• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Dassault Mirage 2000

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
467
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Some Dassault Mirage 2000 goodness from Les Chevaliers du Ciel HD Promo!

http://youtu.be/HEe3xfWfkG8

http://youtu.be/60XPS66MxmA
 

2IDSGT

Ah tale yew wut!
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
371
Reaction score
1
You'll never see the the Americans do anything that cool for the camera. :eek:
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
467
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
2IDSGT said:
You'll never see the the Americans do anything that cool for the camera. :eek:
I didn't realize that Les Chevaliers du Ciel was a fictional film released in France in 2005. The film was dubbed into English and released as Sky Fighters. Some gorgeous flying photography nonetheless. Is this France's version of Top Gun?
 

2IDSGT

Ah tale yew wut!
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
371
Reaction score
1
Triton said:
2IDSGT said:
You'll never see the the Americans do anything that cool for the camera. :eek:
I didn't realize that Les Chevaliers du Ciel was a fictional film released in France in 2005. The film was dubbed into English and released as Sky Fighters. Some gorgeous flying photography nonetheless. Is this France's version of Top Gun?
Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_Fighters

Les Chevaliers du Ciel was filmed in co-operation with the French Air Force. Initially the standard safety rules applied, but eventually the minimum allowed altitude was reduced to 3 m (10 ft) and the minimum distance between aircraft was reduced to 1 m (3 ft).[citation needed] The filming of these flight sequences seen in the film were mainly done from the air, as opposed to Top Gun where most of the filming was done from the ground.[citation needed]
To achieve this, one of the Mirage's external fuel tanks was modified to fit a camera. A HD camera was considered for this purpose, but it did not fit in the fuel pod. Tracking shots were done from a hired Lear Jet.
Additionally, jet aircraft are not allowed to fly over Paris. As a result of this, all the Paris filming had to be done on the actual Bastille Day (14 July) for which the filming crew got special permission.
Good luck convincing the USN to take those kind of risks for the next TopGun movie (if such a thing is ever made).
 

kaiserbill

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,299
Reaction score
118
Dassault certainly has made some beautiful looking planes.
 

helmutkohl

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
205
Reaction score
199
Notice how the Mirage seems to have better roll authority than a Rafale at high alpha.
Unpopular opinion here but really loved the Mirage 2000
and as a 4th gen aircraft I felt they could have held on to the design a bit longer with more upgrades and variants
and went on to an actual mid-weight 5th gen design, instead of a 4.5 gen in the rafale.

While the AF could make do with just upgraded and new Mirage 2000 variants.. their navy would have to wait longer of course, but could have went for the F-18A/C in the meantime to replace the F-8s and Entendards
and today the F-18 would be phased out by the 5th gen French aircraft already
 
Last edited:

galgot

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
862
Reaction score
813
Website
galgot.com
Notice how the Mirage seems to have better roll authority than a Rafale at high alpha.
Unpopular opinion here but really loved the Mirage 2000
and as a 4th gen aircraft I felt they could have held on to the design a bit longer with more upgrades and variants
and went on to an actual mid-weight 5th gen design, instead of a 4.5 gen in the rafale.

While the AF could make do with just upgraded and new Mirage 2000 variants.. their navy would have to wait longer of course, but could have went for the F-18A/C in the meantime to replace the F-8s and Entendards
and today the F-18 would be phased out by the 5th gen French aircraft already
As much as i love the 2000, its an old plane now. And Rafale opened possibilities to AdlA which it never had before. How many refuelings would 2000s had needed had they be the only ones used for the opening raids in Libya , just as one example.
Rafale IS another generation. For the AdlA/MN at least, it offers more performances than it ever had, with the advantage of having bought a domestic aircraft and kept the expertise of doing fighter plane at home.
Maybe it's not the one you like, but mater of fact, they (AdlA and Marine) like it.
Dassault would not have survived by doing upgraded 2000s .
And yes without Rafale, the navy would have bought Hornets, only now would not buy any "5th gen French fighter", they would buy F-35s... Because without Rafale, no more Dassault, without Dassault, no more French fighter aircraft industry, so i don't know from were they would get that "5th gen French fighter"...

As for the 2000 having "more roll authority" than a Rafale...sigh....
Why have i clicked on that "show ignored content" button ?...
 
Last edited:

helmutkohl

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
205
Reaction score
199
As much as i love the 2000, its an old plane now. And Rafale opened possibilities to AdlA which it never had before. How many refuelings would 2000s had needed had they be the one used for the opening raids in Libya , just as one example.
Rafale IS another generation. For the AdlA/MN at least, it offers more performances than it ever had, with the advantage of having bought a domestic aircraft and kept the expertise of doing fighter plane at home.
Maybe it's not the one you like, but mater of fact, they (AdlA and Marine) like it.
Dassault would not have survived by doing upgraded 2000s .
And yes without Rafale, the navy would have bought Hornets, only now would not buy any "5th gen French fighter", they would buy F-35s... Because without Rafale, no more Dassault, without Dassault, no more French fighter aircraft industry, so i don't know from were they would get that "5th gen French fighter"...

As for the 2000 having "more roll authority" than a Rafale...sigh....
Why have i clicked on that "show ignored content" button ?...
it is only HALF a generation ahead of the Mirage 2000.

the Mirage 2000 is a mid 80s 4th generation jet, in fact newer than the F-16s which are still flying today.
Dassault would not be losing business, they would be producing newer Mirage 2000 models, just like how Lockmart is still producing block 52,62,etc F-16s
While at the same time, they could have been focused on producing an actual new generation design, which probably would have been produced more quickly than the F-35 since Dassault wouldn't have to deal with the burden of having to produce an STVOL version. The main downfall of this is that the Navy would have to wait longer for a domestic replacement, but they would have the F-18s for 20-30 years at most.
Libya would still be done, like how the short range Gripen was able to participate. it wont be as efficient as the Rafale in that regard, but still done.
and yes, the Rafale is better than the Mirage 2000 obviously, but I am sure an actual 5th gen design produced by Dassault would have been better.


lets look at it this way

What happened:
1984 (Mirage 2000) -> 2001 (Rafale) -> 2030? (FCAS)

What could have happened:
1984 (Mirage 2000) -> 2011 (5th gen)
 
Last edited:

galgot

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
862
Reaction score
813
Website
galgot.com
No . I don't see it that way.
Rafale is a generation AFTER the 2000, and that whats count. Again , it gives the AdlA/MN a huge advance in performances over the 2000 and others it replaced.
Compare to a 2000 it has :
-Vastly Superior range.
-Vastly Superior weapon carriage capabilitie.
-Vastly superior advanced electronic warfare and weapon system.
-Datafusion.
-It lands on both land and carrier.
And they are happy with it.
Using Lockheed-Martin PR fighter generation narative for aircratfs other than US made ( even more, other than Lockheed made ) is nonsence. It's like using Apple iPhones generation marketing narative for other phones brands. Govs buying F-35s believes these bs apparently, but i doubt they all buy (very pricely) what their air forces really needs. Plus, they put one more nail in their own defence industry cuffin if they have one.
No way , after the fall of USSR and the cuts in defence spendings, a French Gov would have given enough €€ to Dassault to start a new , more stealthy fighter. No way.
They had to go with what had already been started back in 86 with the Rafale A.
And make a lighter new one that incorporate few stealth, and a lot of datafusion and very advanced counter measures (spectra) and many other thing over the years to what is now the Rafale C/B/M. A truly multirole fighter plane.
 
Last edited:

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
1,474
Hey Helmuthkohl

Since you were a good friend of Mitterrand (and Archibald's real name is François, how about that) you should have forced your Luftwaffe to buy some Mirage 2000s and Rafales instead of Typhoon, back in 1985...
 

helmutkohl

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
205
Reaction score
199
Hey Helmuthkohl

Since you were a good friend of Mitterrand (and Archibald's real name is François, how about that) you should have forced your Luftwaffe to buy some Mirage 2000s and Rafales instead of Typhoon, back in 1985...
yeah actually if forced between the Typhoon and Rafale, Luftwaffe should have bought the Rafale..
then it wouldn't be stuck in this current situation trying to buy Hornets for the nuclear mission

or in my preferred alternate scenario with Mirage 2000s.. Mirage 2000Ns


one more thing I forgot to mention
export potential.
the Mirage 2000 series had far more export potential than the Rafale. Not as popular as the F-16 but there was a need for people who wanted light fighters that weren't American but more reliable than Russians/Soviet (sorry Russian fans). Had Dassault kept the M2K line running longer, with newer models and variants.. it likely would have competed very well with the Gripen, FC-1, etc. Hell, they were very close in getting India to choose the M2K for hundreds of their mediums too.
 

galgot

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
862
Reaction score
813
Website
galgot.com
These upgraded 2000s exist, they are the upgraded Emirate 2000-9 and upgraded indian ones. And they didn't sold much. They incorporate a lot of things developed for the Rafale. But that don't make them Rafales. They still are shorter range one engined planes (moreover with an engine not exactly suited for jabo missions, more for hi alt interception). They can do multirole missions, but not to the extent a Rafale can. Moreover they aren't cheap either.
So why keeping an expensive line running for something you are not sure selling on the already saturated fighter market, and even if you do , at small numbers, and that adds again a competitor to you best product with which you make far higher margin selling.
 
Last edited:

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,996
Reaction score
689
2k has been only minimally upgraded in term of airframe and that is an ill-advised manager choice. A serious airframe refresh would have found a market (that includes offering engines alternatives) .
The Gripen E is nothing more than a Swedish 2k.
The Teja MkII is nothing more than an Indian 2K.
We have here a market of hundreds of airframe that won't have let anyone shy if Dassault had its things kept in order.
Think also Taiwan that could have been useful in sharing production cost.

Even French Mod have expressed a wish to see the airframe modernized.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
1,474
Back in the early 2000's Dassault was very painfully aware that the Rafale program was in perilous shape.
- France had cut orders from 320 to 180 (give or take)
- Even after a complete "takeover" of Armée de l'air and Aéronavale fleets
- At some point before the end of Cold War (and even after, until 1995) the AdA refused to get below a treshold of 450 combat aircraft, plus 42 Crouze +71 S.E aéronavale fleet, total should have been 450+113 = 563 Rafales... you see where this went: 320, then 180... it shrunk...
- Rafale exports orders were deadlocked from 1995 until 2015 - 20 years !
- and this is paramount: Dassault made a deliberate choice to kill the Mirage 2000 so that it did not ate Rafale troublesome export orders (well, non-existing would be a more appropriate term).
- don't forget that Dassault policy is to stay small/medium - never grow too big, with the family and thrusted friends (Eldestenne) always staying in control
- the downside of this policy is, unlike a colossus like Lockheed Martin, Dassault can't afford a F-16E / block 60 & F-35 parallel effort.

A case could be make that making the Rafale twin-jet and tangling with the Typhoon was a strategic mistake, and that single-engine types are always a better bargain (Mirage III, F1, 2000 = 2800 build... and 4500 F-16s).

The problem however far outpace Dassault, because it is related to Armée de l'Air unaffordable, quixotic quest for a twin-jet heavy fighter.
Let's examine their record as of 1985, when Rafale / Typhoon split happened...
- Mirage IV-C, 1958: UNAFFORDABLE, CANNED
- AFVG, 1967: UNAFFORDABLE, CANNED
- Mirage G4, 1969 : UNAFFORDABLE, CANNED
- Mirage G8,1972 : UNAFFORDABLE, CANNED
- ACF, 1976: UNAFFORDABLE, CANNED
- Mirage 4000, 1979-88 : UNAFFORDABLE, CANNED

Dang. And still, they tried again ! :eek:

So why the Rafale then ? because of the F-5 Tiger, F-18 Hornet, Mig-29, also RB.199 / F.404 / EJ200.

The AdA reasoning when starting negociating with the "future Typhoon team" in 1977 was

- Mirage 4000 with big turbofans = F-15 = F-14 = Su-27 = ACF = Mirage G8 / G4 = UNAFFORDABLE, CANNED
(how surprising !)
- Now, the F-17 / F-18, with those smaller turbofans (F404 or RB.199) is a "twin jet affordable alternative".

and that's paramount.

Fundamentally, the 1977-1985 European negociations, before the Typhoon / Rafale split, intended to BUILD A EUROPEAN F-18.

That is, the Armée de l'Air reasoned it could afford its dreamed twin-jet combat aircraft only if
- it was F-18 sized
- allowed by the brand new small turbofans
- and in European cooperation

IF these three parameters were respected, then a twin-jet type was affordable. Also Jaguar and AFVG mixed precedents, and the will for another try.

Well, we all know how it ended...

- F-18 size ? no problem. Digital FBW allowed it. Typhoon and Rafale are both 30% smaller than the older Mirage 4000.

And then, the whole thing imploded
- the brand new small turbofans
Technically, it worked. Alas, tragically, EJ200 vs M88, RR vs SNECMA led to a political conundrum, and split, that could not be healed
- European cooperation
Boom, it imploded. For the reason above (engines) but also because of three 100% french operational requirements
- CATOBAR carrier compatibility
- Nuclear deterrent ASMP compatibility
- France had a shitload of Mirage 2000 and F1 (redundant) interceptors so Rafale was to include strike missions to survive
- Bad luck: for heavy strike the Tornado was already there.
- Henceforth...Typhoon was to replace LW Phantoms, Italy F-104S, and GB half-baked Tornado ADV missile truck
 
Last edited:

helmutkohl

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
205
Reaction score
199
2k has been only minimally upgraded in term of airframe and that is an ill-advised manager choice. A serious airframe refresh would have found a market (that includes offering engines alternatives) .
The Gripen E is nothing more than a Swedish 2k.
The Teja MkII is nothing more than an Indian 2K.
We have here a market of hundreds of airframe that won't have let anyone shy if Dassault had its things kept in order.
Think also Taiwan that could have been useful in sharing production cost.

Even French Mod have expressed a wish to see the airframe modernized.
agreed. I'm not saying a hypothetical later variant Mirage 2K would be superior or equal to a Gripen E.. but it would be roughly in the same class, and would be a more popular export item for most countries than the heavier Rafale.

Although i know some get defensive (especially from France) at my idea.. its actually a compliment to Dassault. They make wonderful aircraft. I just always had an issue with the timing of new models as I felt they were too short.
I also think the Mirage 2000 would have been a better choice for Germany too, and perhaps the Franco-German 5th gen project could have started in the 90s rather than now.

in this gap.. we might even see the Koreans begin to fill the "Western" Alternative, to the F-35 with their KFX. It might be Korean, but it's got a lot of European guts, with IRIS-T, Meteor, and Taurus missiles guided by an AESA radar being developed with Saab. Already some NATO countries have opted for Korean, such as Poland for new battle tanks. an area where European markets used to be considered an alternative to American.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

galgot

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
862
Reaction score
813
Website
galgot.com
Back in the early 2000's Dassault was all aware that the Rafale was in perilous shape.
- France had cut orders from 320 to 180 (give or take)
- Even after a complete "takeover" of Armée de l'air and Aéronavale fleets
- At some point before the end of Cold War (and even after, until 1995) the AdA refused to get below a treshold of 450 combat aircraft, plus 42 Crouze +71 S.E aéronavale fleet, total should have been 450+113 = 563 Rafales... you see where this went: 320, then 180... it shrunk...
- Rafale exports orders were deadlocked from 1995 until 2015 - 20 years !
- and this is paramount: Dassault made a deliberate choice to kill the Mirage 2000 so that id did not ate Rafale troublesome export orders (well, non-existing would be a more appropriate term).
- don't forget that Dassault policy is to stay small/medium - never grow too big, with the family and thrusted friends (Edestenne) always staying in control
- the downside of this policy is, unlike a colossus like Lockheed Martin, Dassault can't afford a F-16E / block 60 & F-35 parallel effort.
Exactly, and even when they were desperate to sell some Rafales, they were not selling much 2000s either. Because indeed lots of potential costumers made their own, KF-50, Teja, Gripen, or bought cheap Migs...ect... And add the F-16 factor.
Only LM can still have F-16 line together with the F-35, for clients the DoD doesn't want to sell F-35s to, because it's financed by the ginormous US defence budget. You can't have that in France.
 
Last edited:

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
1,474
Dassault had sold 1400+ Mirage IIIs. A number than shrunk to 700 Mirage F1s and merely 600 Mirage 2000s.

And it has sunk far lower for Rafale even today... merely 100 export orders.

Dassault cleverly invested in others areas.
- business jets was a major success, and still is (Falcons, 3000+)
Atempts at growingFalcon success upwards, into regional jets and even A320 size airliners, were by contrast giant clusterfucks.
- Falcon 30 and 40 were killed by the 1973 oil shock
- Mercure was a splendid airliner but a financial cataclysm for the company.
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,878
Reaction score
1,474
Only LM can still have F-16 line together with the F-35, because it's financed by the ginormous US defence budget.
Mig-29 and the proliferating Chinese types were / are similar: colossal USSR defense budget back then, colossal PRC defense budget nowadays.

Had Mirage F1 and 2000 not been that redundant (aggravated by the last Mirage III derivatives, the -50 and -NG) maybe Dassault and/or the Armée de l'Air budget would have been in a better shape when starting the Rafale.

Some very old, never properly solved issues weighed heavily on the Rafale decision

- the quixotic twin-jet quest of the AdA

- SNECMA unability to get out of the Atar (M53 was passable, only M88 was brilliant... only to ran into the EJ200 and trigger the Rafale Typhoon split. Frack !)

- that other quagmire that was the Mirage IIIC / IIIE replacement (1965-80)

Basically AFVG & Jaguar, VSTOL, VG, twin-jet - all conspired to make the Mirage III replacement a very troubled affair.
They all failed, one way or another, and only Dassault "Plan B" saved the day, twice: in 1967 with the Mirage F1 (unwanted child) and in 1975 with the 2000 (unwanted, too: F1M53, ACF, 4000 were the prefered options).

The problem is that the two "plan B" ended conflicting with each other: Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 both become "the interceptor with the Super 530" in the early 80's...
 
Top