French Aircraft Carrier Never-Were Designs and Proposals

[archipeppe]

The CVN-21 Gerald Ford is making school.....

 

[helmutkohl]

some more from the same link

i guess that is Dassaults FCAS in the back, and Rafales in the front
with E2 hawkeye on the catapult.

 

[Hood]

We already have an extensive thread on PA NG here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/pa-ng-next-gen-french-aircraft-carrier-program.30950/page-6

 

[helmutkohl]

We already have an extensive thread on PA NG here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/pa-ng-next-gen-french-aircraft-carrier-program.30950/page-6

thanks. ill ask a mod to delete my post then

 

[BlackBat242]

I have these images...

That is something I worked up from the original PH-75, and is in no way anything other than a figment of my imagination created for an alternate-history exercise.

 

[BlackBat242]

Here is a clearer version of the PA-28 entry in Conway:

 

[MrMemerMan]

This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU (FRANCE) Le porte-avions Clemenceau à la mer. La présence de Crotale indique que la photo est postérieure à octobre 1986 AVANT P

forummarine.forumactif.com

Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

Can someone translate what PA 25 says.

 

[Fr05ty]

This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU (FRANCE) Le porte-avions Clemenceau à la mer. La présence de Crotale indique que la photo est postérieure à octobre 1986 AVANT P

forummarine.forumactif.com

Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

Can someone translate what PA 25 says.

"Project PA25 (variant C during the Occupation).
The armament comprised 8 100mm AA, 16 40mm and 20 20mm. After the Liberation, a variant D, of a slightly different silhouette, was provided with 8 100mm AA, 8 quadruple 40mm mounts (including one in the extreme front), and 4 20mm." I'm not sure if for the Variant D, it means 4 quadruple 20mm or 4 20mm in total.

 

[MrMemerMan]

This French forum has the best info on design histories, not just for Clemenceau/Focus but also many other pre- and post-war naval designs. I think some of the info is from the Jean Moulin book referenced in the 1st link you posted in the OP.

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU

PORTE-AVIONS CLASSE CLEMENCEAU (FRANCE) Le porte-avions Clemenceau à la mer. La présence de Crotale indique que la photo est postérieure à octobre 1986 AVANT P

forummarine.forumactif.com

Still not a lot of detail, except for this pic of PA-25 from the book.

Can someone translate what PA 25 says.

"Project PA25 (variant C during the Occupation).
The armament comprised 8 100mm AA, 16 40mm and 20 20mm. After the Liberation, a variant D, of a slightly different silhouette, was provided with 8 100mm AA, 8 quadruple 40mm mounts (including one in the extreme front), and 4 20mm." I'm not sure if for the Variant D, it means 4 quadruple 20mm or 4 20mm in total.

Thank you.

 

[MrMemerMan]

Is there any information about PA-21? Unless there isn't info on that I simply didn't see, or if it is a mystery design, or it got skipped over.

 

[gollevainen]

Acording to Tous Les Porte-Aeronefs En France de 1912 À Nos jours PA-21 was planned hybrid carrier-battleship based on Richelieu, displacement 42 270t, 242m(PP) x 33m x 9.1m, 150 000shp, 31 ktns. It had two hangars, one quadruple 380mm turret, 16 100mm, 16 37mm and 20 25mm AA guns. No mention of aircraft complement. There is a crude linedrawing, which I believe has been posted here already

 

[Antonio]

Normandie océan liner conversion proposal into aircraft carrier

The Normandie That Failed (1942)

JF Ptak Science Books Post 2905 Breezing through a volume of Popular Mechanic for 1942 I came across an article on refitting the French ocean liner, the Normandie. The only thing I knew about her was that the ship was...

longstreet.typepad.com

 

[F.L.]

I discovered this project (which I think is real) to convert the Comandant Teste hydroplane carrier into a light aircraft carrier just after the Second World War.
The Dixmude carrier wiki page states :

The transformation of the seaplane transport Commandant Teste into an escort aircraft carrier was mentioned in October 1945, only to be abandoned the following February.

 

[Archibald]

Cdt Teste had been a victim of 11/1942 scuttling. Three years at the bottom of Toulon harbor did no good. Still, it was salvaged - but only as a floating logistics depot. In that role however it lasted until the early 60's - just like Bearn, now a floating barracks. Both saw Foch and Clems IOC at Toulon harbor !

 

[Archibald]

Well it was actually worse ! Cdt Teste was scuttled, refloated by the italians , sunk by the Allies, and refloated again in 46' by the french. Talk about a jinxed ship ! It was also at MEK in 07/ 1940 but was unscathed. It didn't lasted !

 

[Archibald]

I checked. Cdt Teste was moored at Toulon Harbor as a floating logistics store until 1963. Bearn was there too, used as a divers school training barracks until 1967.
Dixmude, Lafayette and Bois Belleau were all decommissionned in 1960-63.
Arromanches remained in service until 1974.
Foch and Clem IOCs were in the 1960-64 era.
So - all french carriers (minus CdG, d'oh) hanged around Toulon harbor circa 1963. A pity we have so few pictures. For a brief time it was a like a museum of French carriers... !

 

[BlackBat242]

First - Toulon 1956 (caption lists ships):




Arromanches in Toulon with Clemenceau and LaFayette between Nov 1961 & March 1963:




Toulon 1966:

 

[F.L.]

Thank you @BlackBat242 !!!!

 

[Archibald]

The Bearn near the end...

 

[BlackBat242]

Likely during her diver school barracks phase:

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

I found this link about french aircraft carriers post-Second World War end and have little mentions about projects and convertions.

https://lefauteuildecolbert.blogspot.com/2013/08/les-six-porte-avions-de-letude-du-20.html

 

[YourChair]

I just stumbled upon an old reddit post (in Italian) by @Phoenix_jz that summarizes John Jordan's evaluations of the Joffre from his Warship 2010 article. That post has a mention of PA16A:

"Per prima cosa, il ritmo delle operazioni aeree in tempo di guerra fu gravemente sottostimato e la portaerei aveva una capacità di carburante per l'aviazione insufficiente - 270.000 litri.
...
Come tale, in un progetto riveduto datato gennaio 1945 (PA16A), tenendo conto dell'esperienza in tempo di guerra, il carburante per l'aviazione fu quasi raddoppiato a poco meno di 510.000 litri."

Which apparently translates to

First, the wartime [rate of fuel usage by the airgroup] was seriously underestimated, and the carrier had insufficient aviation fuel capacity - 270,000 litres.
...
As such, in a revised design dated January 1945 (PA16A), taking into account wartime experience, aviation fuel was almost doubled to just under 510,000 litres.

And above, Akaloso quotes Beerbaum's book:

PA16A/PA16B

Dimensions: length: 236m

Displacement: 20.000tons (standard)

Speed: 30 knots

Number of aircrafts: 40

First Project after the end of WWII based on the Joffre design.

Does anyone have further info on these improved PA16 designs?

That PA-25 surely had British heavy AA as no other country used the 4,5" / 114mm calibre.

I have learned recently that apparently during the years of the occupation, the Vichy government planned to use a gun of either 114 or 115mm caliber. This weapon was found on these aforementioned carriers, and on some of their large fleet escort ships (which are briefly mentioned by Jordan). Details are lacking, and Gollevainen, the artist for this drawing, is afraid someone will steal his sources if he shares them before his project is done. Perhaps we might get a bit more info from there later.

 

[gollevainen]

I have stuff regarding these carrier projects as well, I will reveal and share all I got, no worries but unfortunetly you have to wait abit. I’m currently occupied by out third child and our process to move to a bigger house so sparetime is very limited. I expect to be available for this sometime early next year. I have some info on various destroyer projects from vichy and post 1944 era as well which I try to publish sooner

Golly

 

[Archibald]

I have stuff regarding these carrier projects as well, I will reveal and share all I got, no worries but unfortunetly you have to wait abit. I’m currently occupied by out third child and our process to move to a bigger house so sparetime is very limited. I expect to be available for this sometime early next year. I have some info on various destroyer projects from vichy and post 1944 era as well which I try to publish sooner

Golly

Congratulation for the expanding family and the new house !

 

[GK Dundas]

I have always had a bit of a weakness for the PA 2 . That the French exhibited well over a decade ago .
It features in a couple of what- if concepts I've considered.

 

[GK Dundas]

That is something I worked up from the original PH-75, and is in no way anything other than a figment of my imagination created for an alternate-history exercise.

I've always liked it .
It fitted a niche role but it fit it very well.

 

[NeverWasNeverWillBe]

Here are some photos of Joffre under construction

French Aircraft Carrier Joffre - Destination's Journey

Joffre was laid down on 18 Nov 1938 but the start of World War II led to a slow down in construction and cessation in June 1940

www.destinationsjourney.com

 

[goofygoober20000]

Does anybody has some information on PA 21 or better pictures?

 

[JJMM]

No pictures available for PA21 project which was a super Joffre PA16 hybrid like what if ? Jean Bart...

 

[Archdude]

No pictures available for PA21 project which was a super Joffre PA16 hybrid like what if ? Jean Bart...

Cool!

 

[JJMM]

The aircraft carriers Béarn and Dixmude have changed little during their life, no redesign project, however the Commandant Teste had been studied as an aircraft carrier, then as a missile and helicopter test vessel.
The last 2 are free studies of aviation tenders or submarines, all these projects have never been engaged...

 

[JJMM]

The PA-28 Clemenceau aircraft carrier project here, with aircraft that would not have been satisfactory, but which were being evaluated.
We would have had US aircraft instead, which was the case during the Indochina's conflict...

 

[Archibald]

Sweet. The piston-engine naval planes did not went anywhere. And then it got worse. French atempts at building naval combat jets were a disaster. Four planes build: two VG-90, one NC-1080, one Nord 2200. The results: three crashes, three pilots dead (Decroo, Dellys, and Gallay): two VG-90 and the NC-1080 down in the ground, smoldering craters.

Only the Nord 2200 didn't killed his pilot (mercifully), but it didn't mean it was a good airplane: it was morbidly overweight, and its Nene couldn't face the obesity.
...
By this metric, the SNCASE Aquilon was a bargain. Thanks the British to have created the De Havilland Sea Venom. 113 procured but (the ultimate joke) they could not be safely flown out of La Fayette (30 kt, but 170 m long deck and weak catapults) nor Arromanches (210 m long deck, but too slow: 24 kt). It took until 1960 and Clemenceau for the Aéronavale to fly jets.

 

[Thorvic]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/French-Air...10-a7cd-d8b5725e4a6b&pd_rd_i=1036124533&psc=1

This could be interesting

 

[M. A. Rozon]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/French-Air...10-a7cd-d8b5725e4a6b&pd_rd_i=1036124533&psc=1

This could be interestingView attachment 765361

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, Matey! I have many of John Jordan's books on the French Navy. Thanks for the heads up. This is on my list!

 

[Archibald]

Jean Moulin is the top specialist of french carriers history, the absolute reference writer.

 

[gral_rj]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/French-Air...10-a7cd-d8b5725e4a6b&pd_rd_i=1036124533&psc=1

This could be interestingView attachment 765361

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[BlackBat242]

...
By this metric, the SNCASE Aquilon was a bargain. Thanks the British to have created the De Havilland Sea Venom. 113 procured but (the ultimate joke) they could not be safely flown out of La Fayette (30 kt, but 170 m long deck and weak catapults) nor Arromanches (210 m long deck, but too slow: 24 kt). It took until 1960 and Clemenceau for the Aéronavale to fly jets.

Missed this earlier.

Arromanches was no shorter or slower than HMAS Melbourne - and Melbourne operated Sea Venoms for many years.

The difference was that Arromanches had a single hydraulic catapult (that was either disabled or kept active* during the same 1957-58 refit that gave her her 4° angled flight deck), while Melbourne was completed in 1955 with a steam catapult and 5 1/2° angled flight deck (like all the modified Majestic class carriers got), which launched aircraft to a higher end-speed and could launch heavier aircraft.

The Dutch modernized two Colossus-class carriers (HMNLS Karel Doorman ex-Venerable later 25 de Mayo and Minas Gerais ex-Vengeance) with angled flight decks (8° KD & 8 1/2° MG), longer and more-powerful steam catapults than Melbourne's (replacing their hydraulic catapult) - and, like Arromanches, these two carriers also had years of service (1944-55 for KD and 1945-55 for MG) before being modernized (1955-58 for KD & 1957-60 for MG).

France could have done the same with Arromanches and gotten a useful secondary fleet carrier for the 1960s & 1970s to supplement Clemenceau & Foch, that would still be useful for the training/ASW carrier role she historically held post-mod. Or if the French couldn't spare the drydock for the work, just have the Dutch do the work.



* I have seen several sources that claim Arromanches' catapult was removed in the 1957-58 refit, but photos of her afterwards still show the catapult track in the flight deck - either the sources were completely wrong and the catapult was still usable or the catapult was disabled (with perhaps only the below-deck portion removed) rather than completely removed.

Either way, the French could have spent a bit more time and money and gotten much better service from her for the second half of her life.

 

[JJMM]

In the book dedicated to the aircraft carrier Arromanches, there is no mention of removing the catapult. A classmate of mine who was on board from 1966 to 1967 was assigned to this hydro-pneumatic catapult, so we can safely say that it served until its completion in 1972.
Two posters of projects considered for a second aircraft carrier from 2003, one from the DCNS shipyard (codenamed Juliette or Rxx), the other Franco-British CVF FR (Carrier Vessel Future France) before its abandonment in 2012.
The supposed name could have been Richelieu, which was planned for the PAN before being renamed Charles de Gaulle.
Another poster is a free study for a 70,000-ton, 275-meter-long nuclear aircraft carrier; I had proposed it, like Colbert.
Finally, after all the projects presented above, France built only four aircraft carriers, Béarn being originally a battleship; the following poster shows all the aircraft carriers in service or formerly.
Drawings (c) JJMM

 

[gollevainen]

Here are couple additional reference images on french carrier projects.

There is the PA16A which was post-war plan to complete Joffre (PA 16) with some improvements, The bulky 130mm DP turrets have been replaced with the 130mm pseudo-turrets that would would be fitted in the late war destroyer designs and which eventually envolved into the 127mm gun mount in De Grasse, Colbert and T47 class. The light AA armament is US quad 40mm bofors mount.

The second design is PA 27 of which several variants existed with either or without armoured flight decks. Its clearly shows the linage from the Joffre design with its off-sited flight deck. Lenght of the versions varied from 224m to 234m pp and displacement for the A model was given 26,130tW. 54 aircrafts were to be carried.

Third one is the rather well known PA 28 which preceded the PAX (PA 54) project, that is the Clemenceau class ofcrouse.

The fourth is PA 25, a light carrier design from the war era which would have 14 600t displacement, 200m lenght and carry 31 aircrafts.