This is really stupid (not you Hood: rather the logic you describe).Hood said:The bulk of the airgroups of these carriers will be helicopters. Up to 15 Merlins alongside the F-35s in the normal airgroup and in the amphibious role a mix JHC Chinooks, Merlins, Wildcats and Apaches.
For the sake of dozen or so F-35s the cost probably isn't worth it given the V/STOL capability. It's hard to imagine future naval AEW and ASW platforms not being helicopters or tilt-rotors.
I agree in general. The QE carriers are too big for what they may be being asked to provide. At 65,000 t, they could support the F-35C comfortably using catapults. But more than this, a CATOBAR ship allows more flexibility. If wanting to save a bit of cash, then F/A-18E/F's are a reasonable alternative. It also means the use of E-2D providing more capabilities than a Merlin based AEW.For STOVL operations, everything is dictated by the STOVL capabilities of the fast jet.Archibald said:This is really stupid (not you Hood: rather the logic you describe).Hood said:The bulk of the airgroups of these carriers will be helicopters. Up to 15 Merlins alongside the F-35s in the normal airgroup and in the amphibious role a mix JHC Chinooks, Merlins, Wildcats and Apaches.
For the sake of dozen or so F-35s the cost probably isn't worth it given the V/STOL capability. It's hard to imagine future naval AEW and ASW platforms not being helicopters or tilt-rotors.
This is the size of a Forrestal, yet the RN will use it as a glorified Iwo Jima LPH ! See also Moskva, HMS Ocean. It is not even an amphibious ship !
For the cost of such monstrosity the RN could have bought
a) a true Forrestal-size super carrier, CATOBAR
or
b) a pair of 30 000 tons Juan Carlos amphibious ships
or
c) a trio of 15 000 tons Invincible class Harrier carriers
or
d) a trio of HMS Ocean helicopter carriers, derived from the Invincible class
Nobody is building non-amphibious helicopter carriers anymore (such as Moskva or Iwo Jima, at least HMS Ocean was derived from the Invincibles). Except the RN. This is silly !
I think the RN should have decided early on for the V/STOL F-35, then designed a ship to carry 15 or 20 of them, what minimal size and tonnage do you need for such airgroup ?
Let's take the 43 000 tons Charles de Gaulle as a comparison. It can carry 28 to 40 aircrafts, all of them as big as a VSTOL F-35. Now shrunk this to 20-25 aircrafts, remove the CATOBAR gear, and the nuclear reactor, and such a ship should be no bigger than a Clemenceau, that is, 33000 tons. So no need for twice the tonnage !
what's the point of such a big ship ? The RN would have been better served with a 25 000 / 30 000 tons enlarged Invincible class, big enough to carry 20 VSTOL F-35.
Invincible did a pretty good job in the Falklands with a DOZEN of subsonic + AIM-9 + non-stealth Sea Harriers. The F-35 is a huge leap in performance, add some more (12 to 20) and there you go, a good enough aircraft carrier.
Archibald said:Can't help but thinking that huge fan door makes for one hell of an aerobrake - which is a little annoying for ski-jump lift-off, where the goal is to accelerate as fast as possible (per lack of catapult).
Just sayin'
Night trials already? That is a bit quick, since they have only just started landing on the QE aircraft carrier.Harrier said:Night trials.
Reminded me of the original 1986 Skunk Works/DARPA concept. Meant to be 'cool'...
Merlin MK4, the grey ones are the fully navalised versions and the only ones deployed on QNLZ, the MK3 are still NATO green and are used for Training whilst awaiting their turn to upgrade. I think one is currently used on QNLZ as plane guard and COD whilst the other two are deployed ashore with the Royal Marines training with the USMC.SteveO said:Nice video of the RV landing. Looks like a MK3 or 4 Merlin at the end of the video acting as plane guard.
I wish I could believe that.FighterJock said:Nice find fredymac, now the Queen Elizabeth is now a proper Warship since they have handled ordnance. B)
The Royal Navy's new aircraft carrier, HMS Queen Elizabeth, will be made available to NATO under the alliance's Readiness Initiative when it becomes operational in 2021, outgoing prime minister Theresa May announced on 4 June. "NATO will soon be able to call on the UK's Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers and F-35 fighter jets to help tackle threats around the world," she said.
This was preceded on 3 June by a British Army announcement on its website that one of its WAH-64 Apache AH1 attack helicopters landed on HMS Queen Elizabeth on 3 June.
The landing of the helicopter, from 656 Squadron Army Air Corps, kicked off three days of platform ship integration testing (PSIT) and evaluation under the UK's Joint Helicopter Command. This will assess the compatibility of the attack helicopter with Queen Elizabeth 's operating systems, including moving it on the flight deck and hangars, maintenance and arming, and using the aircraft lifts.
Sorry but that’s a bit of an absurd comment.It is worth remembering that when the Labour Government (yes a LABOUR Government) ordered these ships, it was in the context of wars of "intervention", the Balkans, Sierra Leone, Iraq and Afghanistan. Essentially what we needed for this was two or three WASP LHDs but as ever supporting British Industry of various kinds was the main driver for the programme.
In the absence of Nuclear power (and the Charles De Gaulle showed the risks of doing this on the cheap) a ship powered by gas turbines and electric drive was going to have to dispense with catapults (CVA01 would have been steam boilered in a largely gas turbine fleet).
I tend to accept the view (HM Treasury) that aircraft carriers in a worthwhile form are just too expensive to operate and that the money is better spent elsewhere. But as ever the RN has had to make the best of a bad job. The good news is that the ships are big enough to take all sorts of future modifications (even catapults if electric powered ones come good). The bad news is that they have sucked money from the escort ship and SSN programmes which are arguably of far more use to us and NATO.