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British manned program in 60s?

carmelo

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Well,i know that this is not an forum of alternate history,but the my question is:
premise the political will, an UK-Canada-Australia (not Commonwealth) manned program in 60s,with first suborbital flight in 1961 and successive goals like orbital flights in early 60s and a two men capsule and small research-surveillance space station in LEO in mid - late 60s
was in any manner possible?
UK-Canada-Australia together would have a sufficent budget for an manned program
(Something like the actual Chinese manned program,but in 60s)?
And considered that the launch site for the British space program was in Woomera,would be possible built the launchers in Australia?
 

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Michel Van

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you never try the forum search engine ?

here some real projects for British manned program

Blue Streak based satellite transport system
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5063.0.html
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2906.0.html
and more Blue Streak based rockets
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.0.html
Waverider concept
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2946.0.html
British manned spacecraft proposal
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4131.0.html
Proposal for manned Luna landing
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6954.0.html
on British spacestation
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6923.0.html

so its possible for a British Manned Space program
there are four dimensions in British aerospace : span, length, height and politics.
they got the first three right. but with politics it wend terribly wrong...

P.s.
Can some one move this topic in Alternate History section in this forum ?
THX in advance
 

OM

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Michel Van said:
you never try the forum search engine ?
...Most forum search engines don't work worth a frack, which is why most people, regardless of experience, use them. As for this guy's "What If?", I suggest he locate a copy of Warren Ellis' Ministry of Space, which goes over some of what he asks. Note that I do not recommend *buying* a copy, as Warren Ellis behaved like a totally inexcusable jerk towards a lot of sci.space.history regulars when they inquired about why there was a 3+ year delay between issues #2 & #3. See if the local library has the TPB, or download a copy from the torrents.
 

XP67_Moonbat

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"Minstry of Space", huh? I just Googled it and I really want to get that now. Like a British "Right Stuff".

Giuseppe, where is that capsule from? Now you got me intrigued.

Moonbat
 

carmelo

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Michel Van said:
you never try the forum search engine ?

here some real projects for British manned program

Blue Streak based satellite transport system
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5063.0.html
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2906.0.html
and more Blue Streak based rockets
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.0.html
Waverider concept
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2946.0.html
British manned spacecraft proposal
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4131.0.html
Proposal for manned Luna landing
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6954.0.html
on British spacestation
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6923.0.html

so its possible for a British Manned Space program
there are four dimensions in British aerospace : span, length, height and politics.
they got the first three right. but with politics it wend terribly wrong...

P.s.
Can some one move this topic in Alternate History section in this forum ?
THX in advance
Excuse me for the wrong room. :-\
Well, the real projects are very interestings,but maybe a bit too much ambitious.
I dont'speak about a British moon landing or an UK Spaceplane,but a "simple" manned capsule like Mercury,Vostok or Gemini, in a program comparable at the actual Chinese program .
We said an suborbital flight in 1961,three or four orbital between 1962-1965,a two men block-II in 1966-68,EVA experiment in the same period,an little station like Salyut-1 (or more small) in 1970.
Was possible technically for UK Industries realize this goals,and a joint effort UK/Canada/Australia could reach necessary budget?
And again for reduce costs,the launchers could be built in Australia?
archipeppe said:
Carmelo, that capsule looks familiar........ ;)
Well,Peppe,for my exemple i needed something with a "simple,fast,sooner" look... ;)
And the suit have the right Royal Air Force touch,i think.
Thanks,my friend. :)
 

Michel Van

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carmelo said:
Well, the real projects are very interestings,but maybe a bit too much ambitious.
I dont'speak about a British moon landing or an UK Spaceplane,but a "simple" manned capsule like Mercury,Vostok or Gemini, in a program comparable at the actual Chinese program .
We said an suborbital flight in 1961,three or four orbital between 1962-1965,a two men block-II in 1966-68,EVA experiment in the same period,an little station like Salyut-1 (or more small) in 1970.
Was possible technically for UK Industries realize this goals,and a joint effort UK/Canada/Australia could reach necessary budget?
And again for reduce costs,the launchers could be built in Australia?
Launcher build in Australia cheaper, No
The de Havilland Division of Hawker Siddeley Aviation
has to move the production site and the workers to Australia.
that cost far more money as simple transport of a Blue Streak to Woomera or Kenya

the Manned Lunar landing proposal by P. A. E. Stewart
Blue Streak , second stage HTP/Rp-1 with 4x stenton engine
and Mercury type capsule for manned flights.

this Mercury becomes later a Mercury Mark II aka Gemini space craft on
Blue Streak , second stage LOX/Lh2 with 4x RZ20 engine.

info on RZ20 engine
http://www.spaceuk.org/hydrogen/rr.htm
http://www.spaceuk.org/index.htm
 

alertken

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UK's Thor/Atlas-derived Blue Streak was abandoned 13/4/60 as an IRBM, but was thrown as 1st.stage into a political scheme, ELDO, seen in UK as entry ticket to the EEC. The Launch Vehicle, Europa, was to put up satellites: if any notion of a manned venture had ever interested UK politicians it would have been in the context of ELDO, to share the grotesque expense. On 23/4/68 UK stated its share of funding would cease by ’71 for “futile” Space - no payoff. UK stayed in payload “buses”; Europa never placed a payload in orbit; France invented Ariane, FRG took part of UK’s share. US would never have funded Mercury/Apollo if Sputnik had been second into orbit. Manned space is an unjustifiable squander of resources: scientifically it burdens, not enhances what sensors can do.
 

Michel Van

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UK's Thor/Atlas-derived Blue Streak was abandoned 13/4/60 as an IRBM, but was thrown as 1st.stage into a political scheme, ELDO...
we had in deep discussion and analyse here
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5063.0.html
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.0.html

here again this time in short form
after the death of Blue Streak IRBM program
Primeminister Macmillan (Tory Party) try to save the Program as Satellite launcher
first as Commonwealth project, but no intrest by its members
but France Wat to cooperate. 1961 Germany join in, ELDO is born and Blue Streak is save ... for the moment

again politic strike back, it take 3 year to form ELDO until 1964 they can make first launch !
with plan to launch a Satellite in 1966, technical problem strike the program
1966 again politic strike back,
France wanted Cryogenic upperstage and UK (under labour party ) want to quit.
with 6 years delay on program they launch a polar Satellite in 1969.
Europa 1 worked quite good, only to fail because a loose electrical plug !
the Payload shroud dint open, so Third stage and pact-in sat falls in Atlantic
again politic strike back minister Wedgwood Benn (labour party) try to Kill Blue Streak and ELDO
in his point of view: UK don't need a Space Program !
later as Tory Party take over UK government the new Minister of Transport takes over (i forgot his name)
yes the Blue Streak administration had be push in to Ministry of Transport under department shipping !
the guy was bad informed on programs and consider them as total failure and chancels the UK rocket Programs
from here Hawker Siddeley Aviation had build Blue Streak on Order of ELDO for EUROPA-2
until the EUROPA-2 was chancels because of his technical problem in 1973
 

Spark

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Michel Van said:
carmelo said:
Well, the real projects are very interestings,but maybe a bit too much ambitious.
I dont'speak about a British moon landing or an UK Spaceplane,but a "simple" manned capsule like Mercury,Vostok or Gemini, in a program comparable at the actual Chinese program .
We said an suborbital flight in 1961,three or four orbital between 1962-1965,a two men block-II in 1966-68,EVA experiment in the same period,an little station like Salyut-1 (or more small) in 1970.
Was possible technically for UK Industries realize this goals,and a joint effort UK/Canada/Australia could reach necessary budget?
And again for reduce costs,the launchers could be built in Australia?
Launcher build in Australia cheaper, No
The de Havilland Division of Hawker Siddeley Aviation
has to move the production site and the workers to Australia.
that cost far more money as simple transport of a Blue Streak to Woomera or Kenya

the Manned Lunar landing proposal by P. A. E. Stewart
Blue Streak , second stage HTP/Rp-1 with 4x stenton engine
and Mercury type capsule for manned flights.

this Mercury becomes later a Mercury Mark II aka Gemini space craft on
Blue Streak , second stage LOX/Lh2 with 4x RZ20 engine.

info on RZ20 engine
http://www.spaceuk.org/hydrogen/rr.htm
http://www.spaceuk.org/index.htm
Hi
Facts, not speculation or fiction, the UK British Empire, Commonwealth of Nations had a formal Military Manned Space Programme up until June/July 1960 when it was cancelled.
In many areas it was already the leading contender despite the Politics.
The first phase infrastructure for a sustained programme was already for the most part complete paid for and in place.

The Joint Special Project covered this phase.

For example the Spadeadam and Woomera Air Liquefaction Plants were both each designed and constructed to produce at full capacity 33,000 tons of LOX annually. A total of 66,000 ton capacity of LOX each year from those two plants alone.

Note the Blue Streak missile round used about 64 ton of LOX. per flight. Initially based on American experience 300 ton was allowed for each flight to meet the worst case scenario, but a lot less needed with experience.

Stevenage assembly line one already in production was to meet an original MoS requirement. for fifty unit capacity per year of the RZ12/ RZ14 powered Military SLV or RZ13 Missile variant.

The Spadeadam Captive Stands could take up to according to Val Cleaver 1,000,000 lbf thrust SLV and the Woomera ones at least that amount even when the engines were being gimballed upto about 7degrees?

The Dual purpose mobile towers, gantries could take the sixteen foot diameter SLV and could have platform stages added for extra height to cope with additional SLV upper stages.

Optimistically the Military Space plane was to be in service by 1965 and several UK companies had already but forward proposals for return craft..

The Spacestation was to have been of modular construction, largest component with a mass of about twenty Imperial tons.

Twenty-five, five crew ferry flights for each orbital station.

Normalair, Windak, Frankenstein, and Siebe Gorman had already produced space suits that at a latter date influenced the Design of the Apollo Moon Suit.

1959 RAE Farnborough temperature stabilisation inner suit, concept was used since both by the Americans and Russians. and maybe the Chinese?

G Pardoe stated that it would only take annually an additional sum equivalent to what UK children spent on November the Fifth fireworks for the UK Commonwealth to have a fully fledged ongoing Space programme.

Several UK companies were designing had designed satellites by the time of the summer 1960 cancellation including communication and reconnaissance satellites. According to British engineers who worked on Apollo the UK work was at least the equal of American work at the time.

The Australian taxpayers made a substantial contribution in addition to that of UK taxpayer for the programme. The annual cost for the UK Farming egg subsidy was more than 50% greater than the total spent on the programme for a similar time period.

If the then rate of UK spending had been increased to level of that spent on the farming egg subsidy for the next ten years the Americans could have been greeted by some one with an Australian or Kenyan accent when they eventually reached the Moon during the 1970’s.
 

zen

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Well I'm not sure the waverider capsule is going to be that problematic compared to the blunt body type, since I'm not sure any of them where really that 'reusable'.

Kenya seems an obvious site for launches.

I wonder if Aden is possible for an alternative?
 

Michel Van

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archipeppe said:
carmelo said:
Thanks,my friend. :)
You're welcome Carmelo!!! ;D
one moment, is that carmelo pugliatti from forumastronautico ?!
In caso affermativo, Benvenuti nel forum del progetto segreto ;D

zen said:
Well I'm not sure the waverider capsule is going to be that problematic compared to the blunt body type, since I'm not sure any of them where really that 'reusable'.

Kenya seems an obvious site for launches.

I wonder if Aden is possible for an alternative?
no, Kenya is Commonwealth member
and has Mount Kenya Ideal for High high altitude launch at equator
more about here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6923.msg59598.html#msg59598

Spark said:
The Joint Special Project covered this phase.

For example the Spadeadam and Woomera Air Liquefaction Plants were both each designed and constructed to produce at full capacity 33,000 tons of LOX annually. A total of 66,000 ton capacity of LOX each year from those two plants alone.

Note the Blue Streak missile round used about 64 ton of LOX. per flight. Initially based on American experience 300 ton was allowed for each flight to meet the worst case scenario, but a lot less needed with experience.

Stevenage assembly line one already in production was to meet an original MoS requirement. for fifty unit capacity per year of the RZ12/ RZ14 powered Military SLV or RZ13 Missile variant.

The Spadeadam Captive Stands could take up to according to Val Cleaver 1,000,000 lbf thrust SLV and the Woomera ones at least that amount even when the engines were being gimballed upto about 7degrees?

The Dual purpose mobile towers, gantries could take the sixteen foot diameter SLV and could have platform stages added for extra height to cope with additional SLV upper stages.

Optimistically the Military Space plane was to be in service by 1965 and several UK companies had already but forward proposals for return craft...
33000/64 tons = 515 Blue streak launch per year ! :eek:
or they build bigger rocket like this one...
 

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martinbayer

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Is it just me, or has the guy in the spacesuit a more than passing resemblance with Rowan Atkinson?

Martin
 

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carmelo

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archipeppe said:
Michel Van said:
one moment, is that carmelo pugliatti from forumastronautico ?!
I suppose yes, Michel.
Yes,i'm. ;) And one reason for my question about UK manned space program is that when i was a kid loved an British comic strips called "Jeff Hawke". :D

 

archipeppe

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carmelo said:
Yes,i'm. ;) And one reason for my question about UK manned space program is that when i was a kid loved an British comic strips called "Jeff Hawke". :D
Grande Carmelo!!! :D

Anche io sono un amante di Jeff Hawke e non solo visto che ho sempre adorato anche Dan Dare "il pilota del futuro".
Me too appreciated Jeff Hawke and I've also always liked really Dan Dare "the pilot of the future".
 

zen

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Kenya is indeed a Commonwealth member, but then it was given its independance and produces all sorts of knock on effects if we then return, even in a more equal partnership with them.

Aden however wanted to remain British, not to be lumped together with southern yemen.

thinking on that, either option is opening a can of worms since one has to change history in major way for both.
Either Aden is kept a British Arab Gibralta type mini-statelet.
Or we involve ourselves in Kenya and end up having to deal with neighbouring Uganda (Idi Amin).

On that sense it would be easier to hold onto Zanizbar and that only changes history in a minor way.

Certainly not ideal trying to build a launch platform on Mount Kenya, name me the country that has its rocket launch platforms on an active volcano?
 

Lauge

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martinbayer said:
Is it just me, or has the guy in the spacesuit a more than passing resemblance with Rowan Atkinson?

Martin
I smell a new installment of "Blackadder" coming up (Edmund Blackadder A.D. 1960 trying to wrangle his way out of becoming the first man in space, ably - or not - assisted by Capsule Cleaning Technician 1. Grade Baldrick) ;D

Ahem....back to the topic at hand.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark (presently Luxembourg)
 

Michel Van

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zen said:
Certainly not ideal trying to build a launch platform on Mount Kenya, name me the country that has its rocket launch platforms on an active volcano?
so far i know was last eruption of Mount Kenya 3 million years ago (source Wiki)

but there another alternative for near equator launch site under British controll

Darwin, Australia
it was under ELDO a short time proposal to build there a ELDO Space Center
but France had already had build it Guiana Space Centre in French Guiana
and so Australia quits ELDO

picture one show Darwin and Launch trajectories
Picture two show Woomera and its Launch trajectories
source
http://www.spaceuk.org
Capcomespace


and there also this 1961 proposed UK launch site!
Spadeadam in the NorthWest of England, close to the Scottish border
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/cumbria.htm
 

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archipeppe

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Michel Van said:
and there also this 1961 proposed UK launch site!
Spadeadam in the NorthWest of England, close to the Scottish border
Huh....a "British Plesetsk" anyway....
 

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zen said:
Aden however wanted to remain British, not to be lumped together with southern yemen.
I think the instability in that part of the world would nix any suggestion of a launch site in Aden - besides, would Aden Colony be big enough to accommodate a launch site without causing disruption to the daily life of the residents?
 

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starviking said:
zen said:
Aden however wanted to remain British, not to be lumped together with southern Yemen.
I think the instability in that part of the world would nix any suggestion of a launch site in Aden - besides, would Aden Colony be big enough to accommodate a launch site without causing disruption to the daily life of the residents?
i checked wiki
an Wat i found is: Aden city is build into the crater of an extinct volcano :D
however a less "political Vulcan" as at Mount Kenya ::)
nautical map of Aden
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/aden_nautical90.jpg
RAF KHORMAKSAR AIR BASE ADEN
http://rafinegyptandaden1950sduddings.co.uk/Khormaksar.aspx

after the maps the Best site is Ra's Taih near Bandar Daras bay
the Hill shields the City of Aden against the Launch extreme noise
but the site is only for launch in to equator orbits, Launch to north for Polar Orbit is impossible

but why make so much trouble in Political Wat If
why not use a Ship to launch the Rockets ?
like Sealaunch, no more problem with locals ;D
just modified a old UK Aircraftcarrier in to Launch platform...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3534.0.html
 

zen

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Fascenating!

Certainly a seabased platorm based of oil rig technology would solve all this.

But then if we're going to build on volcanos why not the Caribean?

The question I keep comming back to however is "how does the UK decide to do such an expensive effort". Because context determines the sort of decisions taken.
 

starviking

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zen said:
Fascenating!

Certainly a seabased platorm based of oil rig technology would solve all this.

But then if we're going to build on volcanos why not the Caribean?

The question I keep comming back to however is "how does the UK decide to do such an expensive effort". Because context determines the sort of decisions taken.
Well, in the late 60's Labour decided that a New Britain would be forged in the 'red-hot heat of technology', to paraphrase Tony Benn - you just have to push it back a bit into the time when Commonwealth technical collaborations were seen as the way forward.
 

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zen said:
Certainly a seabased platorm based of oil rig technology would solve all this.
In 'Rebuilding the Royal Navy', by D K Brown and George Moore, Brown mentions a fellow naval architect called Eric Tupper being part of a team that was developing a catamaran to launch space vehicles.

This appears to have been at the time the Type 82 destroyer was being designed so this makes it the 60’s.
 

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In Volume 59 Supplement 2, 2006 of BIS’s Space Chronicles – UK Spaceplanes, there is mention on Page 107 of a R. H Francis from Hawker Siddeley presenting a paper ‘believed to be in Virginia around the late 1960’s, where he showed a configuration identical to that of the US Space Shuttle, i.e., a winged, returnable Orbiter, two solid parachute recoverable SRBs and the expendable fuel tank.’

Didn't say anything about expected size, weights etc.
 

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PMN1 said:
In 'Rebuilding the Royal Navy', by D K Brown and George Moore, Brown mentions a fellow naval architect called Eric Tupper being part of a team that was developing a catamaran to launch space vehicles.

This appears to have been at the time the Type 82 destroyer was being designed so this makes it the 60’s.
WAT they planted that also ?! :eek:
how much of those UK secrets gonna pop up like this ?

so the Type 82 destroyer, Planned: 4 build only 1
6000t mass Length: 154.53 m (507 ft) Beam: 16.76 m (55 ft)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_82_destroyer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Bristol_(D23)

PMN1 said:
In Volume 59 Supplement 2, 2006 of BIS’s Space Chronicles – UK Spaceplanes, there is mention on Page 107 of a R. H Francis from Hawker Siddeley presenting a paper ‘believed to be in Virginia around the late 1960’s, where he showed a configuration identical to that of the US Space Shuttle, i.e., a winged, returnable Orbiter, two solid parachute recoverable SRBs and the expendable fuel tank.’

Didn't say anything about expected size, weights etc.
why tell a voice in my head, Moonraker ze movie ? ::)
 

Michel Van

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i look in Wikipedia and Found the perfect candidate for Blue Streak Sealaunch

HMS Leviathan , Aircraft carrier of Majestic Class.
she was never completed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Leviathan_(R97)
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/majestic_class.htm
http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/ships/LEVIATHAN.html

easy to modified for Rocket launch
and as option to search&recover the Manned/spysat capsule after splashdown

spysat ?
its perfect reason to go on with British Spaceprogram including a Manned one
 

Michel Van

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here in full glory HMS Leviathan with Blue Streak with Lox/lh2 stage (and french L-17 booster)
(in same scale)
instresting is that the Aircraftlift are 12 x 10 meter right size for the Upperstage
however the Blue Streak + booster has to stay on flight deck

but one problem is the service tower with high of 40 meter (the big rectangle right)
would it be better, if that one can lies down on flightdeck ?
 

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agricola64

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Michel Van said:
here in full glory HMS Leviathan with Blue Streak with Lox/lh2 stage (and french L-17 booster)
(in same scale)
instresting is that the Aircraftlift are 12 x 10 meter right size for the Upperstage
however the Blue Streak + booster has to stay on flight deck

but one problem is the service tower with high of 40 meter (the big rectangle right)
would it be better, if that one can lies down on flightdeck ?
are you planning to use the forward arircraft lift to redirect the exhaust gases .. ?

if so - to where? straight down through the entire ship? or sideways out to both sides of the ship?
 

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Michel Van said:
33000/64 tons = 515 Blue streak launch per year ! :eek:
or they build bigger rocket like this one...
What is that from? That looks like something from Gerry Anderson.
 

Michel Van

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The Artist said:
What is that from? That looks like something from Gerry Anderson.
that EUROSEC Rocket from Gerry Anderson Movie:
"Doppelgänger" aka "Journey To The Far Side Of The Sun"


agricola64 said:
Michel Van said:
here in full glory HMS Leviathan with Blue Streak with Lox/lh2 stage (and french L-17 booster)
(in same scale)
instresting is that the Aircraftlift are 12 x 10 meter right size for the Upperstage
however the Blue Streak + booster has to stay on flight deck

but one problem is the service tower with high of 40 meter (the big rectangle right)
would it be better, if that one can lies down on flightdeck ?
are you planning to use the forward arircraft lift to redirect the exhaust gases .. ?

if so - to where? straight down through the entire ship? or sideways out to both sides of the ship?
side ways, would look like this
 

Michel Van

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THX for Article, Barrington Bond
it sad this never became reality
 

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America tried sea launching Jupiter missiles. Not a great success.

Several snags.

How do you assemble the vehicle?
Vessel pitching and rolling too much;
Where does rocket exhaust go?
What would happen with a pad explosion?
 

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As a member of the Jeff Hawke Club I can commend this long running 50s to 70s comic strip to whatiffers as the stories show all sorts of great kit. It also shows a major element of manned spaceflight which did not exist until the 70s. Space stations! Without one of these there was little reason for Britain to build its own Mercury or Gemini.
 

archipeppe

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uk 75 said:
As a member of the Jeff Hawke Club I can commend this long running 50s to 70s comic strip to whatiffers as the stories show all sorts of great kit. It also shows a major element of manned spaceflight which did not exist until the 70s. Space stations! Without one of these there was little reason for Britain to build its own Mercury or Gemini.
I found out another Jaff Hawke fan here.... ;D

I've always loved the strip for its cleverness and sense of humor, indeed the spacecrafts depicted was a huge catalog of almost anything produced during '50s and '60s, ranging from von Braun projects to 2001 Space Odissey.
 
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