Amerika Bomber: Me-264, Ta-400 and others

[ysi_maniac]

I have seen that there is some info about steam powered Me-264. But is there info about other projects like Ta-400? There should be a wind tunnel model ...

http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_264http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Ta_400http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwta400.html
Thanks!

 

[airman]

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/ta400.shtml
(with nice profile)

 

[ysi_maniac]

Did Germans design long range (much more range than a Bf-110) Escort Fighter

 

[airman]

Did Germans design long range (much more range than a Bf-110) Escort Fighter

I suppose no, but me-261 could be was adapted for this role ! :

But technically , there was me - 210 and me -410 with more range of Bf-110 ,
others was arado 240 as candidate !
Here coud be coming into an alternate history ....
:

 

[Johnbr]

The word is the UK archive has a box of photos and Lot more on the Ta 400 .But they will not let you to see it.

 

[smurf]

Johnbr, you might like to look at:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help/catalogue/faq.htm#faq7

 

[MiBr]

Looking for a dimensional drawings of the Jumo 211J. I need a similar plan as this:

Cheers
Michal Bradáč

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Fw238 and BMW803 liquid cooling engine. I like America and America bombers. ;D
Recently I feel that Fugaku final shape was very similar to the German America bombers.
Fw238 had almost same shape as my image for Fugaku HA54 variant.
Two upper aft turrets are very interesting. Of course they were remote controlled turrets.
The longitudinal middle point of the bomb bay was almost equal to the air center of the wing.
If not so, bombing was very dangerous because after dropping of all of the bombs, the center of the gravity of the aircraft was not equal to the air center of the wing, the aircraft lost longitudinal balance suddenly.
B-36's nose is very long to adjust the position of C.G. and A.C, because engines are located near trailing edge of the wing.
http://www.luft46.com/fw/fw238.html

 

[airman]

about Bmw 803
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_803http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_803

 

[MiBr]

Looking for a dimensional drawings of the Jumo 211J. I need a similar plan as this:

Cheers
Michal Bradáč

Really nobody has a drawing of the Jumo 211J? :'(

Cheers
Michal Bradáč

 

[airman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_211

http://www.toredgarolsen.net/junkers88.htm

 

[MiBr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_211

http://www.toredgarolsen.net/junkers88.htm

Thanks, but I'm looking for drawings...

Cheers
Michal Bradáč

 

[Johnbr]

Try here.
http://www.enginehistory.org/German/junkers.htm

 

[sagallacci]

I'd guess that the 213J basic block would be externally the same as the earlier 213s. The external changes would be in the blower and accesories group. If you can find a mock up photo (AFAIK only a bench test unit or two was actually built?) and use that as a guide to adapt an existing drawing, might be the way to go.

 

[Bomiwriter]

Greetings Chaps:
Not positive where to post this but someone will find it sooner or later. I'm on a new NB and everything is different from my 2005 gateway for writing-only NB.

Somebody please give heads-up that this attachment is done correctly and arrives for your download or perusal, ok? OK.

I plugged in someplace whereby another member was asking about AH-65 Variations? Jeez...I have a Cd loaded with old Lockheed projects some of which are simply wiieerrrdddd, and there are Cheyennes too. Take care and Hang Tuff.

Humor is a part of life and the cartoon is actually a mid-1930s cartoon from a very old aviation rag...a U.S. one. Now we know the truth behind the numerous mid-1930s so-called USAAC Pursuit Missions, hah!

Bomiwriter

 

[Grey Havoc]

Humor is a part of life and the cartoon is actually a mid-1930s cartoon from a very old aviation rag...a U.S. one. Now we know the truth behind the numerous mid-1930s so-called USAAC Pursuit Missions, hah!

Ah, the good old days. ;D

Looks like both attachments came through ok.

 

[SpicyJuan]

Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Hello, I have a quick question regarding to the Tank Ta 400:

How much influence did the Fw 238 (Project Drawing No 03.10206-2X series) have on the design of the Ta 400? I've heard that some of the Ta 400 was influenced by the Fw 300, but it would be surprising if the Ta 400 (which was designed by Kurt Tank) was not influenced by the work of the Focke-Wulf design team of the Fw 238 which was headed by Dipl-Ings. Bansemier, Kosel, and also Kurt Tank.

 

[lastdingo]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

One should understand most development projects 1944/45 were not about development of anything.

They were about having a justification for keeping employees away from military service (where they would die).


Today's enthusiasts take all those gun, tank and plane projects of late WW2 much too seriously.

 

[SpicyJuan]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

One should understand most development projects 1944/45 were not about development of anything.

They were about having a justification for keeping employees away from military service (where they would die).


Today's enthusiasts take all those gun, tank and plane projects of late WW2 much too seriously.

Excuse me if this comes off as rude, but perhaps you should read up more on the aircraft in question? A brief timeline of the related designs:

1940: Focke-Wulf Transocean Project proposed, cancelled 1941
1941: Focke-Wulf Fw 300 proposed as a replacement to the Fw 200, military conversion ordered by the RLM in 1942, inluenced by the Fw TO Project
1942: Focke-Wulf Fw 238 proposed, cancelled 1943
1943: Focke-Wulf Ta 400 proposed as a contender for the 'Amerika Bomber' specification, strong ties with the Fw 300, but due to the worsening war situation (most probably in conjunction with the development being taken in France), the prototypes were not estimated to be complete by 1944/1945 and the RLM cancelled the project.

Thus, these designs aren't part of the fantasy "Luft '46" category that features the Lerche, Triebflügel, and Daimer-Benz Projects A,B,C, which were purely there so as you said, the designers wouldn't be drafted.

 

[hesham]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Hi Spicy,


can I ask you what was Focke-Wulf TO ?.

 

[SpicyJuan]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Hi Spicy,
can I ask you what was Focke-Wulf TO ?.

The Focke-Wulf TO was an aircraft made to fit the new 1938 Lufthansa specification for a commercial/transport aircraft to carry passengers and cargo non-stop from Frankfurt am Main to New York. Here's some more info from Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Strategic Bombers 1935-1945 by Dieter Herwig and Heinz Rode, the selected information is on page 25 (the picture was taken with my phone, so apologies if it is poor in quality, I'll gladly retake it if you'd like):

Here's some additional information from Luftwaffe Over America by Manfred Griehl, pages 23 and 24 have been photo-shopped together for reading convince:

EDIT: Would a mod please edit my massive photos into spoilers? I can't seem to manage it, many thanks.

 

[hesham]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Thank you Spicy,and I know it,


but I thought you meant anther aircraft.

 

[lastdingo]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Excuse me if this comes off as rude, but perhaps you should read up more on the aircraft in question?

Actually, it was obvious that the Ta 400 would not be a worthwhile aircraft even by 1943.
Germany was losing air superiority in the East during 1943.
It had lost air superiority in the West, at home, and in the Med already.

By mid-1943 the failure of the Battle of the Atlantic was obvious.

The Me 264 had a substantial advantage in development time from the beginning.
4-engine derivations of the He 177 were bound to be available quickly if pursued.

Fuel supply was known to be unsatisfactory by 1943. Only fuel efficient (short range) bombers made much sense.

A shortage of aircraft mechanics plagued the Luftwaffe in 1943 to the point that only the most efficient aircraft designs made sense.

B-17 bombers were slaughtered without escorts over Germany in 1943, and the Ta 400's survivability against contemporary fighters (~1946/47) would have been abysmal.

Finally, something you did not mention in your timeline: The Ta 400 was an active program not only in 1943, but in 1944 as well.



The only thing that points against this being a project to keep development departments busy was the involvement of French engineers who wouldn't have been drafted anyway.

 

[SpicyJuan]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Thank you Spicy,and I know it,


but I thought you meant anther aircraft.

No problem, were you perhaps thinking of the Junkers Ju EF 100?

 

[SpicyJuan]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Actually, it was obvious that the Ta 400 would not be a worthwhile aircraft even by 1943.

The RLM certainly didn't think so as they cancelled the functioning, excellent, and most importantly flying Me 264 in favor of the Ta 400 and He 277 paper projects.

Germany was losing air superiority in the East during 1943.
It had lost air superiority in the West, at home, and in the Med already.
By mid-1943 the failure of the Battle of the Atlantic was obvious.

That's all nice but the Ta 400 was built from a requirement from January 1942, besides a general discussion of German strategic bombers is not really relevant to this thread, as the purpose of this thread is to first and foremost talk about the design influences of the Ta 400, its technical details, and how it compares to its contemporaries.

The Me 264 had a substantial advantage in development time from the beginning.
4-engine derivations of the He 177 were bound to be available quickly if pursued.

All correct, but just a slight nitpick, the He 177B was bound to be produced quickly, the He 277 a little later.

Fuel supply was known to be unsatisfactory by 1943. Only fuel efficient (short range) bombers made much sense.
A shortage of aircraft mechanics plagued the Luftwaffe in 1943 to the point that only the most efficient aircraft designs made sense.

All nice but not relevant to the Ta 400 specifically.

B-17 bombers were slaughtered without escorts over Germany in 1943, and the Ta 400's suitability against contemporary fighters (~1946/47) would have been abysmal.

All bombers are dead meat without escorts.

Finally, something you did not mention in your timeline: The Ta 400 was an active program not only in 1943, but in 1944 as well.

RLM cancelled in October of '43, after that it was a private venture by Tank.

The only thing that points against this being a project to keep development departments busy was the involvement of French engineers who wouldn't have been drafted anyway.

Or the fact that the design was submitted before Kursk and Fw engineers had enough work to guarantee their job security with the Fw 190, Ta 152, and Ta 183.

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

TO covered here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,656.msg4983.html#msg4983

 

[blackkite]

Hi Ta400 with stepped windshield cockpit.

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/f/FockeWulf/Focke-Wulf%20Ta%20400/Focke%20Wulf%20Ta%20400%20Projekt.pdf

 

[blackkite]

And original 3-side view.
Non step windshield cockpit was the final configulation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1kzsxIRCME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO54tAL7RGo

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Wiki says that
"In response to the RLM guidelines of 22 January 1942, Kurt Tank of the Focke-Wulf company designed the Ta 400 as a bomber and long-range reconnaissance aircraft to be powered by six BMW 801D radial engines, to which two Jumo 004 jet engines were later added.The Ta 400 with DB 603 engines was estimated to have a range of 12,000 km (7,500 mi) in the reconnaissance role, cruising at 325 km/h (202 mph).
General characteristics
Crew: 9
Length: 28.7 m (94 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 45.8 m (150 ft 3 in)
Gross weight: 60,000 kg (132,277 lb)
Powerplant: 6 × BMW 801D 14-cyl. air-cooled twin-row radial piston engines, 1,300 kW (1,700 hp) each
Powerplant: 2 × Junkers Jumo 004 turbojet engines, 8.8 kN (2,000 lbf) thrust each
Performance
Maximum speed: 720 km/h (447 mph; 389 kn)
Range: 9,000 km (5,592 mi; 4,860 nmi)
Armament
Guns: 10 × MG 151/20 in three twin turrets, Four mounted in tail turret. 2 × MG 131/20 in two remote-controlled turrets under the nose.
Bombs: 10,000 kg (22,000 lb) at 5,589 miles. 24,040 kg (53,000 lb) max.
"

Top and middle pictures shows Ta400 with two Junkers Jumo004 turbojet engines.
Bottom picture is also Ta400? This aircraft had six Jumo222 engine(without Jomo004 jet engine).

 

[Dan Sharp]

Hi! Wiki says that
"In response to the RLM guidelines of 22 January 1942, Kurt Tank of the Focke-Wulf company designed the Ta 400 as a bomber and long-range reconnaissance aircraft to be powered by six BMW 801D radial engines, to which two Jumo 004 jet engines were later added.The Ta 400 with DB 603 engines was estimated to have a range of 12,000 km (7,500 mi) in the reconnaissance role, cruising at 325 km/h (202 mph).
General characteristics
Crew: 9
Length: 28.7 m (94 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 45.8 m (150 ft 3 in)
Gross weight: 60,000 kg (132,277 lb)
Powerplant: 6 × BMW 801D 14-cyl. air-cooled twin-row radial piston engines, 1,300 kW (1,700 hp) each
Powerplant: 2 × Junkers Jumo 004 turbojet engines, 8.8 kN (2,000 lbf) thrust each
Performance
Maximum speed: 720 km/h (447 mph; 389 kn)
Range: 9,000 km (5,592 mi; 4,860 nmi)
Armament
Guns: 10 × MG 151/20 in three twin turrets, Four mounted in tail turret. 2 × MG 131/20 in two remote-controlled turrets under the nose.
Bombs: 10,000 kg (22,000 lb) at 5,589 miles. 24,040 kg (53,000 lb) max.
"

Top and middle pictures shows Ta400 with two Junkers Jumo004 turbojet engines.
Bottom picture is also Ta400? This aircraft had six Jumo222 engine(without Jomo004 jet engine).

Ha, yes. Although almost everything in that Wiki entry is wrong. The Ta 400 started out in November 1942 as a revival of the Fw 300 project (which had been a proposed 4-engine transport) called the Fw 300A. And it was mostly designed by the French…

 

[hesham]

Nice drawings my dear Dan.

 

[blackkite]

Oh amazing original drawing. FW.300A.
Thanks a lot.

 

[Dan Sharp]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Focke-Wulf Fernkampfflugzeug of drawing 0310 224-31, dated March 6, 1943 (detail):

 

[Dan Sharp]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Focke-Wulf Fernkampfflugzeug of drawing 0310 224-31, dated March 6, 1943 (detail):

 

[richard]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Thank you !

The civil Fw 300 is well known . I believe , there was a military Fw 300 too , with a glased nose . Am I right ?

 

[Dan Sharp]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Thank you !

The civil Fw 300 is well known . I believe , there was a military Fw 300 too , with a glased nose . Am I right ?

Not that I've ever seen but contemporary accounts suggest that Focke-Wulf did intend to offer a bomber version of the Fw 300.

 

[Wurger]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Great stuff!! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Wurger]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

The Focke-Wulf Fernkampfflugzeug, drawing 0310 224-31 is similar to a 0310225-20, but with conventional fuselage and six engines?

 

[Dan Sharp]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

There is a resemblance, certainly. But also many detail differences. And yes, from the other drawings in the set the Fernkampfflugzeug of 0310 224-31 is plainly what later received the official designation Fw 300A/Ta 400 (it seems at least plausible that the Fw 300A name was only used by the French designers working on the aircraft, whether they were actually in France or were among the group transferred to work in Germany. They seem to have often been given odd names and designations to work on German aircraft under, presumably for reasons of secrecy, although one contemporary account suggests that the Fw 300A was actually being worked on in France as a long-range civilian transport version of the Ta 400 away from the prying eyes of the RLM. "The work was kept secret from the RLM as far as possible," is the exact quote from report ADI.K 603/44) - with 6 x engines and a conventional fuselage. I'd love to know more about the twin boom aircraft depicted in the 0310 225-XX sequence but in the drawings I have the info panel is all but illegible.

 

[hesham]

Re: Focke-Wulf Ta 400

Nice drawing my dear Dan.