hesham

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Dear richard,

There are Messerschmitt P.1075 and P.1085:
 

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moin1900

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Hi everybody

I have read about the Messerschmitt Me-264 with STEAM-ENGINE!
Is there anybody who can tell me more about this for me very unknown Project!
What about the engine itself ? Is there any DATA ?
Thanks in advance for every post or picture about this Project!

Many greetings
 

lark

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A steam turbine Me-264 project is mentioned in:

"Die Deutschen Flugzeuge 1933-1945" by Kens & Nowarra-Lehmanns Verlag -Munchen 1972.

The plane should be powered by one 6000hp steamturbine driving 2 propellers
Turbine (0,62x1,83m) powered by4 boilers with 0,91x1,22m dimensions.
Fuel would be a mixture of 65% coaldust and 35% heavy oil....

Many other sources consulted produced no further info ,so....
 

moin1900

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To lark: Thanks for it especially for the data about the Engine
Now I have found this http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html
This source say that this Plane only used one propeller ?

How does the Plane look like with the Steam-Engine?
What about the fuselage and Wing design? (Because there were many Me-264 designs)
Where is the Engine placed? (Maybe in the middle of the fuselage?)

Thanks and many greetings
 

Johnbr

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You can get some great info on it in the Book Messerschmitt Me 264 by Robert Forsyth
 

GTX

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There is also some info on other aircraft steam turbine developments (including a short burst on the Me-264 one) in " Luftwaffe Secret Projects, Volume 3: Ground Attack & Special Purpose Aircraft Luftwaffe Secret Projects, Volume 3: Ground Attack & Special Purpose Aircraft" by Dieter Herwig.

Regards,

Greg
 

lark

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Indeed GTX.The Osermachinen GmbH steamturbine is mentioned
in a few other books also, but I still have no indication were it would be placed
in the plane and how it could drive the prop(s).

In the book you speaking about,a less powerfull turbine is discribed
for wing installation.
 

moin1900

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Thanks for information about that, everybody. But I still have no indication were it would be placed
in the plane and how it could drive the prop(s). That is a very mystery Project.
Is there a Picture from the Wing installition turbine?

Here about STEAM-AIRCRAFT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_aircraft
And here about the Me 264
http://www.histaviation.com/Messerschmitt_Me_264.html
Many greetings
 

Jemiba

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I think, we shouldn't expect a too unusual layout. It would have been powered
by a single engine, either engine and boilers were quite compact, but probably relatively
heavy and additionally needing some thermal isolation, so I would guess, that the
only suitable location would be near the cg, with the props driven by shafts.
Most other details more or less unchanged, as long as they aren't converned by the much
reduced usable fuselage volume.
Of course, source grading 1 only !
 

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richard

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I have found some info about Ritz engines ,from a book tittled German Engines or something like this ...Sorry ,I have only one page copied from the book . Is it what you are looking for ?
 

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moin1900

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To Jemiba : Thanks for the good impression of the Me-264 with Steam-Engine!
Now I can imagine how does it work !
To richard : Thanks for this little nice additional information !

But what about the bomb bay? (now there is the steam-engine)
And these huge props? (the plane is only 4,30m high, so what about the Undercarriage)
And there should be a version with only one huge prop, what about that?

Many greetings and thanks in advance
 

lark

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Interesting..
Can you mention the source Richard ?
 

richard

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Hello

As I said before , I have only a copy from a Library . The book tittle was something like "German engine developpement in WW II", but ,sorry I don't remember the right tittle ...
 

Jemiba

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"But what about the bomb bay? (now there is the steam-engine)...
...And these huge props? (the plane is only 4,30m high, so what about the Undercarriage)"

Good questions indeed and again no definite answer, just an assumption:
A prop diameter of 5,3m, as given on the tgplanes site, sems to be reasonable to me, as it
would give the a slightly greater prop disc area, as the four propos of 3,63m diameter each.
More ground clearance could be achieved either by moving the props further out on the wing,
or by higher on the wing. Additionally, the use of longer stroke oleos for the landing gear legs
should be possible, I think, and a combination of the abovementioned methods probably would
do the trick.
About the bomb-bay, I think, the boilers could have been fitted in the upper half of the fuselage
and the cut-away (from FlugRevue 8/1980) seems to show, that the bomb-bay only occupied the
lower part. Only suggestions, of course ... ???
 

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Hood

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Such a steam turbine (Junkers design) was estimated to be about 1,100mm long and 600-650mm wide or about half as short as the Jumo 213.

Professor Losel of the firm Osermaschinen GmbH (under instruction from Sonderkommando Nebel - Special Detachment Nebel) intially carried out the design and development of a steam turbine power unit which was to be rated at 6,000hp at 6,000rpm with a power to weight of 0.7 kg/hp and a consumption of 190 grams/hp/hour. An Me 264 airframe - possibly the V2 - was to have been placed at the disposal of the firm.

Two propellers were envisioned for testing; one at 5.3m diameter revolving at 400-500 rpm and the other at 1.98m diameter revolving at 6,000 rpm.

The system of the Osermaschinen turbine consisted of four capillary tube boilers, each one metre in diameter in 1.2m high; a boiler feed water pump and auxiliary turbine; a main turbine, 0.6m in diameter and 1.82m in length; a combustion and draught fan, condenser, controls and auxiliaries. The system lent itself to incorporation within an airframe, since it could be broken down into separate components. By the end of the war, apparantly, many of these components had been manufactured and were ready for use including one of the boilers, the turbine blades and auxiliaries, such as the combustion air draught fan and condenser pump. Work had also started on the auxiliary and main turbine.

The system was designed to use 65% solid fuel (pulverised coal) and 35% liquid fuel (petrol), but it was intended to use liquid fuel only when it became available in quantity.

Osermaschinen claimed that the advantages of steam turbine power were:
Constant power at varying heights
Capacity for 100 per cent overloading, even for long periods
Full steam power obtained within 5-10 seconds
Not sensitive to low temperatures
Long life and simple servicing requirements
Simple and quick control

Information taken from Messerschmitt Me 264 Amerika Bomber - The Luftwaffe's Lost Transatlantic Bomber.
 

Nick Sumner

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This is fascinating stuff! Thank you!

Hood - how would the steam engine have been fed if they were using coal? A stoker? :eek:
 

Jemiba

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Probably similar to several steam engines: Coal dust fed with an air stream.
But more interesting, I think, is the system with the fast revolving small diameter
props, as their tips would reach about double the speed of sound ! ???
 

Nick Sumner

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Jemiba said:
Probably similar to several steam engines: Coal dust fed with an air stream.
But more interesting, I think, is the system with the fast revolving small diameter
props, as their tips would reach about double the speed of sound ! ???

Wow! That tends to be aerodynamically problematic doesn't it?
 

Jemiba

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"Wow! That tends to be aerodynamically problematic doesn't it?

I think so, just hope, that it isn't a miscalculation by my own, but I think it should be:

(diameter x pi x revs/min) / 60 = tip speed per minute, or 622m/s ???

Can't think, that this system would have worked ...
 

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I'd hate to be in such an aircraft in case of battle damage. As the previous Heinkel experiments with surface evaporation cooling, any system which acted as a heat exchanger to recover the water would be very vulnerable to damage. When coupled with a mass of piping superheated, supercharged steam around the aircraft, it would be an accident waiting to happen. Instant boiled crew! :eek:
 

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The Germans had a distinct lack of regard for airmen. About 5% of the deaths in the Me 163 were due to combat. The remainder were operational and testing.
 

GTX

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Loren said:
The Germans had a distinct lack of regard for airmen. About 5% of the deaths in the Me 163 were due to combat. The remainder were operational and testing.

The Me-163 was a unique, desperate weapon - to use that as justification for saying the Germans had a distinct lack of regard for airmen is probably going a little far.

Regards,

Greg
 

Jemiba

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If you put in "some german organisations and even several parts of the airforce leadership",
you're probably right ... ;)
 

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Didn't mean to imply such a general statement.

The German leadership had a distinct lack of concern for lives of anybody else. The idea of using a steam engine for propulsion is akin to an aircraft like the Me 163 Komet.
 

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The book in question is "German Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Development 1930-1945" by Anthony L. Kay, and includes air, sea and land applications of all kinds of stuff, including the steam turbine in the Me264.
 

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about me 264 ,
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.aviation.military/2009-09/msg00858.html

That is all ! :)
 

airman

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the other projects developed by me-264 :Me 264 with four BMW 028 Turboprops ,Me 264/6m or Me 364 (unofficial designation) with six engines,
Four Jumo 004C turbojet powered version of the Me 264, with T-tail ,Messerschmitt Me P.1075 with four piston powered engines and two jet engines in the wing roots,Me P.1085 with four pusher engines and two jet engines in the wing roots ; there are not other information by Luft46 Site and Midland Books about Secret Projects of Luftwaffe !
Are there additional informations or were unfinished projects ? ???
Messerschmitt Me P.1075 and Me P.1085 (on Classic Publications - Me 264) speak about Db radial engines and two turbo-jet possibly Heinkel HeOs11
Well on appendix : Me-364 was powered by 6 BMW 801E , max range 15650 km and speed 612 km/h.
I don't if Me.P.1075 and Me.P.1085 performance are in appendix : i don't know germany language !
So miss totally variant with four Bmw 028 : there are others mentioned so in this forum ::)
The three original variants of Me-264 : with Db 603, Bmw 801 and Jumo 211 !
 

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Antonio

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Buy Luftwaffe Secret Projects Strategic Bombers 1935-1945. Midland and you'll get all plus full-rez drawings ;)
 

airman

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pometablava said:
Buy Luftwaffe Secret Projects Strategic Bombers 1935-1945. Midland and you'll get all plus full-rez drawings ;)
Just have it ! ::) :D
I have all tree books about Luftwaffe Secret Projects !
So returning on topic : I know there was an other Me-264 powered by four Bmw 109-028 turboprops, me 364 with six engines (i don't which), Project P.1085 and P.1075 was powered by four engines and two turbo jet in the wing roots ,there was last with four Jet-Engines , but no other informations ! :-\
 

Antonio

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mmm...then we have that volume:

http://www.amazon.com/Messerschmitt-264-Amerikabomber-Luftwaffes-Transatlantic/dp/1903223652
 

Antonio

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little more here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3862.0.html
 

airman

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pometablava said:
mmm...then we have that volume:

http://www.amazon.com/Messerschmitt-264-Amerikabomber-Luftwaffes-Transatlantic/dp/1903223652

yes, it's true : is all here !

:eek:
I have update on first page !

So i haven't found nothing about variant with four Bmw-028 ,so Db engines of project P.1075 and P.1085 could be Db 613 or Db 603
 

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Given that the development was undertaken on behalf of the Sonderkommando Nebel, the question arises wether it was actually intended for use as a bomber.
 

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