Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes

hesham said:
From TU 170,

here is a helicopter,designed by Mr. Henry Bergier in 1937.
Click to expand...

Bergier Annular lift-generating device 1930,

in 1930 Henri-Eugène-Philippe Bergier patented this machine announced as « self-lifting ». It was based on the « principle of the kite » where the kite cellulas, reduced to aircraft wings (A) were lifted by the air stream generated by contra-rotating turbines (E-F).

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richard B said:
hesham said:
OK my dear Richard,but certainly it was two Huttmann ?.
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Yes , the French Huttmann and the German Hüttmann
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Okay, I'm confused.

In this thread (on 27 April 2020), hesham clipped TU 236, which stated that in "1927, a certain Huttmann proposed a helicopter with tandem rotors ...".
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ects-and-prototypes.15821/page-12#post-389744

An assumption was made that, since this project was described in Trait d'Union is must be a French project. That assumpton was reasserted in reply #597.

But, in 1927, Flugsport described that exact same project as the Hüttmann-Drehflügel Modell. So, it seems that this - and Hüttmann's 1926 modell - were actually German projects.

Then we have "certainly it was two Huttmann". How so?

Although we have no first name, we do have a vague idea of what Herr Hüttmann was getting up to. But who was this Monsieur Huttmann? Do we have any actual record of this French Huttmann or his projects?

Barring fresh evidence,I would suggest that TU refers to a "Hélicoptère" in their index because its writers are French - not because Herr Hüttmann was French.
 
From Ailes 11 January 1940,

what was this ?.
 

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hesham said:
From Ailes 11 January 1940,

what was this ?.
Click to expand...

Judging the first part of that article, nothing from France.

"AFTER the giant seaplane with sixteen machine guns, the stratospheric rocket and the magnetic mine,
it is suggested that the Germans have another technical surprise in the form of a gliding bomb."

What comes then, seems to be the introduction of such weapons from other contries.

Of course, it would be interesting to know, which giant (German) seaplane/flying boat was meant at the very beginning
of the year 1940. Magnetic mines were well known then, but the (German) stratospheric rocket ? The A5 ("Aggregat 5"),
tested from 1938 onwards ?
 
Jemiba said:
hesham said:
From Ailes 11 January 1940,

what was this ?.
Click to expand...

Judging the first part of that article, nothing from France.

"AFTER the giant seaplane with sixteen machine guns, the stratospheric rocket and the magnetic mine,
it is suggested that the Germans have another technical surprise in the form of a gliding bomb."

What comes then, seems to be the introduction of such weapons from other contries.

Of course, it would be interesting to know, which giant (German) seaplane/flying boat was meant at the very beginning
of the year 1940. Magnetic mines were well known then, but the (German) stratospheric rocket ? The A5 ("Aggregat 5"),
tested from 1938 onwards ?
Click to expand...
Many thanks my dear Jemiba,

and please we can transfer it to anther topic,and thanks.
 
hesham said:
From TU 207,

Mr. Leon Gateu designed a tourist Biplane in 1924,powered by one 25 hp Salmson engine,and also
created a two-seat Monoplane in 1930,powered by one 45 hp engine,the later maybe remained a
Project only ?.
Click to expand...
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k9607206m/f1.image.r=Gateu?rk=85837;2

http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Histoire/Vauville-1925/Vauville-1925.htm

http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Histoire/Vauville-1925/Vauville-1925_machines.htm

and from "Taschenbuch der Luftflotten 1927 " , with the number 23 at Vauville :

Num-riser-1.jpg
 
hesham said:
hesham said:
Pineau-Phalempin Ultra & Trimotor were a ultra-light and three engined Projects of 1923
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Here is anther airplane for them powered by 300 hp engine,was it a Fighter or military aircraft ?.

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Good question. The text doesn't seem to specify a role (being grouped under the title 'Avions de chasse, de combat et de reconnaissance Avions de vitesse')

A rough translation: "We will also cite the Phalempin-Pineau aircraft, a low-wing monoplane with paired bracing wires. Of entirely wooden construction, the fuselage is a semi-monocoque structure. The wing - like a Nieuport monocoque's - is formed by stringers skinned with winding laminations of tulipwood veneers."

I note that your earlier ONERA reference from the same year lists Pineau-Phalempin while, here, Phalempin-Pineau is used.

I'm also curious as to where you got the '300 hp' info from. The L'Aérophile article lists this airframe together with a range of 450 hp Lorraine-powered aircraft. Is there other information to the contrary?
 
Many thanks dear Apophenia,

but maybe I am wrong with 300 hp,it was 450 hp,and of course it was
not ultra light aircraft,so I think it definitely a military aircraft,right ?.

From TU magazine !?
 

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Hello.
I own a photo with a French aircraft that I'm unable to identify.
According to another forum the picture was taken probably in Saint-Nazaire Escoublac after the German occupation. I assume that the engine is a Salmson.
img735a 1700px.jpg
The registration F-AROR was given to a Morane-Saulnier MS.138 but that type can be excluded.
In another forum there are some different pictures of that aircraft, one shows the tail with what may be the type designation:

SCA type CAPRN 10 N.01

3677_Capture 2020-07-02 à 16.37.12.jpg

Forum Le Monde en Guerre - trouvailles sur les sites de vente

Le Forum de référence sur la Seconde Guerre Mondiale 1939 1945. - trouvailles sur les sites de vente.
www.39-45.org www.39-45.org

SCA could be the Societe Commerciale Aeronautique, but what is CAPRN?

In the link from above it is suggested that the unknown plane is the SCA SFR-10, however, according to this thread here at secretprojects this can probably excluded as well.

Is there anything more about this little plane which could help to identify it?
 
Fabulousfour, I think that your mystery aeroplane is the C.A.P.R.N. type 10. It was wind tested in 1937 (see https://www.servicehistorique.sga.d...s/2019-12/SHDAA_REP_5F9_NO_1054_1923_1978.pdf, p.51) and the resulting report is 336/E. There is a sketch and a three view drawing of it in the February 1938 issue of L'Aérophile (see https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6555153t/f19.item, p.31) but I've failed to find any mention of it in the other French aeronautical journals around this time. It was a two seater powered by a 60hp Salmson 9 ADR, designed to be used in the state flying training programme (Aviation Populaire). I suspect that it was one of the very many French light aeroplanes which failed to make the grade at this time and simply disappeared off the radar during the subsequent German Occupation of France. I've failed to ascertain for what the initials C.A.P.R.N. stood. As for S.C.A., I think that we've discussed this elsewhere before and, whilst I can't presently find that discussion, my memory tells me that the company built aeroplanes for third parties. So I suspect that C.A.P.R.N. designed and S.C.A. built the aeroplane in your photograph.
 
Hi, Mike ;)
Many, many thanks for your research, I think that doesn't leave any question open.
According to the post at 12oclockhigh CAPRN means "Centre d'Aviation Populaire de la Région Nazairienne" so that would match with the assumption that the photo was taken in Saint Nazaire.
 
'Twas a pleasure, Robert, but it still leaves one mystery, namely why the registration mark F-AROR had been applied to it, when it was photographed, when the records indicate that such was or should have been carried by a M.S.138.
 
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avion ancien said:
As for S.C.A., I think that we've discussed this elsewhere before and, whilst I can't presently find that discussion, my memory tells me that the company built aeroplanes for third parties.
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I think that I was slightly mistaken when I posted the above information. I think that what we'd discussed elsewhere was the S.C.A.M. rather than the S.C.A.. The former was the Société des Constructions Aéronautiques du Maine, based at Pont-de-Braye in the Sarthe Département (although one might have expected it to be based in Maine-et-Loire). Has it been established whether the latter was the Société Commerciale Aeronautique? Judging by the little information that I've found online, the Société Commerciale Aeronautique (including those companies that use this name with a geographical suffix) seems to be far more recently established rather than dating back to the 1930s. Thus I wonder whether the S.C.A. and the S.C.A.M. might have been one and the same enterprise? Unfortunately none of my books contain reference to either and the online references are few and scant in content. Can anyone else shed light on this?
 
Moderators, I wonder whether it might be more appropriate to pare off the C.A.P.R.N./S.C.A./S.C.A.M. Type 10 posts into a discrete topic, rather than leaving them floundering in the generic Little Known French Projects & Prototypes topic?
 
Yes, that's exactly what I said in my prepenultimate post. If you know any more than that, about this specific entreprise, I shall be grateful if you'll provide details.
 
avion ancien said:
Yes, that's exactly what I said in my prepenultimate post. If you know any more than that, about this specific entreprise, I shall be grateful if you'll provide details.
Click to expand...

In the topic,which I shared its link all you want.
 
May be, someone just posted it.

In Les Ailes # 659 1934 p. 5 there was an article "Les resultats des concours d'avions et de moteurs" and three interesting projects-winners were described
 

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burunduk said:
May be, someone just posted it.

In Les Ailes # 659 1934 p. 5 there was an article "Les resultats des concours d'avions et de moteurs" and three interest projects-winners were described
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My dear Burunduk, I post them in reply # 91.
 
From Pegase 2007,

what was this ?.
 

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Is anything known about the second, low wing S.M.A.L. monoplane (mentioned in the 1946 advertisement), beyond it being a single seater and powered by a 35hp motor?

It would not surprise me if Mr Sablé failed to find buyers for his two monoplanes post-war. The photographs of the high wing monoplane suggest that the design was antiquated even in 1938. And with Piper Cubs, left behind by the Americans, being widely and inexpensively available in 1946, I rather doubt that there would have been much of a market for the two small, low powered, single seat S.M.A.L. monoplanes.
 
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avion ancien said:
Is anything known about the second, low wing S.M.A.L. monoplane (mentioned in the 1946 advertisement), beyond it being a single seater and powered by a 35hp motor?
Click to expand...

From TU 288,

need translate.
 

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hesham said:

From TU 288,

need translate.
Click to expand...

I've re-arranged some of the run-on sentences ... but something like this:

"Sablé

In 1935, in collaboration with another amateur who then chaired the Aéro-Club de la Mayenne, Louis Sablé built an HM-8 which carried out its tests satisfactorily. However, a disagreement arose between the two associates who then divided the aircraft. Louis Sablé then built a two-seater Pou du Ciel. This aircraft flew 200 metres from the airfield at Montsurs but was demolished on landing due to its weak engine. Finally, our manufacturer produced a third airplane - a single-seat sedan with a 25 cv Poinsard engine - which re-used the wings from the HM-8. This third airplane was completed at the end of 1937 and made its first flight at the beginning of the following year.

In the meantime, Louis Sablé set up a limited partnership with some friends who were supporters of the Petite Aviation. Established with the aim of building low-powered aircraft, the Société Mayennaise d'Aviation Légère had capital of 42,500 francs and was based at Mayenne. Initially, a low, braced-wing monoplane was studied. This design had wings with a 8.60 m span and 11 m2 area. Equipped with a 27 or 35 cv engine, the aircraft had a total weight of 300 kg maximum with 30 liters of gasoline. The objective was to sell it, in small series."

The snippet reads: "...between 20 and 25,000 francs. It seems that this machine was built, but the war prevented its testing."
 
hey community, a little trouvaille from 1923, name : M. CH . HALLEY
 

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hesham said:
hesham said:
From TU 170,

here is a helicopter,designed by Mr. Henry Bergier in 1937.
Click to expand...

Bergier Annular lift-generating device 1930,

in 1930 Henri-Eugène-Philippe Bergier patented this machine announced as « self-lifting ». It was based on the « principle of the kite » where the kite cellulas, reduced to aircraft wings (A) were lifted by the air stream generated by contra-rotating turbines (E-F).

Modelstories: analyses de maquettes d'avions.

Modelstories, avions & maquettes. Modelstories, kits & planes
modelarchives.free.fr
Click to expand...
This concept make smore sense than the next dozen flying saucer proposals. Just use centrifugal compressor(s) to blow air outwards across (chord-wise) an air-foil shaped ring.
 
richard B said:
The Gaston Sablé / Société Mayennaise d'Aviation Légère/S.M.A.L 1937 :

View attachment 674980

View attachment 674981


The S.M.A.L built 2 planes :


They both get through WW II , and monsieur Sablé tried to sell them after the war :

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That diamond-shaped fuselage reminds us of Lobet Ganagobie. Ganagobie went through several iterations - mostly to accommodate heavier engines. Chris Falconar even sold Ganagobie plans.
 
MOTOP 1996 . Russian . (Flapping wing ). at the right place of the site ?
 

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Avimimus said:
hesham said:
Hi,


from Les Ailes journal,the designer Pierre Bazoin created two aircraft projects,the
first was tourist aircraft with inverse "M" shape,and the second was a six-engined
huge transatlantic flying boat in a weird configuration.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6560495x/f7.image
Click to expand...

Some details: 110 tons, 80 m wingspan, total power 15600 CV

So that is something like 2560 hp per prop! So probably three engines each?
Click to expand...
This Onera report shows another Bazoin design of 1937 called W

 

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