Dassault Rafale Projects

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1983

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1983.

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 15-9-1985

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 15-4-1986

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1-10-1986

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 115-11-1986

 

[galgot]

Just watched this super interesting presentation by M.François Lemainque (worked more than 30 years at Dassault) about the genesis of the Rafale and beyond, for Musée de l'Air AAMA Le Bourget. It's in French, but auto-subs should work fine.
Notable are the reasons for the mid wing position, LG attached to fuselage, weight, and other stuffs.
Some juicy anecdotes... Like the guys at Dassault calling the Brit EAP "Encore Au Parking" at the time of the race with BAe for who's demonstrator would fly first
Also, good insight on how/why MBB went on financing the hyper-maneuvering X-31 with Rockwell, instead of continuing the Lampyridae ...

View: https://www.youtube.com/live/o7INSNcfUOE?si=uRwX4ldz798l-rOt

He did a prélude to the presentation, with the Rafale A too :

View: https://www.youtube.com/live/F_0bIa82qn0?si=v5VgeRXIR20STYz0

Did some screenshots of the ACMs studies drawings shown in the presentation, I had only seen at very small res before :

 

[Cjc]

This might seem a pretty strange question, but i was curious, could the rafale fit the ej200 engines? Like is the engine bay big enough or no?

 

[F-2]

This might seem a pretty strange question, but i was curious, could the rafale fit the ej200 engines? Like is the engine bay big enough or no?

I think too big, small size was a key requirement for m88. That said m88-3 has the same static thrust rating so maybe it’s unnecessary?

 

[apparition13]

The A had F404s, which are EJ200 sized. All three are very similar, but I think the M88 is slightly smaller. I don't know if the production Rafales have a smaller engine compartment or if F404s would still fit.

 

[Archibald]

My understanding is that Rafale shrunk a little - when they shifted from the demonstrator with F404 to the M88 prototypes.

Rafale A

Surface alaire : 48 m² (517 sq. ft)
Hauteur : 5,36 m (17,585 ft)
Envergure : 11,18 m (36,68 ft)
Longueur : 15,79 m (51,804 ft)

Rafale

Length: 15.27 m (50 ft 1 in)
Wingspan: 10.90 m (35 ft 9 in)
Height: 5.34 m (17 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 45.7 m2 (492 sq ft)

Between 1986 and 1991 the Rafale was re-shaped and shrunk around the M88 for a specific reason : making it a little more stealth : smaller size means smaller RCS.

The Rafale A got a single M88-2 in 1990-1991 so it flew with different engines.

This had been pioneered with the Mirage 4000 which flew with different flavors of M53s (-2 -5 and P2) across its career.

 

[hesham]

From Air International 1983

 

[hesham]

From this magazine

 

[flateric]

From this same thread
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dassault-rafale-projects.345/post-18472

 

[kken]

Hi!　Rafale mockup and early picture.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1985/1985 - 1542.PDF
https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1983/1983 - 0995.PDF

Srry mate, looks like a few pages are missing. Mind sending them again?

 

[fightingirish]

Hey folks, a briefing 'The beginning of the Rafale adventure: the first flight of the ACX demonstrator on July 4, 1986,' held by François Lemainque, member of the AAMA, is scheduled for 2026-07-04. Probably, the briefing will be recorded and uploaded to YouTube shortly after.
Link (French, other European languages ):
https://aamalebourget.fr/les-briefings-de-laama/
Edit 2026-07-13:
The briefing has been uploaded to YouTube.

View: https://youtu.be/VdBuDX1BAT8

Direktlink:

https://youtu.be/VdBuDX1BAT8?is=iFGePkEptMQGSa_V

 

[Motocar]

I Don't know the "Rafale D" of your drawing.

AFAIK, the real Rafale "D", for "discret", became the current Rafale C (for Chasseur/Fighter), a few more "stealth" than the demonstrator Rafale A.

Otherwise there was this old drawing, but I never found from where it came :

The first time I saw it was in a post on an Argentinian forum attributed to the later expelled forum member "Buitreaux"

 

[Deltafan]

The first time I saw it was in a post on an Argentinian forum attributed to the later expelled forum member "Buitreaux"

Thanks.

Then, I can therefore, finally, definitively exclude it from the list of official Dassault/French projects.

 

[Boomerang503]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that thrust-vectoring was considered at one point as part of the UAE export deal, but I can't seem to find any sources on it. Does anyone know if it was actually considered or if it was just speculation?

 

[Event_Horizon]

The A had F404s, which are EJ200 sized. All three are very similar, but I think the M88 is slightly smaller. I don't know if the production Rafales have a smaller engine compartment or if F404s would still fit.

If I recall correctly, I read somewhere that the Rafale was designed with slightly larger space for the engines than necessary to facilitate potential upgrade to a slightly bigger engine. Or was it something about the intake being designed to support a more powerful engine?

 

[apparition13]

If I recall correctly, I read somewhere that the Rafale was designed with slightly larger space for the engines than necessary to facilitate potential upgrade to a slightly bigger engine. Or was it something about the intake being designed to support a more powerful engine?

There was a 22-23000 pound (in burner) M88 planned, but I don't know if it was larger.