Current Russian/Ukrainian AAM projects

[Squirrel]

"R-77M" is likely R-97 in the first place.
It can be 810, but hard to tell.

Hm ,R-77M is one type of the AAM and R-97 or Izd 810 is one completely different type of AAM ( very long range btw ).

 

[FighterJock]

So when will the R-97 or Izd 810 enter full rate production Squirrel? It has been a few years since I have heard anything about this missile.

 

[lancer21]

I would bet the R-97 is already operational on Su-57, just like R-87 was likely operation some time ago before we saw it on Su-35 (certainly, integration on Su-35 must have happened after it became operational on Su-57)

 

[Ainen]

Hm ,R-77M is one type of the AAM and R-97 or Izd 810 is one completely different type of AAM ( very long range btw ).

Range head on in a known R-97 screenshot would match double pulse MRAAM better than next generation LRAAM.
Yes, thick, hi-hi optimized missile can simply be that bad from low altitude launch, but simpler answer is 97 is the missile we already know.

 

[Squirrel]

So when will the R-97 or Izd 810 enter full rate production Squirrel? It has been a few years since I have heard anything about this missile.

R-97 or Izd. 810 during serial production in GosMKB 'Vympel' factory in Moscow. Photos are from 2019.

Note: first and third pic from above.We can clearly see the rocket engine chamber of the Izdeliye 810.Also we can see that it has eight wings there.

Производственноконструкторский корпус МКБ Вымпел открыли в Москве после реконструкции в блоге Модернизация / / Сделано у нас

18 ноября в Москве после реконструкции возобновил работу производственноконструкторский корпус машиностроительного конструкторского бюро Вымпел имени ИИ Торопова российского лидера по разработке и производству авиационного вооруженияОбъём инвестиций в проект реконструкции основного...

sdelanounas.ru

 

[Squirrel]

Range head on in a known R-97 screenshot would match double pulse MRAAM better than next generation LRAAM.
Yes, thick, hi-hi optimized missile can simply be that bad from low altitude launch, but simpler answer is 97 is the missile we already know.

As was described in one article, Izd. 810 has 1.5x greater launch distances than Izd. 610M which has max launch distance with launch parameter 'Drmax 1' of 400km.

We must keep on mind that MiG-31BM can launch R-37M from above 20km of height and with real speed of 2.8M ( if tactical/combat situation occurs/demands).

 

[Squirrel]

Titanium Alloys and 'hypersonic speed' of the AAM.

First ever 'hypersonic' AAM that could reach real speed over 5 Mach after burning phase of the solid fuel rocket engine type PRD-134 was R-40 with its own variants: R/T,RD/TD and exported RD-1/TD-1.

AAM type R-40 from 1960's had huge wings made of special Ti-Alloy.

Авиационная ракета средней дальности Р-40 (K-40) | Ракетная техника

Разработка ракеты К-40 началась с переходом от тяжелых истребителей семейства Е-150 с ракетами К-9 и К-8 к двух -двигательному самолету - будущему МиГ-25. Эскизный проект нового самолета в вариантах

missilery.info

Now if we talk about the old R-33, we can see that wings and stabilizers are made of the Steel Alloy not Titanium?

Управляемая ракета большой дальности Р-33 (К-33) | Ракетная техника

Разработка ракеты Р-33 большой дальности для дальних перехватчиков была начата МКБ "Вымпел" в конце 60-х гг. Это был советский ответ на разработанный в США истребитель F-14a с ракетой AIM-54A

missilery.info

New R-37M has wings also made of Ti Alloy ,that is for sure.




Question : If some AAM possess Titanium made wings ,does it mean that it can reach speed over 5M and those with Steel made wings cannot reach it?

Definition :

Hypersonic speed is generally defined as any speed exceeding Mach 5, which is five times the speed of sound.

 

[NMaude]

Lmao at the creator of the video trying to smuggle in the AIM-120 as being somehow comparable to the Meteor, R-77M or PL-15.

That is a lazy cheap shot, the PL-15 hasn't been used in combat (I'll stand corrected if it has) and I don't know if the latest AA-12 Adder variant has been used yet.

 

[Squirrel]

That is a lazy cheap shot, the PL-15 hasn't been used in combat (I'll stand corrected if it has) and I don't know if the latest AA-12 Adder variant has been used yet.

In the meantime ,some comments were erased ,nevermind. Yes , PL-15E was used on May 2025 during Indo-Pak conflict. But more is important that there is several new 'AAM-12 Adder variants'.

First that R-77M ( Izd 180 ?) where we have photo of them under Su-35S's air intakes and photo of its wreckage found in Ukraine ( so yes, that new AAM were used in actual combat).

Signs Russia's Using New R-77M Air-To-Air Missile In Ukraine

The long-range R-77M air-to-air missile, a much-improved version of the AA-12 Adder, appears to have been used in combat. The long-range R-77M air-to-air missile, a much-improved version of the AA-12 Adder, appears to have been used in combat.

www.twz.com

Another variant is so called Izdeliye 171-1 with its specific detail,openings in the wings.It seems that is modification of the Izd 170-1/R-77-1 intended only for the Su-57? Several photos from 2019.

 

[Suslova]

About the Izdeliye 180, I found a Russian patent document, it should be a dual-pulse motor:
«Промежуточное днище выполнено из выгнутой в сторону маршевой камеры полусферической перфорированной оболочки, выполненной из высокопрочной легированной стали и имеющей переменную толщину, увеличивающуюся от центра к внешнему краю. Со стороны стартовой камеры сгорания промежуточное днище прикрыто металлической фольгой и резиновой мембраной»

 

[Squirrel]

^

Thank you. I think these details are important to know because they tell us that it is not classic dual-stage but dual-pulse rocket engine.

''Многорежимный ракетный двигатель твердого топлива работает следующим образом. Включение стартовой и маршевой ступени производится последовательно,возможно, с паузой. При работе стартовой камеры давление продуктов сгорания зарядавоздействует через резиновую мембрану и фольгу на полусферическое металлическоепромежуточное днище, при этом его центральная часть работает на растяжение, авнешние края - на изгиб. Продавливание металлической фольги с резиновой мембранойне происходит по причине того, что давление в стартовой камере не превышаетпредельно допустимого для локального участка фольги с мембраной, соответствующейплощади одной перфорации.При включении маршевой камеры продукты сгорания, проникая через отверстияперфорации, воздействуют на фольгу с мембраной по всей ее площади, вскрывают ееи, проникая в стартовую камеру, истекают через сопло.''

''The multi-mode solid fuel rocket engine operates as follows. The launch and cruise stages are activated sequentially, possibly with a pause.
When the starting chamber is operating, the pressure of the combustion products of the charge acts through the rubber membrane and foil on the hemispherical metal intermediate bottom, with its central part working in tension, and the outer edges - in bending.
The metal foil with a rubber membrane is not pressed through because the pressure in the starting chamber does not exceed the maximum permissible pressure for a local section of the foil with a membrane corresponding to the area of one perforation.
When the cruise chamber is switched on, the combustion products, penetrating through the perforation holes, act on the foil with the membrane over its entire area, open it and, penetrating into the starting chamber, flow out through the nozzle.''


Btw, is this blueprint from that Patent doc. about Product 180?

 

[Suslova]

Btw, is this blueprint from that Patent doc. about Product 180?

View attachment 782647

Almost certain...
But... the weird thing is, even though this photo has been online for at least five years, I still can't find any patent documents related to it...
But... uh... I found a similar design...

 

[NMaude]

Almost certain...
But... the weird thing is, even though this photo has been online for at least five years, I still can't find any patent documents related to it...
But... uh... I found a similar design...View attachment 782677View attachment 782676

What is it?

 

[flateric]

What is it?

На МАКС-2013 была представлена новая зенитная ракета РЗВ-МД

Корпорация Тактическое ракетное вооружение в павильоне D9 в своей экспозиции представила новую зенитную управляемую ракету РЗВ-МД разработки ГосМКБ Вымпел. По данным КТРВ, зенитная ракета РЗВ-МД предназначена для ПВО сухопутных войск во всех видах боя и на марше…

saidpvo.livejournal.com

Новая ЗУР РЗВ-МД на МАКС-2013

Весьма скромно и явно по остаточному принципу на МАКС-2013 на стенде ОАО «КТРВ» в павильоне D9 была впервые представлена новая зенитная управляемая ракета РЗВ-МД с транспортно-пусковым ко…

missiles.ru

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Its a SAM, so not sure of relevance to topic.

 

[Suslova]

Its a SAM, so not sure of relevance to topic.

Yeah, It‘s a SAM，not a AAM
But...I think there are similarities in the design of its tail fins—specifically the two-stage structural configuration of the control surfaces

 

[Deino]

Two RuAF Su-35S no. 02 & 05 seen with Izd. 180 AAM

 

[lancer21]

Looks like 02 might have lunched an R-37 and R-87 during that mission (assuming it was returning from a combat mission).

 

[NovaGA]

Looks like 02 might have lunched an R-37 and R-87 during that mission (assuming it was returning from a combat mission).

That was taken near Moscow. What combat Mission? What’s R-87?

 

[flateric]

You see '97' designation on Su-57 sim HUD in 'Military Acceptance' TV show and assume that "This should be Izd.810. Well, then how do we call a development of R-77. Let's call it R-87. Why not? Voila!"

 

[NovaGA]

You see '97' designation on Su-57 sim HUD in 'Military Acceptance' TV show and assume that "This should be Izd.810. Well, then how do we call a development of R-77. Let's call it R-87. Why not? Voila!"

amazing deduction, I wonder what other designation you could invent this way?

 

[Squirrel]

Looks like 02 might have lunched an R-37 and R-87 during that mission (assuming it was returning from a combat mission).

R-37M and R-77M friend.....

 

[flateric]

amazing deduction, I wonder what other designation you could invent this way?

Designation, huh? You can invent whole new missile - "Izd.270"

 

[Squirrel]

Designation, huh? You can invent whole new missile - "Izd.270"

Invented 15 years ago ....



НЛГ - Направляющие для легкого груза ( изделия 180, 180ПД, 270, 181С, К047)

НТГ - направляющие для тяжелого груза ( изделия (неразборчиво вроде 65), Д7УШК, 810

So for the UVKU-50L ( max carrying weight 250kg) they invented: Products 180,180PD or Pryamotochny Dvigatel,simply ram-jet engine,than 270, 181S and K047?

For the UVKU-50U ( max 750kg) there is : Product 65, D7UShK or Kh-58UShK(TP) and of course 810 or R-97.


''На крылья изд. 180 - на изд. 170. Крестообразное крыло не изменилось, изменились рули (ну и ещё много чего, но об этом громко не говорят и это не очень хорошо видно внешне).''

''On the wings of ed. 180 - on ed. 170. The cruciform wing has not changed, the rudders have changed (and a lot of other things, but they don't talk about it loudly and it's not very visible from the outside).''

So those data are 15 years old and we can see now that actual Izd. 180 looks just as was described.

Izd. 180PD could be this one ,under the wing of the T-50 ?

 

[flateric]

Invented 15 years ago ....

I'm talking of this https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ukrainian-aam-projects.283/page-3#post-732565

 

[Squirrel]

I'm talking of this https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ukrainian-aam-projects.283/page-3#post-732565

Yes ,that was my post. As a MCM follower for several years now, I remember that some members there commented on the new AAM for the Su-57 that was presented to the Moscow's Mayor Sergey Sobyanin.It happened on 18. Nov. 2019 ( 70th Anniversary of the GosMKB Vympel).


Общий вид изделия. Twitter.com/RupprechtDeino

Photo from the article :

Новая ракета «воздух-воздух» для Су-57?​

27 ноября 2019

https://topwar.ru/165143-novaja-raketa-vozduh-vozduh-dlja-su-57.html

Some members posted photos even from 2018 and they commented that the new AAM was developed and constructed from the R-77E parts and components.For them who commented there ( or most of them ) ,that new AAM was designated as 'Product 270' for which we know that exists as the new AAM for the T-50/Su-57.
Main sources for majority of them usually were Russian.Now ,if they were not right about the exact AAM's designation,than it was also my mistake to think that new AAM has the Vympel's designation as Izdeliye 270.

 

[Squirrel]

This was published 5 years ago...

''Russian experimental solid fuel ramjet (SFR) for the "izdeliye 300" ("изделие 300") missile. The engine was tested in 2013-2015.''

Test occurred during 2015.







Source:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1336731015411355650

View: https://x.com/PararamTadam/status/1336731015411355650


Question is, was this test maybe for the Izdeliye 180PD...

 

[NovaGA]

Can we collectively ask comrade squirrel not to make things up, please? It is annoying and some people are starting to believe his words.

 

[Squirrel]

In connection with the earlier mentioned Product 300M ( or maybe the Product 180PD) :

''К основным новым работам в рамках ФПР стоит отнести работы по формированию облика перспективного изделия 300М, исследования баллистических характеристик изделий с комбинированными двигательными установками,а также экспериментальные оценки влияния изменений антенных решеток на основные характеристики радиолокационных головок самонаведения.''

The main new work within the FPR framework should include work on developing the appearance of the promising 300M product, and research into the ballistic characteristics of products with combined propulsion systems,as well as experimental assessments of the impact of changes in antenna arrays on the main characteristics of radar homing heads.''

Программы НИОКР ГосМКБ «Вымпел» имени И.И. Торопова​

Программы НИОКР ГосМКБ «Вымпел» имени И.И. Торопова

В корпоративной газете Вымпел АО Государственное машиностроительное конструкторское бюро Вымпел имени И.И. Торопова (АО ГосМКБ Вымпел им. И.И. Торопова) - ведущего российского предприятия в области разработки и производства…

bmpd.livejournal.com

Maybe the engine that was on the static test on 14. April 2015 was engine 'Product 371' ?

Source: https://nevskii-bastion.ru/rvv-ae-pd/

It is interesting to note that the first Soviet AAM with the ramjet propulsion carried designation K-28, latter known as RVV-AE-PD ( currently known as Product 180PD).First version of the K-28 from the 1980's had four long supersonic air intakes and four foldable stabilisers,than the new proposed version got lattice stabilisers.It seems that final version have shorter air intakes and foldable triangled stabilisers.

 

[lancer21]

I didn't knew of K-28 until now, fascinating. Are there other such interesting articles on nevskii-bastion for missiles in the 1980s-1990s period, or even better an index of AAMs covered?

PS: well i can't seem to be able to access articles such as R-77 which is a bummer.

 

[Squirrel]

I didn't knew of K-28 until now, fascinating. Are there other such interesting articles on nevskii-bastion for missiles in the 1980s-1990s period, or even better an index of AAMs covered?

PS: well i can't seem to be able to access articles such as R-77 which is a bummer.

I think you've heard for the K-100 (KS-172) developed by the OKB 'Novator' ?

https://nevskii-bastion.ru/ks-172/

 

[flateric]

Yes ,that was my post. As a MCM follower for several years now, I remember that some members there commented on the new AAM for the Su-57 that was presented to the Moscow's Mayor Sergey Sobyanin.It happened on 18. Nov. 2019 ( 70th Anniversary of the GosMKB Vympel).

You are stubbornly bring here a myth that missile sub-assembly with red technological spacer in the place of motor section (and that has even no fcuking nozzle) is a 'new missile designated izd.270 based on 170/170-1/180 whatever"
You was told several times that this is BS.

 

[Squirrel]

You are stubbornly bring here a myth that missile sub-assembly with red technological spacer in the place of motor section (and that has even no fcuking nozzle) is a 'new missile designated izd.270 based on 170/170-1/180 whatever"
You was told several times that this is BS.

No my dear flateric. That is not a myth but reality for several years now. Now take a look on this photo ( in fact the sequence from one TV-reportage made in GosMKB 'Vympel' during 2018) and tell/write me what are the differences between the AAM's marked with yellow and the blue line?

Sorry but where are the wings on the AAM which is marked with the blue line?

You asked for the 'f.....' nozzle ? Here you can see it on the lower photo/sequence ,yes, that AAM marked with the red arrow on the trolley .On the right side from the yellow line on the floor we can see completed new AAM's ( Izdeliye 270) .




It is obvious that I must repeat some photos of the new AAM for the Su-57 that is based on the parts /components not from the ''170/170-1/180 whatever" but from the Izdeliye 190/ R-77E as it is mentioned before.

Izdeliye 270 on the trolley during assembly. Do you see the wings anyway?



Where are the wings here ? What about that 'hole ' which we can see inside the ''red technological spacer in the place of motor section'' which of course we can not see on the Izd. 170,170-1 ,171-1, 180 and exported 190 .



I presented this photo earlier and must repeat the question. What is that 'hole' marked with the yellow arrow inside of the single-chamber rocket engine. How is that possible anyway? To have the hole inside of the rocket engine chamber ??? Something like this have not either Product 170 nor 170-1 or 171-1 or exported 190 and of course newer 180/180PD. And as we can see the rocket engine has the red plate not the white one like on Izd 170,170-1, 171-1,180,180PD and 190.



Did you read article which I mentioned in my earlier comment?

''Неизвестная ракета отличается уменьшенной длиной – она короче представленных Р-77 и Р-73. Ее длину можно оценить примерно в 2,5 м. По диаметру корпуса и размаху рулей она сопоставима с Р-77 – 200 и 700 мм соответственно. Весовые показатели изделия неизвестны.''

''The unknown missile is distinguished by its reduced length - it is shorter than the presented R-77 and R-73. Its length can be estimated at approximately 2.5 m. In terms of body diameter and rudder span, it is comparable to the R-77 - 200 and 700 mm, respectively. The weight indicators of the product are unknown.''

Again the same article: https://topwar.ru/165143-novaja-raketa-vozduh-vozduh-dlja-su-57.html

P.S.

I'm not here to bring the myths but to contribute to the topic as much as I can and better. Of course mistakes occur and there is no one who doesn't make mistakes.Check all the details which you can see on this new AAM and will be sure that in fact it is the new AAM,shorter even than R-73/74.

 

[flateric]

You are living in some alternate universe, where logic is absent. Surely this is 'IZDELIYE 270' full of stencils in English.
Enough for me.

 

[Squirrel]

You are living in some alternate universe, where logic is absent. Surely this is 'IZDELIYE 270' full of stencils in English.
Enough for me.

Hi flateric,maybe I'm living in...but,but.... It is not enough for me.

Now, I will show and prove you that there is really some 'kind of the short version' of the R-77 as SRAAM ( Short Range Air to Air Missile).It really exists and it exists for years now.

I must admit that both of us were right but also in the same time we were wrong is some cases.

First ,that AAM with those 'stencils in English' ,it is really Product 190 or R-77E for the export only,logical after all.You were right ,I was wrong.

About that ''red technological spacer in the place of motor section'' ,yes, it really exists and it is common during assembly of the Izdeliye 170-1 and 190 ( also of the newer 171-1).You were right ,I was wrong.

Now take a look pls at this photo from 2018 ( upper part only because lower part of the photo is not the same part of the assembly object).



It is the assembly point where workers will put the real single-chamber single-stage rocket engine in the place where was that ''red technological spacer in the place of motor section''. After its assembly ,workers will put white metal round plate over the single-chamber rocket engine and will put those wings which we can see on the upper pic also.

Now some details ,things ,which I learned in the meantime.This is that new SRAAM and it is not Izdeliye 170-1 or Izdeliye 190. Of course, it was unffinished AAM w/o nozzle e.g and those laser proximity fuse transmitt and receive antennas also. We can also see that rocket engine has red metal round plate not white one like on the Izdeliye 170,170-1 (171-1) or 190.

What does blue arrow show to us? It shows us special metal plate which divides rocket chamber into two parts. So this AAM has in fact, some kind of double-chamber rocket engine.

What does yellow arrow show to us? It shows to us some kind of the mini-booster ( gas-generator in Russian) for the lateral maneuvering and turning.Very similar technical solution we can see on the SAM type 9M330/331 of the 9K330/331 Tor. Those mini-boosters ( 2 pcs) must be in the centre of the mass of the AAM for the 180 degrees turn immediately after launching. We must keep on mind that Su-57 has that rear looking AESA in the tailboom.Second, rear or the main rocket chamber is used for the known purpose.



Now it comes the main detail,main thing in this hole story.

What is this by the way ? Marked with the blue lines of course...



I suppose that it is so called : 4-предохранительно-исполнительный механизм (ПИМ)

Source: http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-105.html

That black rectangular block is used for the connection between the AAM's computer and the fighter's FCS computer .Take a look pls .




Now back to the photo made in Vympel (2018).




Blue lines show us the position of that black rectangular connecting block behind the red cover plate of those laser proximity fuse transmit/receive antennas. Yellow ones show us that detail which is positioned between that laser proximity fuse red cover and the red cover of the radome. How is this possible??? It is,because we can see two different types of the AAM's there and as I pointed earlier ,that Izd 270 on the trolley in the lower left corner has the nozzle ( marked earlier with the red arrow) and has no wings.

In fact, Izd 270 has only lattice stabilisers as aerodynamic control surfaces and three gas-dynamics control surfaces : the main nozzle and two mini-boosters for lateral maneuvering only. Several years ago ,many Russian sources wrote about that new SRAAM with the ''время аэродинамического полета'' or aerodynamicaly controlable flight of 100sec with inertial+radar guidance. Izd 300M and Izd 760 as SRAAM's has IR ( inertial+IR) guidance.This new SRAAM is for the long-term close-in combat.The basis for it was found from the old R-77.

Now you can see yourself ,if I was right or was wrong about that Izdeliye 270.

 

[NovaGA]

Squirell, I’m fairly sure those are just unfinished R-77-1…

 

[lancer21]

Even if we assume for a moment that is true, there is the elephant in the room: why would Vympel show a half finished missile alongside the then prototype stage R-74M2 and that notched wing R-77 variant (R-77-2?)? They could not have shown it at all or they could have shown something else of their vast portfolio. We need a satisfactory answer to this question between dismissing that missile as just a half-finished/section of an R-77.

 

[NovaGA]

Notched wing R-77-1 is definitely one for some kind of static or vibration testing, the windows in the wing are used for attachment of sensors

 

[Squirrel]

Squirell, I’m fairly sure those are just unfinished R-77-1…

OK,it is your opinion and I appreciate that. But what about that wider nozzle because R-77-1 has that narrower nozzle than R-77/E ? Take a look on the pics pls. Another question will be ,what about that black connecting block detail. Why is that block between laser proximity fuse section and the radome section in comparison with R-77E/R-77-1 where that block is clearly behind the laser proximity fuse section.

 

[Squirrel]

Notched wing R-77-1 is definitely one for some kind of static or vibration testing, the windows in the wing are used for attachment of sensors

''MAKET 171-1 IMM'' ( 171-1 ).



Тake a look on the sequences from 17:20 ( red model of the Izdeliye 171-1).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA2pewYPA8s