Dassault Rafale Projects

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Absolutely agree with that.

 

[Foo Fighter]

While there is a freedom of speech, there is a responsibility to that liberty which basically put should rein us in when things get heated. No, I am not perfect and accept that is a result of being a human being with all the flaws that entails, quite tough to accept but reality never the less.

 

[hesham]

From Lotnictwo 9/2016,

here is a two Models for Dassault ACX and ONERA Fighter.

And maybe this ONERA fighter as the same here,which had a folded canard ?.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a275733.pdf

 

[litzj]

From Lotnictwo 9/2016,

here is a two Models for Dassault ACX and ONERA Fighter.

And maybe this ONERA fighter as the same here,which had a folded canard ?.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a275733.pdf

it seems doe of wind tunnel experiment, not variable geometry of canard

 

[Deltafan]

From Lotnictwo 9/2016,

here is a two Models for Dassault ACX and ONERA Fighter.

And maybe this ONERA fighter as the same here,which had a folded canard ?.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a275733.pdf

Under the photo is wrote : "DFVLR Göttingen"

Göttingen is a city of Germany.

For DFVLR, Wikipedia says :

The German Aerospace Center (German: Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt e.V.), abbreviated DLR, is the national center for aerospace, energy and transportation research of the Federal Republic of Germany. Its headquarters are located in Cologne and it has multiple other locations throughout Germany
(...)
What was later called the DLR was formed in 1969 as the Deutsche Forschungs- und Versuchsanstalt für Luft- und Raumfahrt (DFVLR; "German Test and Research Institute for Aviation and Space Flight") through the merger of several institutions. These were the Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt (AVA), the Deutsche Versuchsanstalt für Luftfahrt (DVL; "German Laboratory for Aviation"), the Deutsche Forschungsanstalt für Luftfahrt (DFL; "German Research Institute for Aviation") and (in 1972) the Gesellschaft für Weltraumforschung (GfW; "Society for Space Research").
In 1989, the DFVLR was renamed Deutsche Forschungsanstalt für Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR; "German Research Institute for Aviation and Space Flight").

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Hesham, PLEASE take a second to read before posting.

The article is written by WH Staudacher from Deutsche Aerospace AG (DASA) based on research undertaken into spanwise blowing from the 1970s through to 1982.

All the data presented in this paragraph were taken
from the result of the former working group
Wings with Controlled Separation' The group's
activities were directed on the experimental
investigation of flows with stable L.E. vortex systems, especially
on the development of strake wings (1969 - 1978)
and on spanwise concentrated blowing (1915 - 1982).

Members of this team were individuals from
DFVLR (now DLR), the former companies MBB
and VFW (both now DASA) and, temporarily,
ONERA, France, their work being sponsored at
that time by the German Ministry of Defense.

How is this Rafale related in any way? Rafale doesn't use spanwise blowing...

 

[hesham]

From Lotnictwo 9/2016,

here is a two Models for Dassault ACX and ONERA Fighter.

Sorry my dear Paul.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

are those concepts the way for Rafale ?.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a185224.pdf

 

[GARGEAN]

Is that a MiG-29 on second pic?..

 

[paralay]

,

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

First pic is from an article on relaxed static stability by MBB engineers, so.... no.

The rest of the pics are from a nice article on development of the Rafale by Dassault engineer, so.... yes.

 

[Deltafan]

Did anyone come across an image of the project stealth Rafale-D?

I Don't know the "Rafale D" of your drawing.

AFAIK, the real Rafale "D", for "discret", became the current Rafale C (for Chasseur/Fighter), a few more "stealth" than the demonstrator Rafale A.

Otherwise there was this old drawing, but I never found from where it came :

 

[paralay]

,

 

[hesham]

The rest of the pics are from a nice article on development of the Rafale by Dassault engineer, so.... yes.

Thank you my dear Paul,

and if someone can make the drawings clearer,that will be useful.

 

[Deltafan]

My drawing was copied from the "TsAGI Technical Information" magazine in 1986–88

Maybe it was only an assumption and nothing really concrete. in any case, I don't know anything that corresponds to this drawing.

 

[alanqua]

The Rafale D on the drawing reminds me of this (see in attachment, first file was an article in an old French magazine (Air).

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks a lot Alanqua

Do you know the name of the French air magazine and the year of the drawings ?

Were they drawings from Dassault or artist's views ? (AFAIK engines with thrust vectoring is a relatively recent concept in Dassault's philosophy)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Looks like an unofficial take on "Rafale-D", before we saw the real deal.

 

[hesham]

Amazing my dear Alanqua.

 

[alanqua]

Hello,
Sorry, i do not remember exactly the French magazine. I think the title was something like "AIR", and it had been issued only twice. This drawing (the first one) was a sort of fantasy in my opinion, because I never saw such a version of Rafale (maybe we should ask to Dassault, you never know). But it looked quite interesting and realistic. I do not remember where comes from the second drawing, maybe from a English book I had on combat aircraft.
Regards
Alain

 

[TomcatViP]

Yes. It was the cover of a new aerospace magazine during the 80/early 90's in France (that did not find much success).

(Had it (bought it at the time) and lost it some years ago).

Remember those were the times of the airfix/Italieri F-19 exclusive model release

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks for the answers

 

[martinbayer]

Remember those were the times of the airfix/Italieri F-19 exclusive model release

To the best of my knowledge Airfix, as opposed to Revell, Monogram, Testors, or Italeri, never did an F-19 in any scale, but I'd be happy to be corrected - always eager to learn something new.

Martin

 

[Grey Havoc]

Just to clarify any potential confusion over the ACT designation, the Rafale project was initially known as the Avion de Combat Tactique, or Tactical Combat Aircraft, with the naval version known as the ACM or Avion de Combat Marine (Naval Combat Aircraft).

 

[TomcatViP]

Remember those were the times of the airfix/Italieri F-19 exclusive model release

To the best of my knowledge Airfix, as opposed to Revell, Monogram, Testors, or Italeri, never did an F-19 in any scale, but I'd be happy to be corrected - always eager to learn something new.

Martin

Thank you Martin. I stand corrected.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Another images.

https://sites.google.com/site/w879sp2/photographs/concept-modelsACX LATE large image.

https://flic.kr/p/QWMJ7w

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

 

[blackkite]

Hi!　Rafale mockup and early picture.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1985/1985 - 1542.PDF
https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1983/1983 - 0995.PDF

 

[Lascaris]

I've noticed that the French wikepedia article on Rafale, mentions Dassault contacting Grumman over joint development of ACT in July 1981 and Grumman being positive to the idea. Do we know more about it and how serious it was? Rafale as a joint Franco-American project (presumably taking the F/A-18E niche had it gone forward? ) is intriguing...

 

[ZacYates]

Something that caught my eye on Wikipedia is the cancelled Rafale N for the Aéronavale:
“Originally called the Rafale BM, was a planned missile-only two-seater version for the Aéronavale.Budgetary and technical constraints have been cited as grounds for its cancellation.”

Has anyone any drawings or model photographs of this proposal? Or is it safe to presume it would have been a B with M undercarriage and hook?

 

[Archibald]

Something that caught my eye on Wikipedia is the cancelled Rafale N for the Aéronavale:
“Originally called the Rafale BM, was a planned missile-only two-seater version for the Aéronavale.Budgetary and technical constraints have been cited as grounds for its cancellation.”

Has anyone any drawings or model photographs of this proposal? Or is it safe to presume it would have been a B with M undercarriage and hook?

Throwing my two cents in this... it would have been very much a B with M undercarriage and hook, as you say. By missile only, it means that the internal gun would be deleted (Phantom Vietnam style, hmmm) and the whole aircraft would have been for strike.
From memory, that naval two-seat Rafale had some cost and weight issues. Weight, explains why the gun woud be deleted, to shave some hundreds of pound. That was in the second-half of the 90's when the CdG ran into cost overruns, some technical glitches, and its possible sistership started its slow agony.
In the end the French Navy, facing the urgency of its antiquated Crusaders falling apart, went for single seaters to F1 standard, delivered in May 2001.
F1 was a very downwashed standard but the emergency was too strong, and it was good enough for air defence, lightyears ahead of the Crouzes, obviously.
Then the French navy decided its single seaters (multirole F2 and F3 standards), could achieve strike without overworking the lone pilot. Since the Super Etendard exactly worked this way.

The Armée de l'Air by contrast was in far less urgency and had the luxury of Mirage IIIE / F1CT / Jaguar (1-seaters) vs Mirage 2000D/N (2-seaters) comparative experiences. They went for option 2 and got two-seat Rafales.

 

[F-2]

You can really see in this picture how substantial the Rafale was redesigned from A to D/C/B/M. Rafale D is actually from the 1988 contract between the French government and Dassault and means any Rafale other then A. Just about everything was redesigned and the production Rafale is smaller because M88 needed less space then the F404.

Controversial opinion while I agree the Rafale is a very good looking plane I’m of the opinions the Rafale A is better looking.

 

[Archibald]

Nice photo ! All the pre-Rafales together. Must have been some times between 1993 and January 1994, as the Rafale A was send to Le Bourget museum afterwards: 867 flights since July 4, 1986.

In passing: these prototypes respective fates from 1986 to today.

https://omnirole--rafale-com.transl...r_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=nui

 

[F-2]

This is around when the Rafale B prototype was carrying rbe2 and most of its avionics. So it’s mother duck leading her children one last time before they grow up.

Someone wanted a history of the Rafale A program this is the best I got. Has a lot on design, art of the Rafale in naval colors and video of the unveiling with the A is more military looking colors.

https://omnirole-rafale.com/rafale-a/

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxaweK9ET2M

 

[F-2]

https://omnirole-rafale.com/des-annees-80-a-nos-jours/1986-a-2000/Rafale B with CFT tanks in 2001! Artists work of the Rafale M with super sonic anti ship missiles that where cancelled. Also interesting tidbit the Rafale A was larger not just for the F404 engines but to meet EFA requirements. How would that have looked?

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/reports/2007/R3687.pdf

 

[Archibald]

And Spain joined EFA only late 1988. I thought it was done deal in the summer 1985. We may have a TL here - whatif Spain joined Rafale ?

 

[Antonio]

And Spain joined EFA only late 1988. I thought it was done deal in the summer 1985. We may have a TL here - whatif Spain joined Rafale ?

Nice what if. Spanish government selected the EFA because it offered there opportunity to get involved into a shared development experience while the Rafale would have been just buying the finished product. Considering what if Spain not accepted into the EFA team, maybe the Super Hornet would have been a more favored choice than the Rafale.

 

[GTX]

Maybe not an Ejército del Aire Rafale but rather an Armada Española one, but close...

 

[Archibald]

I swear I've red someday Franco at some point wanted to buy a Clemenceau class carrier, but I've never been able to found again that brief mention...

 

[Antonio]

I swear I've red someday Franco at some point wanted to buy a Clemenceau class carrier, but I've never been able to found again that brief mention...

I also remember it. I think it was in the magazine Defensa...a few decades ago. I can't find any reference about it from the web.
Detailed description of the Spanish Armada naval procurement plans can be found at Wikipedia. There was a rather ambitious plan issued in 1965 which included two aircraft carriers similar to the RN Colossus class. I think that was the moment someone probably suggested to go even further, considering the Clemenceau class.
Nevertheless, that should be considered a fantasy well beyond the budget. In 1967, what the Armada received was the WWII veteran USS Cabot (CVL-28) instead. And she operated helicopters until 1976 when the AV-8A squadron was activated.

In the what if world, the Dassault Etendard could had made a likely choice for the air wings of that planned "Colossus-like" carriers.