US forces with a second JFK term and shorter/no Vietnam war?

Elan Vital

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Hi everyone,

We have already discussed a shorter/no Vietnam scenario already so I will not ask for changes related to this. However, what I was wondering about is whether having a second JFK term (due to no assassination) instead of a Johnson term would affect 1963-1968 procurement in any way. Alterations to Vietnam are just consequences of JFK still being around.

Historically, Johnson kept mostly the same DoD leadership as JFK and many of the military programs of the time were started under Kennedy. So would anything change with him still being in charge? Was he likely to change his DoD team in his second term, or change military spending in a different way from Johnson?

The only specific procurement decision that seemed to change was the choice of armed UH-1 Hueys instead of the HU-2 Tomahawk based on the Kaman Seasprite, due to Hueys being produced in Johnson's Texas while Kaman was in Kennedy's Massachusetts.

Any other ideas?
 
The timeline variation isn't correct: no Vietnam war only in case of Nixon election rather than JFK.

JFK decided to increase the U.S. military presence before his death, Johnson followed the predecessor's policy.
The Gulf of Tonkin accident would happen even after JFK second mandate.
In case of JFK to Bob Kennedy handover Vietnam committement would be re-enforced, only to mantain the family's policy.

The fact that JFK would be so good and so nice to prevent or stop the war is a pure mythology.
By historical point of view is necessary to clear up the table of b/s and remain anchored to facts.

IMHO President Richard M. Nixon is always underlooked and undestimated, always.
 
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The timeline variation isn't correct: no Vietnam war only in case of Nixon election rather than JFK.

JFK decided to increase the U.S. military presence before his death, Johnson followed the predecessor's policy.
The Gulf of Tonkin accident would happen even after JFK second mandate.
In case of JFK to Bob Kennedy handover Vietnam committement would be re-enforced, only to mantain the family's policy.

The fact that JFK would be so good and so nice to prevent or stop the war is a pure mythology.
By historical point of view is necessary to clear up the table of b/s and remain anchored to facts.

IMHO President Richard M. Nixon is always underlooked and undestimated, always.
We can't be so absolute regarding Kennedy, the historian consensus seems to be that JFK was being very indecisive as of late 1963 and we can't tell for sure what his decision would have been in 65. As it is, he had agreed for removing 1000 out of 16k troops in SV at the time. Arguments in favor of a withdrawal is that JFK would have been in a 2nd term and no longer had the "soft on communism" pressure since the Cuban crisis. This is why I leave all options open. Also, I do not believe at all that the decision would be down to being "good and nice", there were plenty of military and political reasons to not escalate Vietnam too much even at the time, as shown by 1961-63 debates in the government.

Regardless this wasn't even the main point of the thread so can we adress the main question instead?
 
Money scheduled for Vietnam could have been spent on expanding the space program. President Kennedy, had he lived, could have called for a moon base. Plans were put in place in 1960. By contrast, with him gone, the U.S. would land on the moon in 1969, and the space program would sputter and fall into disarray in the 1970s as actually happened. I recall a news conference with President Kennedy that included a lunar lander. It consisted of all round shapes, unlike the design that was actually used.

This nonsense about Kennedy not wanting to get out of Vietnam has no basis in fact.
 
We can't be so absolute regarding Kennedy, the historian consensus seems to be that JFK was being very indecisive as of late 1963 and we can't tell for sure what his decision would have been in 65. As it is, he had agreed for removing 1000 out of 16k troops in SV at the time. Arguments in favor of a withdrawal is that JFK would have been in a 2nd term and no longer had the "soft on communism" pressure since the Cuban crisis. This is why I leave all options open. Also, I do not believe at all that the decision would be down to being "good and nice", there were plenty of military and political reasons to not escalate Vietnam too much even at the time, as shown by 1961-63 debates in the government.

Regardless this wasn't even the main point of the thread so can we adress the main question instead?

Which historians are you talking about? In a televised Rose Garden interview, President Kennedy made it clear. The U.S. would provide military equipment to a then non-existent South Vietnam, but no troops. This was a case of some in the Pentagon reliving the Korean War. Keep in mind, China detonated its first atomic bomb in October, 1964. In March, 1965, the first U.S. combat troops land in Vietnam. The fear was a repeat of the Russians detonating their first atomic bomb in 1949, followed by a proxy war in 1950 in Korea.
 
Money scheduled for Vietnam could have been spent on expanding the space program. President Kennedy, had he lived, could have called for a moon base. Plans were put in place in 1960. By contrast, with him gone, the U.S. would land on the moon in 1969, and the space program would sputter and fall into disarray in the 1970s as actually happened. I recall a news conference with President Kennedy that included a lunar lander. It consisted of all round shapes, unlike the design that was actually used.

This nonsense about Kennedy not wanting to get out of Vietnam has no basis in fact.
Didn't some people argue Kennedy already wanted to reduce the scope of the Space Program?
 
Which historians are you talking about? In a televised Rose Garden interview, President Kennedy made it clear. The U.S. would provide military equipment to a then non-existent South Vietnam, but no troops. This was a case of some in the Pentagon reliving the Korean War. Keep in mind, China detonated its first atomic bomb in October, 1964. In March, 1965, the first U.S. combat troops land in Vietnam. The fear was a repeat of the Russians detonating their first atomic bomb in 1949, followed by a proxy war in 1950 in Korea.
Admittedly I only read a bunch of the long articles that came out when I looked for "would JFK escalate Vietnam", but in any case the historians mentionned in the articles couldn't really conclude for sure, based on what JFK's contemporaries or colleagues said, and what he himself said and did. JFK seemed to be leaning towards caution however.
 
Admittedly I only read a bunch of the long articles that came out when I looked for "would JFK escalate Vietnam", but in any case the historians mentionned in the articles couldn't really conclude for sure, based on what JFK's contemporaries or colleagues said, and what he himself said and did. JFK seemed to be leaning towards caution however.

It would be better to have some facts before engaging in alternate history scenarios. The Rose Garden interview with President Kennedy was on television. In the Pacific Stars and Stripes (An Authorized Publication of the Armed Forces in the Far East) for October 4, 1963, an article was published. Here's the title: "White House Report -- U.S. Troops Seen Out of Viet by '65." Once again, President Kennedy would send military equipment to Vietnam, not troops.
 
Some randos on the Internet.

So Bob Nobody and friends, some of whom are bored out of their minds, post unsupported speculation online, and THAT becomes history? Never. Get a few good books on the subject. There are actual documents that clearly show what President Kennedy was thinking at the time.
 
Money scheduled for Vietnam could have been spent on expanding the space program. President Kennedy, had he lived, could have called for a moon base. Plans were put in place in 1960. By contrast, with him gone, the U.S. would land on the moon in 1969, and the space program would sputter and fall into disarray in the 1970s as actually happened.
If JFK would live after 1963, he couldn't do a single thing to speed up the Apollo Program. Apollo 1 accident would happen the same and the lunar landing would happen anyway with the Apollo 11 in July 1969. No way to have it before and no difference with a President or another.

The only difference would be that after JFK, his brother Bob would have his first mandate un 1968. Maybe Apollo follow up and no Shuttle. Maybe the Space Program would be sacrified on the altar of Civil Rights.

Regarding Vietnam the Gulf of Tonkin accident would happen anyway and JFK would be pressed to enter in War exactly like LBJ did. Nixon had all the political reasons to get out Vietnam (it was a Democrats' war) while the Kennedy's dynasty (John, Bob , Ted?, JohnJohn??) definitely not.

Whatever interview JFK would have before the war wouldn't be the same after the war start...
 
If JFK would live after 1963, he couldn't do a single thing to speed up the Apollo Program. Apollo 1 accident would happen the same and the lunar landing would happen anyway with the Apollo 11 in July 1969. No way to have it before and no difference with a President or another.

The only difference would be that after JFK, his brother Bob would have his first mandate un 1968. Maybe Apollo follow up and no Shuttle. Maybe the Space Program would be sacrified on the altar of Civil Rights.

Regarding Vietnam the Gulf of Tonkin accident would happen anyway and JFK would be pressed to enter in War exactly like LBJ did. Nixon had all the political reasons to get out Vietnam (it was a Democrats' war) while the Kennedy's dynasty (John, Bob , Ted?, JohnJohn??) definitely not.

Whatever interview JFK would have before the war wouldn't be the same after the war start...

In a report I read in the early 2000s, the former Commander of Vietnamese Naval Forces in the Gulf of Tonkin region had this answer when asked what happened: "Absolutely nothing." In a book published by the Naval Institute Press, this account is confirmed. The National Security Agency radio intercept service distorted events at the time.

I know what Robert Kennedy wanted for the United States. I was there, listening and watching as events unfolded.
 
The National Security Agency radio intercept service distorted events at the time.

So you're saying that the Gulf of Tonkin accident was a fake?

Ok it could be possible (I do not belive in conpirancy theories, I still think that it really happened and it was exploited by U.S. Gov to trigger the war), but why do you think it possible under LBJ and not under JFK?

The very same circumstances that leaded to the Gulf of Tonkin accident were in place regardless what President (JFK or LBJ) would be in charge. The Vietnam War Machine started to move well before the JFK's assassination and (as for the Pig's Bay) under his full responsibilities.
 
.
''While doubts regarding the perceived second attack have been expressed since 1964, it was not until years later that it was shown conclusively never to have happened. In the 2003 documentary The Fog of War, the former United States Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara admitted that the supposed August 4 attack, for which Washington authorized retaliation, never happened.[11] In 1995, McNamara met with former North Vietnamese Army[12] General Võ Nguyên Giáp to ask what happened on August 4, 1964. "Absolutely nothing", Giáp replied.[13] Giáp confirmed that the attack had been imaginary.[8] In 2005, an internal National Security Agency historical study was declassified; it concluded that Maddox had engaged the North Vietnamese Navy on August 2, but that the incident of August 4 was based on bad naval intelligence and misrepresentations of North Vietnamese communications.[5]

The outcome of the incident was the passage by U.S. Congress of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which granted U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson the authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by "communist aggression". The resolution served as Johnson's legal justification for deploying U.S. conventional forces to South Vietnam and the commencement of open warfare against North Vietnam''


 
Hi everyone,

We have already discussed a shorter/no Vietnam scenario already so I will not ask for changes related to this. However, what I was wondering about is whether having a second JFK term (due to no assassination) instead of a Johnson term would affect 1963-1968 procurement in any way. Alterations to Vietnam are just consequences of JFK still being around.

Historically, Johnson kept mostly the same DoD leadership as JFK and many of the military programs of the time were started under Kennedy. So would anything change with him still being in charge? Was he likely to change his DoD team in his second term, or change military spending in a different way from Johnson?

The only specific procurement decision that seemed to change was the choice of armed UH-1 Hueys instead of the HU-2 Tomahawk based on the Kaman Seasprite, due to Hueys being produced in Johnson's Texas while Kaman was in Kennedy's Massachusetts.

Any other ideas?
Kaman wasn't in Massachusetts; it was and is in Connecticut.
 
So you're saying that the Gulf of Tonkin accident was a fake?

Ok it could be possible (I do not belive in conpirancy theories, I still think that it really happened and it was exploited by U.S. Gov to trigger the war), but why do you think it possible under LBJ and not under JFK?

The very same circumstances that leaded to the Gulf of Tonkin accident were in place regardless what President (JFK or LBJ) would be in charge. The Vietnam War Machine started to move well before the JFK's assassination and (as for the Pig's Bay) under his full responsibilities.

The NSA falsified the information coming in. There was no attack on U.S. warships. That's no theory, it's documented. President Kennedy stated at the time that Vietnam would get U.S. military aid but no troops. As I wrote previously, this war was triggered by China,. Communist China, detonating their first atomic bomb. The Pentagon feared that Vietnam would be occupied by Communist Chinese troops so they wanted to divide the country into North and South just like they did with Korea in 1953, just 10 years earlier.
 
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Interesting reading:


A very poorly written article devoid of proper scholarship. President Kennedy was facing opposition not just from military people in the Pentagon, but people in the government who insisted he not give the Communists any advantage in Southeast Asia. Although the U.S. had "advisers" in Vietnam, just like the Russians had in Korea, they were there to report any changes. Anything that would indicate Chinese troops might be nearby. In Korea, the Russian advisers manned antiaircraft batteries and flew fighter aircraft. During his time in office, President Kennedy issued directives called National Security Action Memorandum. NSAM #263 stated that 1,000 troops would return home by the end of 1963, and all personnel would return by the end of 1965.

Look up NSAM #263.
 
Without a Johnson term, I'd expect that much of the social programs would not have happened. Beyond that I'm staying out of it.
 
Money scheduled for Vietnam could have been spent on expanding the space program. President Kennedy, had he lived, could have called for a moon base. Plans were put in place in 1960. By contrast, with him gone, the U.S. would land on the moon in 1969, and the space program would sputter and fall into disarray in the 1970s as actually happened. I recall a news conference with President Kennedy that included a lunar lander. It consisted of all round shapes, unlike the design that was actually used.

This nonsense about Kennedy not wanting to get out of Vietnam has no basis in fact.
Establishing and maintaining a base on the moon was beyond the technology of the time and
the cost would have been exorbitant. There's absolutely no way it could be self-sustaining so
it would have to be continually resupplied from the Earth. Also almost nothing was known of
the long term medical effects of living in low and null gravity.

Reset the spending of the period in any way you choose and the same problems remain, they
weren't of the sort that's solved by the simple expedient of throwing huge piles of money into
the space program.
 
Establishing and maintaining a base on the moon was beyond the technology of the time and
the cost would have been exorbitant. There's absolutely no way it could be self-sustaining so
it would have to be continually resupplied from the Earth. Also almost nothing was known of
the long term medical effects of living in low and null gravity.

Reset the spending of the period in any way you choose and the same problems remain, they
weren't of the sort that's solved by the simple expedient of throwing huge piles of money into
the space program.

Where does that come from? Plans were in place. The computer used on Apollo was less powerful than a pocket calculator from the 1990s.

 
Determining what any politician would or would not do is difficult. Politicians by their very nature are pragmatic and shift with the sands if they think there are votes in it. Or as JFK's contemporary Macmillan put it "events, dear boy, events".
JFK may well have reversed whatever reductions he had in mind given later events. He may have even caused later events which we can't even speculate.

As to procurement, with McNamara still running things its hard to see much change from what happened historically.
 
McNamara was running things? And the President was unaware of what McNamara was doing? Not credible.
 
McNamara remained in position when LBJ succeeded JFK. McNamara was hand-picked by JFK as defense secretary. I agree with Hood, a continued JFK presidency would have seen McNamara as defense secretary. With JFK aware of and agreeing with McNamara's policies.
 
Although I think it would be hard to resist escalation in the Vietnam war, but the specific timeline that ended up happening largely depended on specific decisions made by LBJ. What if JFK decided to improve the situation by sending more advisors, security teams for air bases and perhaps special forces as his first steps instead? What if the McNamara-Bundy memo that states that the US needs to either pull out or go in completely does lead to pulling out completely? What if JFK judges the political situation in the south to be so unstable and corrupt that even if they win militarily, pacification is impossible? McNamara was already disillusioned by fall '65. If things go just slightly different, its not guaranteed that a mass deployment of "boots on the ground" happen.

Lets assume that with the Tonkin Resolution in the bag, JFK send more advisors/trainers, security teams and special forces into the country, but declined bombing the North and continued to rely on the ARVN as the main fighting force. Initially, this proved to be somewhat successful, stopping the total collapse of the south. Combined with initial reforms under Ky and Thieu, performance of the ARVN increased slightly too. However, this was not enough to actually turn the tide and large swathes of the rural area remained under VC control. The Ted offensive in 68 proved to be far more successful than in our OTL; Quảng Trị and Thừa Thiên Huế were eventually lost completely, the rest of the regional capitals are only recaptures after months of fighting. The offensive still depleted the VC as a fighting force. Despite the huge costs of the war and almost 10k death in the last 4 years, the war played a surprisingly minor role in the '68 election, with domestic issues such as civil rights and the great society taking the main stage. In the end, LBJ barely manages to win despite not even reaching barely 44% of the vote because the conservative camp was split between Nixon and Wallace. Peace talks between North Vietnam began. With the VC shattered, a democrat in the White House and the threat of losing Quảng Trị and Thừa Thiên Huế again, North vietnam signed a peace treaty in '69.

So what changed?
-The war is still costly for the US in terms of life and dollars, but far less so than in OTL.
-Extensive bombing campaigns happen in South Vietnam and Laos, but no air war over North Vietnam.

The biggest changes to procurement could be in the air force:
-Without the experience of Vietnam, the F-111B might eventually be adopted.
-YF-12 likely still gets cancelled.
-With the F-111B existing but the YF-12 cancelled, the air force may be forced to adopt the F-111 as a fighter.
-The fighter mafia will be out in force, as the F-111 would be even less suitable than the F-14 and F-15 under their their view.
 
Another interesting reading, with both arguments pro or versus a JFK's engagement in Vietnam War:


More fiction. President Kennedy was a PT boat commander during the Second World War. He also knew that the CIA had stepped beyond its remit. It was little more than a reconstituted Office of Strategic Services. He took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs operation even though he was not actually responsible for the events as they unfolded. The responsibility lay with the CIA. That is why Kennedy fired Allen Dulles, and he vowed to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces. Presidents may come and go but the CIA is forever.

In a recent TV interview, Robert Kennedy Jr. mentioned the CIA in relation to events from 60 years ago. He stated that President Biden was going to release a document held by the CIA. It was Kennedy's plan to reorganize the Agency. Next, he blamed the CIA for the assassination of his uncle. The CIA responded: "That's a lie." The document in question was not released.

I am appalled at what passes for history today. Robert Kennedy Jr. is available to answer some important questions.
 
More likely that it wasn't initially viewed as anything else than minor incident with a lof of confusion and uncertanity.

What is this based on? The so-called Gulf of Tonkin incident was used as justification by President Johnson to send in combat troops. I was there as this escalation occurred.
 
Historians accord that the first accident happened while the second was "created".
But the same dynamics would happen also under JFK.
LBJ used that to trigger the war, maybe JFK would do the same maybe not.
My 2 cents is the he would do the same.
I'm always astonished about the "vulgata" (popular narrative) about the "good" Kennedys Vs the evil Johnson or the villain Nixon...
The political and historical premises for the Vietnam War were already in place when JFK was already in charge. If he survived his margin on maneuvering were really tight.
 
What is the source of the above? Where are the documents? Having lived during the time period, there was no evil Johnson or villain Nixon. That is not backed up by anything.
 
What is the source of the above? Where are the documents? Having lived during the time period, there was no evil Johnson or villain Nixon. That is not backed up by anything.

Nobody wants to deny your living in that period (since you are repeating it over and over like a mantra).

The fact that someone is a witness of a particular historical facts doesn't mean that have the complete comprehension of that phenomena.

Proofs?

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1694064715549.png ,


1694064737690.png

1694064776953.png
 
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Where Kennedy stood on Vietnam in September 1963 was:

1. Maintaining support of the Government of South Vietnam (under Diem or any other S. Vietnamese leader) to prevent the expansion of communism in SEA. He stated that the fall of Saigon would result in the fall of Thailand and later threaten India and others in the region. Therefore, it can be said that he subscribed to the Domino Theory in September 1963.
2. Believed that the war in Vietnam was a fight that needed to be fought by Vietnamese and supported by the US. US support, as in Europe, which he stated had been stabilized against communist aggression with the help of the US was what he intended to do in SEA. This was accomplished in a variety of ways, which included basing US forces in Europe. Therefore, one might assume that Kennedy was not opposed to placing US bases in Vietnam and manning them with regular forces.
3. He had escalated the number of US advisors in Vietnam to 11,000 men by September 1963 (47 Americans had died by this time in fighting along side their S. Vietnamese counterparts). Kennedy was prepared to send additional help to the S. Vietnamese, which he stated. These would have certainly been more advisors and Special Forces personnel, but certainly could have included US aircraft and naval assets.
4. CIA operations, sanctioned by Kennedy, against the North were an ongoing effort to destabilize the communist in 1963. These types of operations led to the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Kennedy believed in the force multiplier of technology and directed, small-clandestine, operations. These operations would have likely continued (whether it was CIA or US Army led).
5. Kennedy was happy that Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge (R) went to Vietnam as US Ambassador. Kennedy stated in September 1963 that it was better that Lodge went and not himself, because it was 'dangerous' for ones career to be steeped in the Vietnam issue with an upcoming election. Kennedy, with US civil rights issues, relatively high unemployment (5.6%), and proposed tax cuts to jumpstart the economy, were issues that needed to address in the 1964 election campaign. Adding the fight to suppress communism in Vietnam to the agenda would have complicated the domestic issue, especially considering the effort to fund its escalation.
6. Kennedy's military advisors were informing him that the military assistance the US was providing was making a difference in the fight against communism in SV, however the leadership of SV was making grave errors that undermined their efforts. Diem had imposed marshal law and launch raids against Buddhist pagodas that placed the SV government and military in a very bad light. Although, Diem was unpopular with the South Vietnamese, he was a stanch anti-communist and supported by the US for that reason. Diem's death and the chaos in the SV government that followed led to the distrust of the SV people in their government. There was little belief that an independent Vietnam was not going to come from an increase in US forces. Kennedy needed the SV leader to change his tactics or US military support would be withdrawn (see doc below).

Personally, I think Kennedy would have tried to keep US forces to a minimum in Vietnam and would have waited until after the 64' election to address wider scale US military support. The Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred in August 1964 and the election was in November 64'. This incident would have been a hot topic for those who may have thought Kennedy was 'soft' on communism. His detractors would have pressed for some form of retaliation (which, ultimately led Johnson to approve Operation Rolling Thunder in Feb 65 and Marine landings in March). Kennedy would have likely launched some form of reprisal after the election in 1965 as Johnson.

However, Kennedy seemed to favor letting local forces hash-out their issues and do battle amongst themselves with the aid of American support. As the old saying goes, 'Don't tell me what you'll do, show me what you've done' often asked and used as an indicator of what someone will do in the future. Kennedy was against sending troops in to aid in the Bay of Pigs invasion (trying to keep the US profile very low), he opposed first-strike and a military invasion of Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis (with concerns of escalating the situation), and in 1960 Kennedy sent advisors and SF troops to Laos to fight communist, but not regular forces (to allow local forces to resolve the issue with US support). I think Kennedy would have allowed the aerial and naval campaigns to expand in Vietnam after 1963, as this would have shown support to SV, but would have kept US forces in a position of relative safety with the ability to retract forces immediately if necessary. However, I do think he would have been dragged in to the deployment of US ground forces as the NV continued to increase their attacks against S Vietnam. It would then become a question of the scale of US forces and not whether he would or would not have sent them.
 

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More fiction about the so-called Gulf of Tonkin Incident. It did not happen.

From the U.S, Naval Institute site:

"A careful and rigorous examination of all other forms of evidence, including intercepted North Vietnamese naval communications that NSA had not yet released at the time the first edition of this book was published, lead to a firm conclusion that no attack occurred that night."
 
At this point of discussion doesn't matter if the Gulf of Tonkin was really or not.
It was made to make it happen.

It was treated as real at that times, a line of action came to it.
It worked for LBJ and it would work the very same for JKF.
 
At this point of discussion doesn't matter if the Gulf of Tonkin was really or not.
It was made to make it happen.

It was treated as real at that times, a line of action came to it.
It worked for LBJ and it would work the very same for JKF.

You seem to dislike John Kennedy. Or you think it is as simple as you present it. Both views are not historical. President Kennedy was greatly admired. He was recognized as a true leader, a true statesman. You should read some actual history. Nothing about what really happened can be supported or denied by one person's opinion. The U.S. Naval Institute, like myself, is interested in what actually happened. Opinions are not facts.
 
Nothing personal with Kennedy.
But the policy that LBJ carried on after his assassination is clearly in his footsteps.
 
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