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Kamov projects

yasotay

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So I have noted a number of articles this last week on new Russian efforts toward high speed rotorcraft. In one they mention the high speed Mi-24(?) test bed as the basis for one effort and in another article they mention Kamov, with a picture of the Ka-92. So it appears that both design groups are actively working on high speed rotorcraft. Is this correct, likely, probable?
 

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flateric

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Advanced High-Speed Helicopter (PSV) program for civil use is dead awhile, having an offspring in form of PSKV (Advanced Mid-sized Commercial Helicopter) known as RACHEL (aka V-37/Mi-37) that is pretty dead now as well. Civil customers just don't want to pay money Russian Helicopters want for average speed increase compared to models currently on the market.
dual use PSV testbed based on Mi-24 was built to test new MRBs. results now will be implemented into Mil's winning 400+ km/h entry for Advanced Combat Helicopter program (PBV aka SBV - High-Speed Combat Helicopter)
Kamov lost the competition, was offering a radical 700 km/h coaxial concept, leaving 'less' advanced 500 km/h off the contest (was not smart IMO).
very soon Kamov DB will be assilmilated by Mil' DB just like MDC was 'merged' with Boeing. Kamov still have Minoga in the works, and probably soon all new choppers will loose DB names - just like all these new SSJ-100, MS-21, VRT-300 and VRT-500

PSV program history itself may easily make a second volume of Stevenson's The $5 Billion Misunderstanding
 
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yasotay

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As usual, you have articulated in two paragraphs concisely what is going on. Thank you my friend for making clear the state of advanced rotorcraft in Russia. Seems everyone is in turmoil on how to proceed toward new projects.
 

LMFS

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Let us see, I hope there is more future for Kamov than simply being absorbed, despite the ongoing (and necessary) consolidation in the Russian aeronautical industry I would think the fact that different design bureaus remain reasonably separated and independent is important to ensure a healthy level of competition and is not especially expensive. Manufacturing and testing facilities and equipment should de shared no doubt, since that is where big investments go, but the different design schools and philosophies are a valuable asset IMHO.

Coaxial layout seems more promising for a substantial increase in the speed of a helicopter than Mil's conventional scheme, since it lacks the retreating blade problem and need of compensating main rotor's torque. There were statements about the development of a high-speed model based on the Ka-52. Minoga seems compatible with the pusher propeller layout, even when that would somehow contradict what we know, I would not find it unthinkable for Kamov to resist being retired from the high speed race and insist / make their design compatible with a potential retrofit of the propeller technology.

From what we read some time ago, it seemed as if the high speed technologies were going to be implemented progressively. So, PSV itself may have been a failure in terms of program management but I would not doubt some of its ideas being implemented on the long run. For instance, first step would be the retrofit of the new rotor blades to existing helicopters in a way that would meet the immediate demands of the military in a cheap and effective way ("low hanging fruit" as they say) and, besides that, allowing to improve the whole fleet and not only new helicopters. Afterwards development of the pusher propeller would be specially easy for Kamov despite the changes needed on the main rotor, pushing the max speed to ca. 500 km/h. And in the long term their jet-propelled design would be the one with the biggest potential of all to the point of overlapping with fixed wing designs to a extent in terms of capabilities.
 

yasotay

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If the Russian helicopter houses are combined, it does not necessarily mean that one or the other design philosophy will vanish. Boeing absorbed McD/D/Hughes (Mesa), but there was no attack helicopter expertise suddenly appearing in Philadelphia. They may be part of the same company, but their design philosophies are still very different. I realize that Russia may have different practices, but I cannot see the pragmatism of having two design houses with differing expertise being kept on task.
 

LMFS

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If the Russian helicopter houses are combined, it does not necessarily mean that one or the other design philosophy will vanish. Boeing absorbed McD/D/Hughes (Mesa), but there was no attack helicopter expertise suddenly appearing in Philadelphia. They may be part of the same company, but their design philosophies are still very different. I realize that Russia may have different practices, but I cannot see the pragmatism of having two design houses with differing expertise being kept on task.
I think this is a bit more complex, due to the nature and organization of Russian industry. A design bureau in Russia to put it very briefly is essentially a team of designers. They will cooperate with VIAM / CIAM / TsAGI and all the relevant scientific institutions, suppliers and builders for their projects. So, with the ongoing consolidation one of the main topics is to ensure that the most investment-intensive resources (namely, those related with HW and testing, equipped with advanced instrumentation and tooling) will be fully loaded and not replicated at each designer and used now and then. And that makes full sense and is mandatory to ensure that the industry can work with the latest technology.

What Flateric was saying was that Kamov would be absorbed. Well, I am no insider so it may be true, but from the outside it would look more logical to me that both Mil and Kamov are kept as equally prominent design bureaus and share whatever resources Russian Helicopters deem necessary for design, testing etc. Kamov inside Mil would ultimately tend to be turned into nothing, no one wants internal competition.

As to the pragmatism of keeping two design houses on task I would say it ensures the customer (MoD) always receives the best technical solution possible and cannot be held hostage by any particular supplier. This is very relevant to keep healthy dynamics within the MIC.

Regarding my previous post about the Ka-52 and PSV in general being developed progressively, see below. This news is from 27th November 2018, when the announcement that Mil had won was on 19th November:

The Kamov design Bureau would create on the basis of Ka-52 flying laboratory on the project of high-speed helicopter

CEO of the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute Cyril Showered noted that work is scheduled to begin in the near future

MOSCOW, November 27. /TASS/. Flying laboratory of the advanced high-speed helicopter (PSV) project OKB Kamov the Ka-52 in the near future. TASS said General Director of Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute (TSAGI) n. a. Zhukovsky Cyril Showered.
https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/ka52.tass.ru/
"Sergey Mikheev (General designer of Kamov design Bureau - approx. TASS) soon plans to begin work on the creation of a flying laboratory PSV on the basis of helicopter Ka-52", - he said.
According to the Director of TSAGI, work on project PSV go in two directions. In the first area, specific developments, such as the new layout of the blades and rotors, will be introduced on existing cars of mark "Mi". The second direction is the development of the helicopter principle of the new scheme, a draft of which was presented the Kamov design Bureau.

 

panzerfeist1

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Thing is - it's not 100km. Not even close.
"- The upgraded Ka-52M will be able to carry the latest product 305 cruise missiles. This helicopter helicopter can effectively hit any ground targets - including armored vehicles - at a distance of up to 100 km, a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS .

The interlocutor of the agency added that the modernized Alligator has an improved sighting and navigation system, the avionics of the cockpit and the screw group have been improved.

Earlier, another source in the defense industry told the agency that the “305 product” had passed combat tests in Syria. In time, they coincided with testing in conditions of real combat of the upgraded Mi-28NM Night Hunter attack helicopter.

Then , the first mention of the “305 product” appeared in the media . The flight range was modestly designated - "over 25 kilometers." The coordinates and target data are entered into the rocket before launch, the “product 305” overcomes most of the way under the control of an inertial navigation system, and when approaching the target, the homing head is turned on.

It is equipped with highly sensitive sensors operating in different ranges of the spectrum. The missile can be guided by the mark of the laser rangefinder-target designator, the heat radiated by the target, and also broadcast the picture from the camera to the helicopter cockpit. The weapon is protected from interference, is able to distinguish the target among infrared traps and operate in the "shot-forgot" mode.

The range of missiles from the current arsenal of combat helicopters of the Russian Aerospace Forces exceeds 15 kilometers. New weapons will allow front-line aviation to hit targets without entering the enemy’s air defense zone."


You got a different source of the product 305 or izdelie 305 missile with a different range? Where the source was originally from https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7767415 I am guessing its a newer variant or version.
 
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GARGEAN

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Yeah, just as you wait for confirmation that "radars" on T-14 (which are not radars at all) don't have 100km either. Good strategy.
 

panzerfeist1

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Yeah, just as you wait for confirmation that "radars" on T-14 (which are not radars at all) don't have 100km either. Good strategy.
There is already confirmation about the T-14s radars regarding its range, using a kord gun as an APS (which far out-ranges your average tank APS using millimeter radars or LIDAR) and using the radar for the tank to provide accuracy.

So lets not try to be too adamant to deny capabilities of military weapons(I get it that you and the talking brick wall with multiple accounts hate Russian related weapons that outperform your favorite weapon related technologies) because you were like this when I brought up the radar range of the Ka-52 even when I showed you multiple sources, and you can even find similar long ranges with the mi-28 like I provided in another thread. And look how that turned out for you.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Unacceptable posts on both sides here. Take a break from posting for a couple of days.

In this instance, it is possible that the Tass article is about the possibility of using the two stage Hermes with the large 210mm diameter booster which has a range of 100km on the Ka-52M. I have grave doubts about its utility on the Ka-52M, but it is conceivable that has been proposed. Its also possibly just bullshit, which isn't unreasonable for a Tass article.
 

panzerfeist1

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One more thing before I leave this thread alone is that the Katran has featured carry options for the kh-35 and those have a pretty decent long range.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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This discussion is not about an unbuilt Kamov design and hence does not belong in this topic.
 

panzerfeist1

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This discussion is not about an unbuilt Kamov design and hence does not belong in this topic.
My Apologies Overscan, Than it was also my fault for also bringing up the the Ka-52M while the alligator unlike the katran and this version have not been built yet.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Current projects that are still planned to be built properly live in Aerospace as current programs. They should really only go to the Secret Projects section when they fail to arrive.
 

dan_inbox

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Current projects that are still planned to be built properly live in Aerospace as current programs. They should really only go to the Secret Projects section when they fail to arrive.
Paul,
I strongly agree with your statement. To me, this is really what SPF is about, and what makes it so uniquely valuable.

However, if you really mean it, then maybe you want to take a hard look (and a broom) to the Space Projects section, where many threads are about ongoing projects being actively built today (Orbital, CCDev, Iranian, to cite a few). Those threads degenerated into simply reposting here marketing communication streams about ongoing projects.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I see "I'll be the first to re-post this current news here. It's readily available on twitter or elsewhere but I rush to be first to post it on SPF (whether it's meaningful or not, whether it's verified or not)", 99% of the time I don't see added value, I see pollution.
To me, not only it is too often garbage, but foremost it's not about unbuilt projects, so it does not really belong here. Definitely not in the Unbuilt Projects sections anyway.

(And maybe this discussion should go to the Site Feedback section)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I rarely look at the Space Projects section- so I probably don’t keep it on topic. We could probably do with a Space focused moderator.
 

Wyvern

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Hi veryone!

Are there any good, clear three-view line drawings of the Ka-92 available?

Also, can anyone help identify the helicopter in the attached 3-view?
Thanks!!

Chuck

I believe that was a study undertaken by Westland in 1973 for a carrier based, light ASW helicopter, however, I could be wrong.
 

Wyvern

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... if the ramp is lowered, the rear prop is automatically tilted upwards ! ;D
Sorry for that !

IF the Ka-92, or another heli with this configuration and a rear ramp actually will
be built and IF the end user considers the risk higher, than for other helis, a system
that disengages and stops the prop, when the ramp is lowered on the ground may
be easier to ealise, I think.

It could be the case in a vertical landing. I was watching some test footage of the SB-1 Defiant the other day and when it was in vertical take off or landing, the propeller was stopped until it transitioned into normal flight, when it was turned on. However, it could have been just a test as it was a test flight or I could have misunderstood the video. Also, the KA-92 is a completely different beast that is yet to be built and whether it will employ a system like this remains to be seen
 
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