better not only for the West but also for China. I don't say he would have been good, but I do say he would have resulted in fewer dead Chinese people and speaking of Vietnam, no safe rear area for the Viet Minh/Cong to retreat to.
 
Even with only a single battalion, I shudder to think about what a Vietnam involvement cost and morale stain would have done to late 1970's Great Britain.
The 1970's were already an economy and social nightmare OTL with Ireland on top of that; throw a limited Vietnam into this, and GB is even lower by 1979. Pink Floyd, the punks, would be crazy over it.

August 1969 with both Ireland troubles and Vietnam erupting would be a nightmare.

And the first half of 1972 with Bloody Sunday and NVAF final offensive...

Ugly. Very ugly.

For the record, the last week of January 1968 was so atrocious (USS Pueblo + North Korea + Têt offensive) one very baffled US diplomat (or politician) famously wrote
"Thanks God, that month is finally over !"

Same for Great Britain, except stretched over a decade and a half (1965 - 1980).
 
Hmmm.....
Being deeply cynical, I wonder if NI would ever have been so troubled if Home and maybe Powell had been PM.
Don't forget, America had Vietnam, but UK had Malayan emergency and 'Konfrontasi' with Soviet stooge Sukarno. Not enough bandwidth to take on another problem.
And yet.......imagine recruitment of Dyak tribesmen to fight in Vietnam......
 
A note on McCarthy... he was a political opportunist who GROSSLY overstated any Soviet sympathizers in the government... the man was a level of trash bordering on being nothing more than a leather sack filled with wet farts.
Was he?
Was he really?

You don't get how pervasive the Communist ideology was.
The key to the man was his nickname: Tail gunner Joe.

He was a lawyer in the Marine corps, he would take joy rides in the rear gun position and blow thru a belt of ammo killing water.. he ran as a war hero.

So yeah he really was a douche bag.

EDIT: Should make it clear he was assigned to a rear area... not a combat unit.
Maybe he was, I don't know, what I do know is McCarthy emerged as a response to the realisation of how completely FDR's administration had been infiltrated by Soviet leaning people. Arguably, China was lost because of their interference that made the complete t**t Chiang look so much worse than the complete t**t Mao. Both were dreadful, Chiang would have been better not only for the West but also for China. I don't say he would have been good, but I do say he would have resulted in fewer dead Chinese people and speaking of Vietnam, no safe rear area for the Viet Minh/Cong to retreat to.
McCarthy was part of a group of people that thought "Ike" was a communist, same group of people that took out a full page "wanted dead or alive" poster for JFK in Dallas... and that group is the one that had and has pushed the narrative you refer to. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230616257_7?noAccess=true. An interesting confluence of the right and left in blaming FDR but for different reasons: The right he was to left leaning (Note that their same financial backers of the accusers also backed a pro fascist coup against Roosevelt in the 30's)... and the left because he refused to shift support from Chiang to Mao, or have anything to do with Mao. Will include a footnote or two from the link here:

Report by Currie to Roosevelt, March 15, 1941, box 427 Roosevelt Papers; Visit to China of Lauchlin Currie file, March 3, 1941, DOS, Decimal File, 003.1193, RG 59; Currie to Roosevelt, ibid. Following up on Currie’s recommendation, the United States sent both a military and a civilian advisory mission to China to address transportation, currency, and military supply issues. The State Department also dispatched Owen Lattimore, an academic specialist on Asia, as a political advisor to Chiang. As with later American emissaries, they were largely ignored. By the late-1940s, Currie was accused of being a Soviet sympathizer or even spy. Although never charged, he left the United States. At least through early 1944, Currie was among Chiang’s most ardent supporters in Roosevelt’s inner circle, not an advocate for the Communists.Google Scholar

Daily diary entry of November 4, 1944, Stilwell Papers; Roosevelt to Hurley, October 14, 1944, box 88, folder 8, Hurley Papers; Hurley to Roosevelt, October 15, 1944, ibid.; Roosevelt to Chiang, via Hurley, October 18, 1944, ibid.; entry of November 3, 1944, vol. 48, Stimson Papers. Hurley was a flamboyant egotist and later a raving reactionary. Many Amerians who met him in China in 1944–1945 also thought he was mentally unstable. See the discussion in MacKinnon, et Al., China Reporting.

So we have a mentally unstable raving reactionary hurling accusations... that are not born out by objective reality.

The major reason the US never invaded the North was to not trigger the million Chinese pouring across the border response seen in Korea.... hard to make the case that the democrats were a bunch of commie sympathizers when they went to war in Korea and Vietnam to prevent communist expansion at substantial political cost to their party. Also it was the Democrats pushing Nixon to use US air power to assist the Republic of South Vietnam AS THEY HAD PREVIOUSLY GIVEN BLANKET AUTHORIZATION to do in holding off the NVA.... they also never, EVER stopped paying the bills, the last authorization was for half what Nixon sent to congress but was also twice what was actually expended by ARVN in the prior year.

It is worth noting that Nixon had been leaning on the ARVN to expend less ammunition for the prior 3 years, which they complied with, and then sending budget requests that were inflated in comparison: The last authorization IIRC was four times the amount of expended ordinance and the Democrats wrote a check for half that.. so twice what ARVN expended.

EDIT: I am the one who added the bold to the foot notes... usually I am to lazy to even attempt to use the cool board features.
 
Last edited:
Even with only a single battalion, I shudder to think about what a Vietnam involvement cost and morale stain would have done to late 1970's Great Britain.
The 1970's were already an economy and social nightmare OTL with Ireland on top of that; throw a limited Vietnam into this, and GB is even lower by 1979. Pink Floyd, the punks, would be crazy over it.

August 1969 with both Ireland troubles and Vietnam erupting would be a nightmare.

And the first half of 1972 with Bloody Sunday and NVAF final offensive...

Ugly. Very ugly.

For the record, the last week of January 1968 was so atrocious (USS Pueblo + North Korea + Têt offensive) one very baffled US diplomat (or politician) famously wrote
"Thanks God, that month is finally over !"

Same for Great Britain, except stretched over a decade and a half (1965 - 1980).
Moral stain depends on who wins the presidency in '68.. the psycho banana boat crap and illegal expansion of the war into Laos and Cambodia all took place under Nixon.

EDIT.. also despite how things looked in Chicago in '68 support for the war amongst younger folks was higher than it was with older folks in the '66-'67 time frame into '68... that took an express elevator down starting in '68
 
Last edited:
Ok this needs dealing with.
No one here is saying that the Democrats are innately Communist.
What is being said is that Communist Sympathisers and Agents had penetrated the US Establishment and obviously that would implicate FDR's regime.
As they had in every modern first world state.
It's also necessary to point out that essentially Vanguardism led to the Bolsheviks in Russia, the Fascists in Italy and the National Socialists in Germany. All derived from the realisation the proletariat are inherently conservative in outlook.
Soviet penetration of other states societies was itself a substantial but ultimately minor component of the whole and sleepers were discovered during the latter part of the Clinton years who had sacrificed their lives to become sleepers in yje US.

Sections of human society are always susceptible to the charismatic idea of a universal solution and the violent breakdown of civilisation in order to create a perfect utopia.....no matter the horrors committed to achieve it.
 
McCarthy was part of a group of people that thought "Ike" was a communist, same group of people that took out a full page "wanted dead or alive" poster for JFK in Dallas... and that group is the one that had and has pushed the narrative you refer to. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230616257_7?noAccess=true. An interesting confluence of the right and left in blaming FDR but for different reasons: The right he was to left leaning (Note that their same financial backers of the accusers also backed a pro fascist coup against Roosevelt in the 30's)... and the left because he refused to shift support from Chiang to Mao, or have anything to do with Mao.
The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Nothing good came from McCarthyism. Good riddance.
 
Back
Top Bottom