Dassault Mirage 2000

Triton said:
I didn't realize that Les Chevaliers du Ciel was a fictional film released in France in 2005. The film was dubbed into English and released as Sky Fighters. Some gorgeous flying photography nonetheless. Is this France's version of Top Gun?
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No, it is movie based on comic books from 60's and 70's
 
Brief here:

Initially titled Michel Tanguy, it made its debut in the first issue of the Franco-Belgian comics magazine Pilote* on October 29, 1959.[1] The series provided Pilote with a competitor to the older, but similar series Buck Danny serialised in Spirou magazine (actually also co-created by Charlier as his first major bande dessinée series, incidentally), and Dan Cooper, which appeared in Tintin magazine.
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en.m.wikipedia.org

Tanguy et Laverdure - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

*added source:
The magazine was founded by experienced comic book writers Goscinny and Charlier, and artists Albert Uderzo and Jean Hébrard.
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Possibly the first official M2K aerial kill scored against a Houti drone. M2K-5 could have been operating from Djibouti.

Durant la matinée du 9 mars 2024, quatre drones de combat ont été lancés dans la direction du navire français explique un communiqué de presse du ministère des Armées et tous ont été abattus, avec la participation d’avions de combat de l’armée de l’Air et de l’Espace. En toute logique il ne peut s’agir que de Mirage 2000-5 de l’escadron de chasse 3/11 Corse basé à Djibouti.
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During the morning of March 9, 2024, four combat drones were launched in the direction of the French ship, explains a press release from the [French] Ministry of Defense and all were shot down, with the participation of combat aircraft from the Army of the 'Air and Space.
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Logically it can only be Mirage 2000-5 from the 3/11 Corse fighter squadron based in Djibouti.
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www.aerobuzz.fr

Mirage 2000-5 français contre drones Houthis en Mer Rouge - Aerobuzz

Des avions de combat français sont intervenus dans l’interception de drones Houthis en Mer Rouge. On évoque à ce propos une première victoire aérienne officielle de l’armée de l’air et de l’espace depuis… 1945. L’affrontement entre rebelles Houthis soutenus par Téhéran et puissances occidentales...
www.aerobuzz.fr www.aerobuzz.fr
 
I've checked the last official French air to air victory. Was on April 24, 1945 when Henri Suisse flying a Spitfire shot down a Me-109.

Of course in September 1987 a lybian Tu-22 ate a Hawk missile near N'Djamena, Tchad. Mirage F1s almost did the job but were told to give it up. And so an Army missile got the kill, instead of an AdA pilot.
 
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Notice that the War Zone is reporting an opposite scenario than what was heard before (the EGM/BGM soldier in service while the A2A oriented 2K-5 are sold) .

(See post #243 above)
 
TomcatViP said:
Notice that the War Zone is reporting an opposite scenario than what was heard before (the EGM/BGM soldier in service while the A2A oriented 2K-5 are sold) .
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Just the usual TWZ fail… as post #243 indicates the EGM/BGMs were retired in early 2022 and have already been offered for sale (for parts) as they are no longer flyable.

www.ekathimerini.com

Air Force looking to sell 18 Mirage fighters | eKathimerini.com

The Hellenic Air Force General Staff is looking for a buyer willing to take 18 of its 4th generation Dassault Mirage 2000EGM/BGM multi-role fighters, which served until 2022.
www.ekathimerini.com www.ekathimerini.com
 
NMaude said:
Perhaps Greece could sell them back to Dassault who could remanufacture them and France donate them to Ukraine?
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It occurs to me that India is a good paying customer and has a large Mirage 2000 fleet of similar vintage. As I recollect, their Mirages are almost entirely strike oriented.

In any case, France really needs to cultivate good relations with their paying customer base. The Rafale has been a fabulous export success in recent year, thanks to its serviceability and France’s ability to sell to fairly neutral countries like India. From what I can see, India might be up for very significant three digit Rafale order totals in coming years if Macron supports Dassault. Helping to maintain the numbers of Mirage 2000 fleet can only help build good will and overcome reluctance for further Rafale orders. India is literally the future for defense export sales.
 
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-The upgraded Mirage 2000 saga started with Taiwan, in 1992.

-Then the Armée de l'Air upgraded 37 Mirages to the same standard from 1997 [as stopgap PESA - MICA interceptors waiting for the Rafale F2s - which arrived in 2004].

Besides these two, only Greece and two Gulf states (UAE and Qatar) bought upgraded Mirage 2000s. Red spots in the picture below.

All the others - Peru, India, Egypt - had bought first generation 2000s, in the 1980's. As for Brazil, it got second-hand Mirage 2000C from AdA stocks. Hopeful foot-in-the-door for Rafales... except Gripen decided otherwise. Drats.

Now, since neither Taiwan nor France can afford to dump their 2000-5s... because China threat and lack of Rafales...

... thus, on paper at least, the number of upgraded Mirage 2000s that could be delivered second hand to Ukraine someday should be
- Greece: 25 airframes
- UAE: 31 airframes
- Qatar: 12 airframes
So, 68 Mirages ? Without counting attrition, obviously. Probably drop the number to 50- something.

-Now, I have no idea whether Indonesia got any of the above aircraft...

-While the Greek ones were not for sale until now, the UAE and Qatar Mirages have a long and rich saga of "almost sold !" to many countries: Iraq, Marocco, and of course Indonesia.

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I had never quite realized that, after Taiwan and the AdA 2000-5F upgrade (let's say, 1992-1997: 54 and 37) Dassault over the next decade only landed three additional contracts: to Qatar, to the UAE, and to Greece.

No surprise that by 2007 after the last Greek deliveries they stopped the Mirage production line and put all their energy on Rafale sales. Which failed every time: until Egypt early 2015 (god bless them !).

And things got even worse when the 2008 crisis sunk Falcon bizjet deliveries... probably another nail in the Mirage coffin.
 
Archibald said:
-The upgraded Mirage 2000 saga started with Taiwan, in 1992.

-Then the Armée de l'Air upgraded 37 Mirages to the same standard from 1997 [as stopgap PESA - MICA interceptors waiting for the Rafale F2s - which arrived in 2004].

Besides these two, only Greece and two Gulf states (UAE and Qatar) bought upgraded Mirage 2000s. Red spots in the picture below.

All the others - Peru, India, Egypt - had bought first generation 2000s, in the 1980's. As for Brazil, it got second-hand Mirage 2000C from AdA stocks. Hopeful foot-in-the-door for Rafales... except Gripen decided otherwise. Drats.

Now, since neither Taiwan nor France can afford to dump their 2000-5s... because China threat and lack of Rafales...

... thus, on paper at least, the number of upgraded Mirage 2000s that could be delivered second hand to Ukraine someday should be
- Greece: 25 airframes
- UAE: 31 airframes
- Qatar: 12 airframes
So, 68 Mirages ? Without counting attrition, obviously. Probably drop the number to 50- something.

-Now, I have no idea whether Indonesia got any of the above aircraft...

-While the Greek ones were not for sale until now, the UAE and Qatar Mirages have a long and rich saga of "almost sold !" to many countries: Iraq, Marocco, and of course Indonesia.

View attachment 724075
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At this point, it seems that the Indonesians purchase of the Qatar airframes died last month.

The last transfer of used French Mirage 2000s was two dozen retired airframes back to India in 2021, of which more than half were apparently inducted and the rest broken up for spares. I could see the Indians taking every available airframe as a politically acceptable short term alternative to “Make in India.” Taiwan is politically tricky, but with the recent and (extremely public) $329 million support contract until December 2028, it’s clear that they are keeping the Mirage 2000 in service for quite a while more and could soak up any available low hour 2000-5 or 2000-9 airframes. The Taiwan fleet has seen a lot of flight hours and the climate is far more adverse than Greece or the Persian Gulf.

On the other hand, giving away fighter planes is an expensive exercise because you also have to pay for the support of said fighters. Honestly, I’m not sure Argentina will be able to support 24 F-16s without substantial ongoing financial assistance. And believe it not, keeping China defense contractors out of South America is now a higher foreign policy priority than a certain ongoing conflict.

An unspoken factor is the inevitability of attrition in a war zone….. and the negative effect of combat losses on the marketability of a fighter or an entire manufacturer. The MiG-29 got an undeservedly bad reputation despite being a contemporary of the Su-27. Why? The MiG was more widely exported early on and there were highly visible combat losses, inevitably through no fault of the MiG OKB itself. Obviously, the Mirage brand hasn’t been marketed since the end of 2000-5/9 production, but the loss of any Dassault type will undermine the current marketing of the Rafale. This is also why providing Rafales to the suggested combatant is commercial suicide for Dassault. Attrition is inevitable in a war. And it always looks bad.

Honestly, the F-16 and F-15 benefited from their reputation for invincibility in Israeli hands. You think of the sheer luck (not to mention superior mission planning, piloting and maintainence) that not a single one was lost in the Osirak raid, or over Lebanon in 1982 or on the long distance F-15 raid on the PLO in Tunisia. Honestly, the American funding of the fighters for Israel was paid back many times over in increased export sales. Looking further back, the Mirage’s reputation was largely built on the 1967 War.
 
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Reported rumors in Greek press of an oncoming transfer of M2K to Kiev (aside of their F-16 Bk30):

Greece could transfer up to 32 F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine, according to Greek media, as Kyiv waits frustratedly for the first of the Western-made jets to arrive in the coming weeks.

It is "almost certain" that Athens will transfer the fast jets to Kyiv, the Greek edition of Newsbreak reported, adding Ukraine could also receive 24 French-made Mirage 2000-5 fighter jets.
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www.newsweek.com

Ukraine eyes unexpected F-16 boost from European ally

Greece is working through a major overhaul of its military, including its fighter jet fleet, and Ukraine may be set to benefit.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
 
The Greek aircraft are the few 2000s that make sense in a transfer to Ukraine: as A2A interceptors with MICAs, and the very last Mirages ever manufactured, 1999-2007.
 
I am pretty sure that their Exocet carrying ones would make more sense.
 
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Nope. They are antiquated first-gen Mirage 2000s from the 1980's. The ones unmodernized to -5 standard, it means they are still running on RDI and Super 530D. Provided of course the Greeks didn't retire their Super 530D, leaving the Mirage toothless... as did France after 2012 until the last RDIs were retired a decade later.

By the way it has been somewhat very convincingly demonstrated that the Ukrainians don't need Exocets to thoroughly devaste the Russian Black Sea Fleet...
:D:D:D:D
 
Archibald said:
Nope. They are antiquated first-gen Mirage 2000s from the 1980's. The ones unmodernized to -5 standard, it means they are still running on RDI and Super 530D. Provided of course the Greeks didn't retire their Super 530D, leaving the Mirage toothless... as did France after 2012 until the last RDIs were retired a decade later.

By the way it has been somewhat very convincingly demonstrated that the Ukrainians don't need Exocets to thoroughly devaste the Russian Black Sea Fleet...
:D:D:D:D
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I think only RDM Mirage carry Exocet?
 
Not much of a difference except even older and less capable. RDM = Radar De Merde, also known as Tefal: a famous brand of frying pans. Why ? because the radar heat a lot, but doesn't stick - to a target.

This was French pilots very own "Blue Circle" radar joke. I can only imagine the day Dijon air base RDM Mirage 2000s trained with the ballasted Tornado F2s. Tefal versus blue circle - cement interceptors versus frying pan fighters...

Le premier Mirage 2000C de série fait son vol inaugural le 20 novembre 1982, équipé du réacteur M53-5 et d'un radar RDM. Les livraisons à l'Armée de l'air française commencent début 1983 et, en décembre de cette même année, pilotes et mécaniciens de l'escadron de chasse 1/2 Cigognes commencent leur formation. Le 2 juillet 1984, jour du cinquantième anniversaire de la création de l’Armée de l’air, huit Mirage 2000C et quatre Mirage 2000B effectuent leur transfert officiel vers leur base d'origine, la base aérienne 102 Dijon-Longvic. Les deux autres unités de la 2e escadre de chasse sont déclarées opérationnelles en juillet 1985 (EC 3/2 Alsace) et juin 1986 (ECT 2/2 Côte d'Or)7.

  • Mirage 2000C (RDM) : version intérimaire équipée du radar RDM (le radar RDI prévu n'était pas encore disponible) et du moteur M53-5 ;
    • Mirage 2000C S1, nos 1 à 15 : équipés de radar RDM et armés de 2 missiles air-air Matra R550 Magic puis Magic II (à partir de 1985) en externe voilure (Magic II jusqu'à l'apparition du MICA pour les 2000-5 et plus tard sur les 2000D modifiés) et de 2 canons DEFA de 30 mm (pour tous les monoplaces : 2 canons types 30-550-F4, avec une cadence de tir nominale de 1800 à 2000 coups/min et cadence lente possible de 1150 à 1300 coups /min, 125 cartouches lovées dans un caisson pour chaque arme) ;
    • Mirage 2000C S2, nos 16 à 19 : équipés de radars RDM à capacité « look down » (détection vers le bas) améliorée ;
    • Mirage 2000C S3, nos 20 à 37 : capables de tirer également des missiles air-air Super 530F ;
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The Tornado F2 was the initial version of the Tornado ADV in RAF service, a total of 18 aircraft were built. Making its first flight on 5 March 1984, it was powered by the same RB.199 Mk 103 engines used by the IDS Tornado, capable of four wing sweep settings, and fitted to carry only two underwing Sidewinder missiles.[15] Serious problems were discovered with the Foxhunter radar, which meant that the aircraft were delivered with concrete and lead ballast installed in the nose as an interim measure until they could be fitted with the radar sets. The ballast was nicknamed Blue Circle, which was a play on the Rainbow Codes nomenclature, and a British brand of cement called Blue Circle. On 5 November 1984, the first interim Tornado F2 was first delivered to the RAF. These aircraft were primarily for training by No. 229 Operational Conversion Unit RAF.[30] From July 1986, the F2's short career came to an end as they were replaced by the improved Tornado F3 entered service; the interim aircraft were promptly placed into storage.
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Archibald said:
The Greek aircraft are the few 2000s that make sense in a transfer to Ukraine: as A2A interceptors with MICAs, and the very last Mirages ever manufactured, 1999-2007.
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The 12 Qatari Mirages 2000-5, having been replaced by Eurofighters, are also for sale, and so are the 62 Emirati Mirages 2000-9 as the Rafale is currentlyreplacing them. So, provided someone is ready to cough up the money and Ukraine is capable of adapting another western fighter, I could very well see the Greek, Qatari and Emirati Mirages 2000 ending up in the Ukrainian air force. They would provide a potent replacement for Ukraine's Su-24s (the Qatari RADs would also provide a useful reconnaissance capability) and maybe a squadron of MiG-29s.
 
France should buy some and use their seamless integration potential to up their fighter jet fleet size at the lowest cost possible. They are in need for their 1rapid/low logistics deployment capability.

See it also globally with the AdlAE having not much around South America and the Pacific. Inevitably, anything severe will see opportunistic attempt to grab lands by locals nations or groups. This is what the large reserve dissolved by the singular Macron bazaar endeavor could have stand for.

Just buy some, station them all around territories and use local resource, industry and reserve to man and sustain them.
 
Topi said:
The 12 Qatari Mirages 2000-5, having been replaced by Eurofighters, are also for sale, and so are the 62 Emirati Mirages 2000-9 as the Rafale is currentlyreplacing them. So, provided someone is ready to cough up the money and Ukraine is capable of adapting another western fighter, I could very well see the Greek, Qatari and Emirati Mirages 2000 ending up in the Ukrainian air force. They would provide a potent replacement for Ukraine's Su-24s (the Qatari RADs would also provide a useful reconnaissance capability) and maybe a squadron of MiG-29s.
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Those UAE Mirages must have some low hours on them, could be a very good buy for many air forces.
But with Qatar and UAE selling theirs, Peru planning to retire theirs in 2025, Greece also beginning to retire theirs..
Who do you think will continue to operate them past 2030?
France with just the 2000N and Ds? India? Egypt?
 
helmutkohl said:
Those UAE Mirages must have some low hours on them, could be a very good buy for many air forces.
But with Qatar and UAE selling theirs, Peru planning to retire theirs in 2025, Greece also beginning to retire theirs..
Who do you think will continue to operate them past 2030?
France with just the 2000N and Ds? India? Egypt?
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It depends on many factors, but primarily on the availability of spares. The M53 engine is now long out of production and spares for it might start running low early next decade, so unless a re-engining effort is performed, there might not be much more than a decade remaining for the M2K. Similarly its analog fly-by-wire is dated and might run out of spares. Also, even the RDY-2 radar of the latest -5 Mk. 2 and -9 is mechanically scanned and starting to be rather outdated. However, as Rafale's radar has been continuously tested on a slightly modified M2KB testbed, an upgrade to an AESA and then even the integration of Meteor might be feasible. In any case, Taiwan seems to have decided to upgrade their M2K-5 fleet and retain it for at least some years. France's M2K-5F fleet will linger at least to the later half of this decade due to slow Rafale acquisition and the recently upgraded D's might endure well into the 2030's. India's and Egypt's Mirages 2000 are very old airframes so might not have much time left. If Ukraine is provided with M2K, they will serve until the end of the war and some time thereafter, but afterwards I expect major changes to the Ukrainian air force sometime after peace (neither the Soviet aircraft, F-16 A/B MLUs nor M2K's will last much more simply due to airframe life) with consolidation on one American (nearly certainly F-16V) and one European (Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen are all possibilities) type.
 
Service life is not really important in this conflict. What would prevail is availability. Something rugged as the M2K, but in some aspect, modern would reach that goal.

Easier to maintain for Kiev than an hypothetical F-16V.

Then there is the ammo pack: naval, A2A, A2G and recon. All at once. Everything Ukraine needs.

Remember also that a punctured aluminum skinned delta wing flies as well as a brand new one (just add a bit of gas and alpha) and requires only basic workmanship to be returned to combat. What would Kiev do with their F-16 composite skinned wings? Not an easy patch.

Also, a clean Mirage without a functionnal landing gear lands as well without. An F-16 deprived of a functionnal landing gear is in all probability one lost.

Yes, the M2K is not shinny new, but it can engage on its own term and do good. Adding Meteor would also bring them easily to parity with what Russian has best.

I am not saying that Kiev would do better with Mirage. On the contrary. The F-16/AMRAAM combo is what they need best. But having also the Mirage in their arsenal would give them an easier initiative on the offense with a bit of more margin in risk taking.
 
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Topi said:
If Ukraine is provided with M2K, they will serve until the end of the war and some time thereafter, but afterwards I expect major changes to the Ukrainian air force sometime after peace (neither the Soviet aircraft, F-16 A/B MLUs nor M2K's will last much more simply due to airframe life) with consolidation on one American (nearly certainly F-16V) and one European (Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen are all possibilities) type.
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I'm not seeing Gripen in that list. It's expensive to buy up front and isn't notably greater performance than the F16V. Also, if you went with the F16Vs as the high part of the split, there aren't enough Gripens around to fill out the numbers that the low split is supposed to bring.

I'd expect UkrAF to do a high/low split with either Eurofighter or Rafale as the high end and F16V as the low.
 
Ukraine will probably get F-35 at the end of hostilities. There is nothing safer than having 50 Ukrainian owned F-35 to tune down Moscow velleities for the next 10 to 20 years. With NATO membership granted, why would they get F-16 only?

Taiwan can't get F-35 because of the invasion, with the risk of the technology falling in the hands of China, and to keep the statu-quo open. Not the same here.
 
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