Man in space

I'm trying to think about modern computer equipment could be replaced with non-silicon, non-microchip fare

In a recent phys.org story I linked to elsewhere yesterday, there was this story about rubber computing.

I have this idea that I your retro-futuristic world, we saw something like "The Difference Engine" occur in the recent past, with Ramanujan's house perhaps having inherited rubber-tree wealth...With Brunel and Goddard having some ties.

In this would, the Sea Dragon concept got looked at earlier by the Royal Navy no less...no balloon tanks, no shrunken circuitry.

If you have any access to AI, perhaps ask it to develop Spacecraft where all subsystems are as heavy as possible with Sea Dragon scaled to fit it...like there was a nearby magnetar to deal with...the Soviets had some access to wood for space.
 
publiusr said:
I'm trying to think about modern computer equipment could be replaced with non-silicon, non-microchip fare

In a recent phys.org story I linked to elsewhere yesterday, there was this story about rubber computing.

I have this idea that I your retro-futuristic world, we saw something like "The Difference Engine" occur in the recent past, with Ramanujan's house perhaps having inherited rubber-tree wealth...With Brunel and Goddard having some ties.

In this would, the Sea Dragon concept got looked at earlier by the Royal Navy no less...no balloon tanks, no shrunken circuitry.

If you have any access to AI, perhaps ask it to develop Spacecraft where all subsystems are as heavy as possible with Sea Dragon scaled to fit it...like there was a nearby magnetar to deal with...the Soviets had some access to wood for space.
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I must admit, I was discussing something like this on a discord server, debating how exactly the BIC might tele-control their spacecraft, and we came to the conclusion that the could use morse, rather than traditional binary, leading to more advancement with radio control earlier than expected.

A super heavy lift vehicle, developed by the Royal Navy would be doubtful in this timeline, as most (if not all) space-related matters are under the supervision of the BIC, however that doesn't mean there can't be A) military payloads (this is a prerequisite of most spaceflight programmes), and B) that there can't be sea-launched rockets, for example, the BIC's lunar payload booster, Daedalus, employs a sea launching platform.
 
In the USSR, you had the perfect storm of an emerging superpower on a war footing discovering secret German tech, lack of Boeing suits, betrayed by Western allies who propped up fallen axis powers and the Cosmists ideology with rockets as a symbol of Revolution to give the perfect environment for the rise of the Chief Designers and R-7.

Your scenario *demands* a non-existent RAF and no WWI.

A stronger Royal Navy working closer with Germany is a help ---but for rocketry to advance, I say aviation needs to take a hit.

That seems odd, but if the Wright Brothers had crashed and burned--with Goddard having Lindbergh's reception, the psychic stage is set.

Here, Korolev becomes a leading figure in Aviation and Russia aligns itself with the Ottoman empire against a Europe then untouched by war.

Germany, France and Britain then develop a love for space after an asteroid devastates Poland.

No aircraft carriers, LeMay and Rickover stillborn.
 
publiusr said:
In the USSR, you had the perfect storm of an emerging superpower on a war footing discovering secret German tech, lack of Boeing suits, betrayed by Western allies who propped up fallen axis powers and the Cosmists ideology with rockets as a symbol of Revolution to give the perfect environment for the rise of the Chief Designers and R-7.

Your scenario *demands* a non-existent RAF and no WWI.

A stronger Royal Navy working closer with Germany is a help ---but for rocketry to advance, I say aviation needs to take a hit.

That seems odd, but if the Wright Brothers had crashed and burned--with Goddard having Lindbergh's reception, the psychic stage is set.

Here, Korolev becomes a leading figure in Aviation and Russia aligns itself with the Ottoman empire against a Europe then untouched by war.

Germany, France and Britain then develop a love for space after an asteroid devastates Poland.

No aircraft carriers, LeMay and Rickover stillborn.
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That is a... interesting timeline, to say the least, lol. Here's how I envisaged it in my head:

So, naturally, ww1 and ww2 still happen, as this is necessary for rocket development to get to the V2. WW2 finishes, but the spoils of peenemunde are divvied up more equally that in our own timeline, allowing Britain to get its hands on a handful of German rocket scientists, but predominantly we got the engineers that built and launched them. Operation Backfire goes ahead as normal, but R.A Smith's "Megaroc" proposal actually gets approval by the ministry of Supply (reason why I'll get to in a moment). The BIS then saunters down to the backfire facilities in September of '46. They then commandeer the facilities and the personnel (under army supervision, naturally) to build megaroc.

A notice is then distributed to RAF bases in the vanquished Germany and across Britain, particularly amongst the RAE, asking pilots whether they would be interested in flying a "wholly new kind of craft". There are over 600 applicants, but only about 250 make it through the interviews, and the group is finally whittled down to 10 after the medical exams. This group of 10 men (largely RAE test-pilots, including Eric Winkle Brown and the main character of the game this is for, David Alastair Rathbone), are presented to the public in April of '47, with the press calling them "The Megaroc Men".

They are then trained on the craft, which Eric dubbed "A most peculiar thing", using an operational mock-up of the cabin, suspended by a cable so that the pilot could be trained in control of orientation and spin. The pilots were also trained in the tele-control of an unmanned rocket and cabin assembly in free flight.

At last, after some 7 months of rigorous training, David Rathbone stepped into the Megaroc Capsule "Icarus", on the morning of November 5th 1947, and ascended to an altitude of 300km.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, how exactly was there funding to go around for this? Essentially, it is a combination of two major changes to the timeline: Roosevelt doesn't die in '45, and instead saunters on into 1954, where he then kicks the bucket. AND Stalin is more open with the west, and accepts Marshall Plan Aid, under the recommendation of Commissar Litvinov.

With Russia no longer seen as the next big enemy to defeat, this removes much of the Cold War tension, so funding for further A-Bomb tests is now redundant as there is no enemy now to use them on. This allows funding to be shifted around to more scientific-oriented projects, such as the Miles M.52, which Winkle used to break the sound barrier first in this timeline, spawning a bit of a "friendly rivalry" between the US and UK, and the soviets, not wanting to be outdone but also not wanting to compete directly with the west, do the same things but for anniversaries of the Party, for example, such as the launch of their first man in space.

hope this helps
 
I'm still not quite sure about the mooncalf shit though, particularly my idea about the selenites riding them. If they did, then maybe the mooncalf would resemble a blend between the original illustrations, a victorian dinosaur and a millipede (because it is a little strange that the Selenites would evolve to be ant-like, but the surrounding fauna wouldn't take a similar path).

When it comes to riding them, I really really don't want to rip off dune, lest I be beaten with hammers by the Herberts, so how do I go about this? Perhaps the selenites could use lures made of the plankton to attract and keep the calf moving forward, but how do I let the selenite steer the mooncalf without ripping off the maker-hooks from Dune? 1716808106978.png 1716808117603.png 1716808125709.png 1716808134169.png
 
The 'hooks' make sense, possibly with an attatched backstrap too for the rider to lean against ? (If anyone asks, call it a hommage to Herbert's work) :)
 
True, lol. Seeing as how the selenites treat the mooncalves more as horses than gods, perhaps they employ reigns with hooks that hook onto the millipedes mandibles? Plus on top of that maybe the reigns could have a built in seat that the rider leans against, rather than just a piece of rope?
TsrJoe said:
The 'hooks' make sense, possibly with an attatched backstrap too for the rider to lean against ? (If anyone asks, call it a hommage to Herbert's work) :)
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I say chaps, something that would be quite interesting to work with could be that this version of the moon has a Fossil Record. Admittedly, probably not a very large one, as conditions would be quite limiting, but still a fairly substantial record. I must say, this panel a gentleman posted on page 3 might be a good start, definitely there will be a moment like this in-game.
As for conditions, the moon did once have an atmosphere, and even a large subsurface ocean, so what sort of life might evolve and reside in such conditions? Air would still be fairly thin on the surface, and in the moons' interior.

any ideas?

1717672927612.png
 
I wonder if it might be worth contacting Stephen Baxter? As an sf writer, he's shown a continual interest in history's might-have-beens, particularly alternative history with the Brits in space. He's also collaborated with other authors, such as Arthur C Clarke and Terry Pratchett and the estate of HG Wells. Two spinoffs of that are a short story, 'The Ant Men of Tibet', inspired by The First Men in the Moon, and the novel, The Time Ships, inspired by The Time Machine, and The Massacre of Mankind, inspired by The War of the Worlds. He's obviously open to discussion if you want to make an approach. There's an early novel by him, Anti-Ice, that is kind of steampunk, inspired by Wells and Verne. and there are various short stories and a couple of novels in the past few years, World Engineers: Destroyer and World Engineers: Creator, which feature a classic dumbbell-shaped spaceship.

He's known for doing a LOT of research.
 
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Rhinocrates said:
I wonder if it might be worth contacting Stephen Baxter? As an sf writer, he's shown a continual interest in history's might-have-beens, particularly alternative history with the Brits in space. He's also collaborated with other authors, such as Arthur C Clarke and Terry Pratchett and the estate of HG Wells. Two spinoffs of that are a short story, 'The Ant Men of Tibet', inspired by The First Men in the Moon, and the novel, The Time Ships, inspired by The Time Machine, and The Massacre of Mankind, inspired by The War of the Worlds. He's obviously open to discussion if you want to make an approach. There's an early novel by him, Anti-Ice, that is kind of steampunk, inspired by Wells and Verne. and there are various short stories and a couple of novels in the past few years, World Engineers: Destroyer and World Engineers: Creator, which feature a classic dumbbell-shaped spaceship.

He's known for doing a LOT of research.
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It is done, didn't he write Voyage, now you mention it?
 
'Prospero One' is another of Stephen's shorts of possible interest (my favourite of his of course being 'Titan')

re. fossil record, might be worth looking at the Burgess Shale deposits as a parallel ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgess_Shale

Cambrian explosion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

and as a 'cut off point' for evolution deviation, possibly the Permian Extinction Event ? ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian–Triassic_extinction_event

(the latter may theoretically give rise to a different evolution path between the planets assuming a common 'porridge just right' start point ?)
 
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TsrJoe said:
'Prospero One' is another of Stephen's shorts of possible interest (my favourite of his of course being 'Titan')

re. fossil record, might be worth looking at the Burgess Shale deposits as a parallel ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgess_Shale

and as a 'cut off point' for evolution deviation, possibly the Permian Extinction Event ? ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian–Triassic_extinction_event

(the latter may theoretically give rise to a different evolution path between the planets assuming a common 'porridge just right' start point ?)
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perhaps, most life would probably reside in the great ocean beneath the moon's crust for much of its history, so maybe more Cambrian life would be appropriate?
 
Gentleman’s Astronautics said:
perhaps, most life would probably reside in the great ocean beneath the moon's crust for much of its history, so maybe more Cambrian life would be appropriate?
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From The First Men in the Moon, Chapter 22, Bedford describing Cavor's transmissions.

"The caverns and passages are naturally very torturous. A large proportion of these ways are known only to expert pilots among the fishermen and not infrequently Selenites are lost for ever in their labyrinths. In their remoter recesses, I am told, strange creatures lurk, some of them so terrible and dangerous that all the science of the moon has been unable to exterminate them. There is particularly the Rapha, an inextricable mass of clutching tentacles that one hacks to pieces only to multiply; and the Tzee, a darting creature that is never seen, so subtly and suddenly does it slay..."
[...]
"Among their catch was a many-tentaculate evil-eyed black thing, ferociously active, whose appearance they greeted with shrieks and twitters and which they hacked to pieces with quick nervous movements. All its dissevered limbs continued to lash and writhe in a vicious manner. Afterwards when fever had hold of me I dreamt again and again of that bitter, furious creature rising so vigorous and active out of the unknown sea. It was the most active and malignant thing of all the living creatures I have seen in this world inside the moon...

"The surface of this sea must be very nearly two hundred miles (if not more) below the level of the moon's exterior; all the cities of the moon lie, I learned, immediately above this Central Sea in such cavernous spaces and artificial galleries, as I have described, and they communicate with the exterior by enormous vertical shafts which open invariably in what are called by earthly astronomers the 'craters' of the moon.
 
Rhinocrates said:
From The First Men in the Moon, Chapter 22, Bedford describing Cavor's transmissions.

"The caverns and passages are naturally very torturous. A large proportion of these ways are known only to expert pilots among the fishermen and not infrequently Selenites are lost for ever in their labyrinths. In their remoter recesses, I am told, strange creatures lurk, some of them so terrible and dangerous that all the science of the moon has been unable to exterminate them. There is particularly the Rapha, an inextricable mass of clutching tentacles that one hacks to pieces only to multiply; and the Tzee, a darting creature that is never seen, so subtly and suddenly does it slay..."
[...]
"Among their catch was a many-tentaculate evil-eyed black thing, ferociously active, whose appearance they greeted with shrieks and twitters and which they hacked to pieces with quick nervous movements. All its dissevered limbs continued to lash and writhe in a vicious manner. Afterwards when fever had hold of me I dreamt again and again of that bitter, furious creature rising so vigorous and active out of the unknown sea. It was the most active and malignant thing of all the living creatures I have seen in this world inside the moon...

"The surface of this sea must be very nearly two hundred miles (if not more) below the level of the moon's exterior; all the cities of the moon lie, I learned, immediately above this Central Sea in such cavernous spaces and artificial galleries, as I have described, and they communicate with the exterior by enormous vertical shafts which open invariably in what are called by earthly astronomers the 'craters' of the moon.
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maybe the "many-tentaculate evil-eyed black thing" may still reside in the ocean (which has frozen over, several feet in certain places, but there's still water beneath), and perhaps the other two may make some great fossils the player could see in the walls, which became selenite legend?
 
Gentleman’s Astronautics said:
The US flag is an absolute given, but it would be the 49 star flag as Hawaii wasn't a state yet when the game takes place.
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Careful - since Alaska was admitted to the Union as the 49th State on January 3, 1959, and Hawaii was admitted to the Union as the 50th State on August 21, 1959, using 49 stars actually would narrow the time span of your game to less than eight months in 1959. Based on the timeline you've presented before, it sounds however like the whole game may well be over long before 1959, so for that you would have to use a US flag with 48 stars, assuming of course that the events of the game have no effect on both admission dates whatsoever.
 
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martinbayer said:
Careful - since Alaska was admitted to the Union as the 49th State on January 3, 1959, and Hawaii was admitted to the Union as the 50th State on August 21, 1959, using 49 stars actually would narrow the time span of your game to less than eight months in 1959. Based on the timeline you've presented before, it sounds however like the whole game may well be over before long before 1959, so for that you would have to use a US flag with 48 stars, assuming of course that the events of the game have no effect on both admission dates whatsoever.
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damn, I really should have looked more into that, thanks man, a revision will be made. Any ideas about the lunar fossil record?
 
martinbayer said:
A little proactive research often goes a surprisingly long way ;), but I'm drawing a complete blank when it comes to any lunar fossil record...
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true, I suppose research is why we're where we are now? As for the fossil record, I'll have a ponder on the moon's prehistory and get back to ye
 
Gentleman’s Astronautics said:
As for the fossil record, I'll have a ponder on the moon's prehistory and get back to ye
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Don't worry, getting back to me on any fictional lunar fossil record should be the very least of your priorities - I have neither the background nor the interest in speculating on clearly counterfactual stuff like that.
 
martinbayer said:
Don't worry, getting back to me on any fictional lunar fossil record should be the very least of your priorities - I have neither the background nor the interest in speculating on clearly counterfactual stuff like that.
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fair enough, while I ponder this next to a well-lit fireplace with some brandy, what should I get back to you on?
 
Future fully reusable space launch and exploration systems based on TRL6+ maturity, but I'm afraid that clashes with your postulated timeline.
 
martinbayer said:
Sure, if you have one, it's a good start.
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Project Megaroc seems a reasonable place to start, so lets begin:

October 1945: Operation Backfire's reports on the V2's components and capabilities are picked up by the British Interplanetary Society, who promptly question whether it would be possible to place a man in the Nose Cone of a V2 (TRL 1)

February, 1946: R.A Smith writes a letter, detailing the proposal to the Ministry Of Supply, requesting funding for the project, detailing how the research gathered could be applied to a wide-range of fields and help advance modern science, by testing radio communication through the ionosphere, human performance over a wide range of g-conditions, and observations could be made of the Earth and the Sun . Funding is approved later that month (TRL 2)

March 1946: Those within the British Interplanetary Society who helped tie the proposal are then shipped to the facilities at Cruxhaven in a Lancaster, which carries in the bomb bay a 20ft tall model of Megaroc, and in a smaller parcel all the necessary information on modifications to the pre-existing Cruxhaven site. (TRL 3)

April, 1946: Working fast to meet the ministry's deadline of December 1947, the Blueprints drawn up at Cruxhaven by the English and German engineers are relayed via the Ministry to various aircraft manufacturers, with contracts for the Booster being given to Avro, and the capsule contract being awarded to Bristol and Normalair as a joint venture. (TRL 3)

June, 1946: A mockup of the capsule is delivered to the Cruxhaven site by Bristol and Normalair, for crew training and evaluation. It is suspended via cable, so that the astronaut may be trained in control of orientation and spin. (TRL 4)

August, 1946: Avro delivers the first of 3 boosters, and 3 spare engines that can be used to verify the A-4s ability to withstand a longer duration burn. The boosters and engines are tested at a new firing site. (TRL 5)

November, 1946: An unmanned booster and capsule is readied for launch, on the night of the 15th. It is used as a demonstrator that the booster can withstand the longer duration burn, and if the capsule can withstand space and recovery. The missile is radio-telecontrolled from the Cruxhaven blockhouse, and the capsule makes a landing in a nearby field, while the booster splashes down off the coast, and is recovered. (TRL 6)

December 1946: The test is repeated in front of an audience of top brass (including Attlee), scientists, and representatives of the Ministry of Aviation and Ministry of Supply. Once more the test is a resounding success, and Megaroc and its booster are deemed safe for manned usage. (TRL 7)

January - November, 1947: The Megaroc Men (picked the previous June), continue their training for another six months, each making slightly higher manned flights until the 8th November 1947, when the first Man entered space, at an altitude of 1 million feet. (TRL 8)

does this suffice?
 
A comet could impact near caves, water pours in and the caves collapse.

Mooncalf based on armored tardigrades.

Here, you might have evolution construct hardshell spacesuits with more adventurous tardigrades digging to caves with lower and lower atmospheric pressure---slow adaptation--more pressure loss.

Then perhaps right out onto the surface.

Some are like ant-lions in the bottom of craters--sarlacc like.

Here, tardigrade calves are fed to be used as airlocks, with aft appendages to water in caves.

I could see tiny fish-eggs blown from Earth impactors landing on the Moon with caves also collapsing after them to form seals.

I want some to be like electric eels.

I read in phys.org that the fields caused by real eels can change DNA of other fish--so here is a Frankenstein connection as well.

You'll need that extra juice for evolution seeing as there is less to work with here.
 
publiusr said:
A comet could impact near caves, water pours in and the caves collapse.

Mooncalf based on armored tardigrades.

Here, you might have evolution construct hardshell spacesuits with more adventurous tardigrades digging to caves with lower and lower atmospheric pressure---slow adaptation--more pressure loss.

Then perhaps right out onto the surface.

Some are like ant-lions in the bottom of craters--sarlacc like.

Here, tardigrade calves are fed to be used as airlocks, with aft appendages to water in caves.

I could see tiny fish-eggs blown from Earth impactors landing on the Moon with caves also collapsing after them to form seals.

I want some to be like electric eels.

I read in phys.org that the fields caused by real eels can change DNA of other fish--so here is a Frankenstein connection as well.

You'll need that extra juice for evolution seeing as there is less to work with here.
Click to expand...
I love it, except how might a natural spacesuit evolve? I'm confused
also, what exactly do you mean that water pours in when the caves collapse?
 
Gentleman’s Astronautics said:
Project Megaroc seems a reasonable place to start, so lets begin:

October 1945: Operation Backfire's reports on the V2's components and capabilities are picked up by the British Interplanetary Society, who promptly question whether it would be possible to place a man in the Nose Cone of a V2 (TRL 1)

February, 1946: R.A Smith writes a letter, detailing the proposal to the Ministry Of Supply, requesting funding for the project, detailing how the research gathered could be applied to a wide-range of fields and help advance modern science, by testing radio communication through the ionosphere, human performance over a wide range of g-conditions, and observations could be made of the Earth and the Sun . Funding is approved later that month (TRL 2)

March 1946: Those within the British Interplanetary Society who helped tie the proposal are then shipped to the facilities at Cruxhaven in a Lancaster, which carries in the bomb bay a 20ft tall model of Megaroc, and in a smaller parcel all the necessary information on modifications to the pre-existing Cruxhaven site. (TRL 3)

April, 1946: Working fast to meet the ministry's deadline of December 1947, the Blueprints drawn up at Cruxhaven by the English and German engineers are relayed via the Ministry to various aircraft manufacturers, with contracts for the Booster being given to Avro, and the capsule contract being awarded to Bristol and Normalair as a joint venture. (TRL 3)

June, 1946: A mockup of the capsule is delivered to the Cruxhaven site by Bristol and Normalair, for crew training and evaluation. It is suspended via cable, so that the astronaut may be trained in control of orientation and spin. (TRL 4)

August, 1946: Avro delivers the first of 3 boosters, and 3 spare engines that can be used to verify the A-4s ability to withstand a longer duration burn. The boosters and engines are tested at a new firing site. (TRL 5)

November, 1946: An unmanned booster and capsule is readied for launch, on the night of the 15th. It is used as a demonstrator that the booster can withstand the longer duration burn, and if the capsule can withstand space and recovery. The missile is radio-telecontrolled from the Cruxhaven blockhouse, and the capsule makes a landing in a nearby field, while the booster splashes down off the coast, and is recovered. (TRL 6)

December 1946: The test is repeated in front of an audience of top brass (including Attlee), scientists, and representatives of the Ministry of Aviation and Ministry of Supply. Once more the test is a resounding success, and Megaroc and its booster are deemed safe for manned usage. (TRL 7)

January - November, 1947: The Megaroc Men (picked the previous June), continue their training for another six months, each making slightly higher manned flights until the 8th November 1947, when the first Man entered space, at an altitude of 1 million feet. (TRL 8)

does this suffice?
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The following saying by Wernher Von Braun comes to mind: “Crash programs fail because they are based on the theory that, with nine women pregnant, you can get a baby a month.” The timeline of a little more than two years for a crewed suborbital flight, even with theoretically unlimited spending (which in the austere British postwar economic environment appears highly improbable) seems extremely optimistic and not to contain any contingency reserves. But it's your story, man :)!
 

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