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Kamov projects

yasotay

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So I have noted a number of articles this last week on new Russian efforts toward high speed rotorcraft. In one they mention the high speed Mi-24(?) test bed as the basis for one effort and in another article they mention Kamov, with a picture of the Ka-92. So it appears that both design groups are actively working on high speed rotorcraft. Is this correct, likely, probable?
 

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flateric

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Advanced High-Speed Helicopter (PSV) program for civil use is dead awhile, having an offspring in form of PSKV (Advanced Mid-sized Commercial Helicopter) known as RACHEL (aka V-37/Mi-37) that is pretty dead now as well. Civil customers just don't want to pay money Russian Helicopters want for average speed increase compared to models currently on the market.
dual use PSV testbed based on Mi-24 was built to test new MRBs. results now will be implemented into Mil's winning 400+ km/h entry for Advanced Combat Helicopter program (PBV aka SBV - High-Speed Combat Helicopter)
Kamov lost the competition, was offering a radical 700 km/h coaxial concept, leaving 'less' advanced 500 km/h off the contest (was not smart IMO).
very soon Kamov DB will be assilmilated by Mil' DB just like MDC was 'merged' with Boeing. Kamov still have Minoga in the works, and probably soon all new choppers will loose DB names - just like all these new SSJ-100, MS-21, VRT-300 and VRT-500

PSV program history itself may easily make a second volume of Stevenson's The $5 Billion Misunderstanding
 
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yasotay

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As usual, you have articulated in two paragraphs concisely what is going on. Thank you my friend for making clear the state of advanced rotorcraft in Russia. Seems everyone is in turmoil on how to proceed toward new projects.
 

LMFS

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Let us see, I hope there is more future for Kamov than simply being absorbed, despite the ongoing (and necessary) consolidation in the Russian aeronautical industry I would think the fact that different design bureaus remain reasonably separated and independent is important to ensure a healthy level of competition and is not especially expensive. Manufacturing and testing facilities and equipment should de shared no doubt, since that is where big investments go, but the different design schools and philosophies are a valuable asset IMHO.

Coaxial layout seems more promising for a substantial increase in the speed of a helicopter than Mil's conventional scheme, since it lacks the retreating blade problem and need of compensating main rotor's torque. There were statements about the development of a high-speed model based on the Ka-52. Minoga seems compatible with the pusher propeller layout, even when that would somehow contradict what we know, I would not find it unthinkable for Kamov to resist being retired from the high speed race and insist / make their design compatible with a potential retrofit of the propeller technology.

From what we read some time ago, it seemed as if the high speed technologies were going to be implemented progressively. So, PSV itself may have been a failure in terms of program management but I would not doubt some of its ideas being implemented on the long run. For instance, first step would be the retrofit of the new rotor blades to existing helicopters in a way that would meet the immediate demands of the military in a cheap and effective way ("low hanging fruit" as they say) and, besides that, allowing to improve the whole fleet and not only new helicopters. Afterwards development of the pusher propeller would be specially easy for Kamov despite the changes needed on the main rotor, pushing the max speed to ca. 500 km/h. And in the long term their jet-propelled design would be the one with the biggest potential of all to the point of overlapping with fixed wing designs to a extent in terms of capabilities.
 

yasotay

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If the Russian helicopter houses are combined, it does not necessarily mean that one or the other design philosophy will vanish. Boeing absorbed McD/D/Hughes (Mesa), but there was no attack helicopter expertise suddenly appearing in Philadelphia. They may be part of the same company, but their design philosophies are still very different. I realize that Russia may have different practices, but I cannot see the pragmatism of having two design houses with differing expertise being kept on task.
 

LMFS

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If the Russian helicopter houses are combined, it does not necessarily mean that one or the other design philosophy will vanish. Boeing absorbed McD/D/Hughes (Mesa), but there was no attack helicopter expertise suddenly appearing in Philadelphia. They may be part of the same company, but their design philosophies are still very different. I realize that Russia may have different practices, but I cannot see the pragmatism of having two design houses with differing expertise being kept on task.
I think this is a bit more complex, due to the nature and organization of Russian industry. A design bureau in Russia to put it very briefly is essentially a team of designers. They will cooperate with VIAM / CIAM / TsAGI and all the relevant scientific institutions, suppliers and builders for their projects. So, with the ongoing consolidation one of the main topics is to ensure that the most investment-intensive resources (namely, those related with HW and testing, equipped with advanced instrumentation and tooling) will be fully loaded and not replicated at each designer and used now and then. And that makes full sense and is mandatory to ensure that the industry can work with the latest technology.

What Flateric was saying was that Kamov would be absorbed. Well, I am no insider so it may be true, but from the outside it would look more logical to me that both Mil and Kamov are kept as equally prominent design bureaus and share whatever resources Russian Helicopters deem necessary for design, testing etc. Kamov inside Mil would ultimately tend to be turned into nothing, no one wants internal competition.

As to the pragmatism of keeping two design houses on task I would say it ensures the customer (MoD) always receives the best technical solution possible and cannot be held hostage by any particular supplier. This is very relevant to keep healthy dynamics within the MIC.

Regarding my previous post about the Ka-52 and PSV in general being developed progressively, see below. This news is from 27th November 2018, when the announcement that Mil had won was on 19th November:

The Kamov design Bureau would create on the basis of Ka-52 flying laboratory on the project of high-speed helicopter

CEO of the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute Cyril Showered noted that work is scheduled to begin in the near future

MOSCOW, November 27. /TASS/. Flying laboratory of the advanced high-speed helicopter (PSV) project OKB Kamov the Ka-52 in the near future. TASS said General Director of Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute (TSAGI) n. a. Zhukovsky Cyril Showered.
https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/ka52.tass.ru/
"Sergey Mikheev (General designer of Kamov design Bureau - approx. TASS) soon plans to begin work on the creation of a flying laboratory PSV on the basis of helicopter Ka-52", - he said.
According to the Director of TSAGI, work on project PSV go in two directions. In the first area, specific developments, such as the new layout of the blades and rotors, will be introduced on existing cars of mark "Mi". The second direction is the development of the helicopter principle of the new scheme, a draft of which was presented the Kamov design Bureau.

 
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