North Korea indigenous aircraft

Hood said:
Su 25s without wingtip pods wouldn't have any airbrakes.... doesn't seem like a serviceable bunch of aircraft to me.
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Yes if you jump to conclusions without considering possibility of modified Su-25 or domestic clone with one or more improvement.
sahureka said:
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Maybe.

If it's joint work with Iran and rumored rework Qaher-313 was to be unveiled by Iranians in near future.
 
SU-25: rather than improvements (which may be at the level of on-board instrumentation updates), I would hypothesize adaptations of the project to their needs (for example engine to which they have access) also including simplifications in production (modification of the wings and at the same time moving the airbrakes in another part of the aircraft). Therefore this hypothetical aircraft would be a different aircraft with only a few similarities. Returning to the unidentified aircraft and the issue of cooperation with Iran, this was my first suspicion. They have been collaborating in various areas of defense for years and often one would present weapons and systems that the other had previously in production. Example Iran produces a clone of the Oto Melara 76/62 Compact, called Fajr-27 later a similar system appears on DPRK ships. In turn, the DPRK created a 30mm gatling-type CIWS, later Iran installs a similar system on its ships, albeit with a stealth turret. By this I don't mean that one produces and delivers the plants directly to the other, but probably they exchange knowledge to make them at home. The same thing could happen in the aeronautical sector, both countries have an aeronautical program, including the creation of turbojet engines of various power and with different origin ancestors (USSR-USA) with Iran already having a small turbofan in production and in the commercial sector he decoded the CFM-56; the only difference is that Iran advertises and shows the world every success, while North Korea maintains strict secrecy. So a collaboration and/or an exchange of knowledge is possible, but if something is done in the future, I have a feeling that the external shape of the aircraft will be different.,
 
Range of both Hwasal-1 and Hwasal-2 indicates that North Korea is producing miniature turbofan jet engines which they stated they do thus not out of realm of possibility that they may develope or are developing larger turbofan engines for suspected new aircraft design.
 
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It looks like a big L-39.
NK-2.png
Or to this :
vzcOpBN.jpeg To me, the strange Su-25s look more like rough models.
 
So i'm not the only one noticing that fourth Su-25 looks different, or rather the other ones look different. Unless there is some kind of visual effect and unless one or the others are some kind of decoys, wingtip pods or no the wing sweep angle of the other Su-25s look different? Though i don't see why DPRK would find fit to invest in a potential Su-25 copy, which has a low combat value in DPRKs situation (ie, it's only a ground attack arcraft, not a fighter)

As to the unkown aircraft, of course all is very tantalizing. If Sahureka's sketch is broadly accurate, and IF it's a real aircraft and not a decoy, either UCAV or manned seems to be a LO paltform (the wingtip and stabilizers or V-tail angles match well). At least as far as us aviation buffs are concerned, compared to these grainy images, i'm sure there must be much sharper satellite images taken by the americans and/or their affiliates.

Regarding DPRK-Iran coperation, i sure hope DPRK won't touch that Qaher thing with a barge pole, it's just a scam and a pitiful one at that. Anyway the DPRK aircraft looks nothing like that Qaher, the only remotely similar iranian platform i could find is this below, shown back in 2010.

 

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Satellite imagery is limited to 30cm resolution per pixel which is rather bad considering that 1970s satellites using photographic films have resolution lower than 10cm compared to even most advanced satellites with digital cameras when it comes to discernable details between two along issue of image compression.

Su-25 can use laser guided munitions thus can be used in precision strike role.
Producing domestic clone makes sense to target mobile assets of opposing force.

Your opinion on Qaher is irrelevant and uninformed.
 
BullpupRafale said:
Range of both Hwasal-1 and Hwasal-2 indicates that North Korea is producing miniature turbofan jet engines which they stated they do thus not out of realm of possibility that they may develope or are developing larger turbofan engines for suspected new aircraft design.
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Well, since they build some of the most advanced ICBMs and their engines, materials, electronics, nuclear warheads etc, if they really put their minds to build a turbofan they likely will sooner or later. They do have access to some fairly modern military and civilian turbofans, such as RD-33 and D-436, PS-90 plus whatever data and/or hardware they could get through espionage, plus whatever they could get from friendly countries such as Russia, China and Iran, perhaps they got acces to the RQ-170 and RQ-4 engines captured by Iran? Hell, how about access to Venezuela's F-16s, avionics, missiles (Python-4) and F-100 engine for DPRK and Iran? There are many fascinating possibilities.
 
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BullpupRafale said:
Commercial satellite imagery has limit of 30cm.
That is a lot and can impact highly on look of objects.
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That hasn't stopped you from speculating about the image showing a DPRK-built twin-engine aircraft. Do you have access to other images?
 
F.L. said:
It looks like a big L-39.
View attachment 699226
Or to this :
View attachment 699227To me, the strange Su-25s look more like rough models.
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certainly also a model in wood and plywood is possible, usable for use and consumption to confuse the observer from space, fulfilling several purposes: to raise doubts - true, false, who knows, but what if it's true?
and thus raises further questions: who helped them, homemade, in collaboration, which engine etc.

Then they park it alongside other aircraft, some of which appear to have structural differences from the SU-25 and so more doubts and hypotheses;

What is certain is that the North Koreans, thus placing them in plain sight, have achieved their first aim, which is to confuse their opponents.

Doubting on our part is legitimate, but underestimating the abilities of others is a serious mistake.
It is not the first time that Kim Jong Un surprises the whole world with something we thought impossible for them in a short time (intercontinental missiles, miniaturization of nuclear warheads, anti-aircraft defense systems, large surface effect naval units, SLBMs, cruise missiles, etc.
 
lancer21 said:
BullpupRafale said:
Range of both Hwasal-1 and Hwasal-2 indicates that North Korea is producing miniature turbofan jet engines which they stated they do thus not out of realm of possibility that they may develope or are developing larger turbofan engines for suspected new aircraft design.
Click to expand...
Well, since they build some of the most advanced ICBMs and their engines, materials, electronics, nuclear warheads etc, if they really put their minds to build a turbofan they likely will sooner or later. They do have access to some fairly modern military and civilian turbofans, such as RD-33 and D-436, PS-90 plus whatever data and/or hardware they could get through espionage, plus whatever they could get from friendly countries such as Russia, China and Iran, perhaps they got acces to the RQ-170 and RQ-4 engines captured by Iran? Hell, how acces to Venezuela's F-16s, avionics, missiles (Python-4) and F-100 engine for DPRK and Iran? There are many fascinating possibilities.
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China and Russia would not share anything militarily critical technologies with North Korea as evident they do not with Iran that could pay a lot for such to gain access and save up on research and development time and money while North Korea and Iran have joint research and development agreement in civilian and military realm.

Iranian space launch vehicles were previously solely clones of North Korean designs.
Both sides share entire designs and crucial technologies and scientific information.

lancer21 said:
BullpupRafale said:
Your opinion on Qaher is irrelevant and uninformed.
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Well, have to agree to disagree on that Qaher thing, but it's not really the subject here.
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In no way your opinion on Qaher could be considered close to truth by anyone informed.
It is a scam to those that do not understand what research and development is.
It takes years and decades to develop a new aircraft and technologies for such.

Iran made advanced in last few years that can enable completion of Qaher-like project.

Arjen said:
BullpupRafale said:
Commercial satellite imagery has limit of 30cm.
That is a lot and can impact highly on look of objects.
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That hasn't stopped you from speculating about the image showing a DPRK-built twin-engine aircraft. Do you have access to other images?
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Your reply doesn't make sense to me.

You admit what I stated it as being speculation yet you reply like as if I stated it being fact.
When I did not and simply stated it is wide enough that two engines could fit inside.
 
BullpupRafale said:
Your reply doesn't make sense to me.
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I merely wanted to know if you had seen any other images that supported your speculation. The image's resolution being what it is, I would hesitate to classify the object as a decoy/real aircraft, or, if a real aircraft, manned/unmanned.
Never mind the number of engines.
 
F.L. said:
@BullpupRafale
Please don't start looking for a fight, please !!! It's always better to discuss things calmly. Besides the F-313 is not the subject of this thread ! Don't be aggressive, please !
It is better to say your opinion and not try to impose it on others.
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Do not accuse only me of doing that when someone else has also done it.
Qaher-313 project continues on in some form from is what is known.
Physical mockup was shown in 2013 and revised model in 2017.

Latter also had test on runway.

Anyone calling it fake is uninformed on circumstances of project at those times and now.

MAPNA hinted this month involving domestic production of CFM-56 turbofan parts.
Some what North Korea develops will have traces in Iran and other way around too.
We could see Iran and later North Korea produce F101 / F110 class jet engines.

That is bigger and more powerful than F404 that South Korea produces under license.
 
BullpupRafale said:
Qaher-313 project continues on in some form from is what is known.
Physical mockup was shown in 2013 and revised model in 2017.

Latter also had test on runway.

Anyone calling it fake is uninformed on circumstances of project at those times and now.

MAPNA hinted this month involving domestic production of CFM-56 turbofan parts.
Some what North Korea develops will have traces in Iran and other way around too.
We could see Iran and later North Korea produce F101 / F110 class jet engines.

That is bigger and more powerful than F404 that South Korea produces under license.
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I totally agree with you regarding the F-313. That's what I said on the dedicated thread.
And I think that an Iranian-North Korean cooperation is quite possible.
(But please, be courteous and do not provoke others.)
 
BullpupRafale said:
Satellite imagery is limited to 30cm resolution per pixel which is rather bad considering that 1970s satellites using photographic films have resolution lower than 10cm compared to even most advanced satellites with digital cameras when it comes to discernable details between two along issue of image compression.
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What satellite took this photo?
What resolution was it taken at?
Was the image orthorectified?
Was the image post processed or enhanced?
 
According to this site, the unidentified aircraft has a length of 13.8 meters and a wingspan of 10.4 meters.
 
It really does look different.
NK-2.png
Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23MF_3-view.svg.png
Or it has no nose and the wings are half cut.
 
BullpupRafale said:
F.L. said:
@BullpupRafale
Please don't start looking for a fight, please !!! It's always better to discuss things calmly. Besides the F-313 is not the subject of this thread ! Don't be aggressive, please !
It is better to say your opinion and not try to impose it on others.
Click to expand...
Do not accuse only me of doing that when someone else has also done it.
Qaher-313 project continues on in some form from is what is known.
Physical mockup was shown in 2013 and revised model in 2017.

Latter also had test on runway.

Anyone calling it fake is uninformed on circumstances of project at those times and now.

MAPNA hinted this month involving domestic production of CFM-56 turbofan parts.
Some what North Korea develops will have traces in Iran and other way around too.
We could see Iran and later North Korea produce F101 / F110 class jet engines.

That is bigger and more powerful than F404 that South Korea produces under license.
Click to expand...
There is a topic on the Qaher here. If you would like to expand on your views on it at some point, i am genuinely curious of your take on this whole Qaher project/ saga.
 
lancer21 said:
This seems to be the original source:
beyondparallel.csis.org

Aircraft Return to Sunchon Airbase? - Beyond Parallel

Recent satellite imagery shows that the ongoing modernization project at Sunchon Airbase is nearing completion, along with the presence of ten aircraft - the first observed in two years.
beyondparallel.csis.org beyondparallel.csis.org
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So, erm...

Ten aircraft present on the taxiway outside the northern entrance of the Sunchon Airbase’s underground facility (hanger), May 1, 2023. (Copyright © 2023 by Planet) Image may not be republished without permission. Please contact imagery@csis.org.
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I for one i'm curious if chinese netizens made a render of this DPRK mystery plane already, usually the chinese CGI artists do beautiful renders from even scant details.
 
BullpupRafale said:
We know they are capable of producing RD-9 turbojet engine, maybe since 1980s.
We know they have produced jet powered unmanned aerial vehicles since 2010s.
We know they produce miniature low bypass turbofan for land attack cruise missiles.
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Apparently the turbofan for cruise missiles make it.
In recent days Kim Jong Un has carried out inspections of armaments factories, in a photo that appeared on the net he paused in front of some elements and a sectioned engine of what appears to be an TRDD-50 turbofan for cruise missiles, explanatory images on bearing drawings of the wall and probably related data.
Therefore it seems plausible that North Korea makes a version of the TRDD-50
F27HBj4W0AAw1MY.jpg

in the article concerning the visits to the factories, concerning the engine they write
https://kcnawatch.org/newstream/169...-field-guidance-to-major-munitions-factories/
<<Kim Jong Un also went to the factory manufacturing the engines of strategic cruise missile and armed unmanned aerial vehicle, and set forth important tasks. Noting that the factory has taken lion's share that can not be carried out by other factories in technical refinement and serial production of the newly developed strategic weapons, he specified the ways for steadily increasing the performance and reliability of the engine, a key element in the composition of weapon system, and rapidly expanding its production capacity. He stressed the need to simultaneously and thoroughly ensure the speed and quality and quantity in the production of engines by giving definite precedence to the measures for supplying various kinds of materials necessary for manufacturing engines, adding that the factory should put the production processes on a modern, scientific and precise basis of a higher level and steadily improve the labor and production conditions and civilized living environment of the factory. He requested the officials, workers and technicians of the factory to mass-produce various kinds of cutting-edge strategic weapon engines with their own efforts and technology by giving fullest play to their creative wisdom and enthusiasm and thus make a great contribution to bringing about a revolution in developing new strategic weapons of our style.>>
 
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That was my suspicion since if i remember correctly that Kh-35 is powered by TRDD-50 low bypass two spool turbofan.
 
Here we go.
North Korean indigenous AEW&C.
www.nknews.org

North Korea converting cargo plane into military aircraft, imagery suggests | NK PRO

North Korea appears to be converting a large cargo plane into an airborne warning system for use during missile tests or to help detect enemy missiles in a crisis, newly released expert findings show. An Ilyushin Il-76 cargo plane has recently appeared next to a maintenance hangar at Pyongyang...
www.nknews.org www.nknews.org
 
Geo said:
Here we go.
North Korean indigenous AEW&C.
www.nknews.org

North Korea converting cargo plane into military aircraft, imagery suggests | NK PRO

North Korea appears to be converting a large cargo plane into an airborne warning system for use during missile tests or to help detect enemy missiles in a crisis, newly released expert findings show. An Ilyushin Il-76 cargo plane has recently appeared next to a maintenance hangar at Pyongyang...
www.nknews.org www.nknews.org
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Suspect it is just a local retrofit of Beriev A-50 AWACS system. Hardly qualifies as indigenous.
 
GTX said:
I didn't say it was an A-50. I said I suspect it is just a local retrofit of Beriev A-50 AWACS system
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And why would the North Koreans do a "retrofit" of the old Vega-M from the 1970s when they are capable of producing their own PESA radars?
 
Waterballoon said:
So you think they got an A-50 (from Russia)?
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Again, where did I say that?? I am essentially repeating (and agreeing with) what is mentioned in the article:

“Notably, the Russians apparently dismantled some of their missile telemetry aircraft recently, so it’s likely they have parts for them lying around,” he added, suggesting they would be available to North Korea
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