Kriegsmarine - KM Ship Plans/Discussion

RM 20/2443 "Technische Zeichnung vom Kreuzer P 15.4.1939 – Maschinenanlage und Panzeranordnung, 1:200" (Techincal plan of P-class cruiser engine and machinery layout).

RM 20/1913 "Allgemeine Typenfragen für Schlachtschiffe, Panzerschiffe und Kreuzer" (General plans of battleship, armored ship and cruiser), since comments on marinearchiv.de said KW45/50 draft is likely in here.

RM 20/1912 "Neubauplan" (ship plans for Bismarck, plan-Z, H-class battleship, Dutch battleship/battlecruiser design, Prinz Eugen and other small crafts).

Also i founded M-class minesweeper. View attachment RM_20_2442.jpg
 
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"Dutch battleship/battlecruiser design"

Beyond the 1047? Do tell more......

Dave G
 
alexi said:
RM 20/2443 "Technische Zeichnung vom Kreuzer P 15.4.1939 – Maschinenanlage und Panzeranordnung, 1:200" (Techincal plan of P-class cruiser engine and machinery layout).

RM 20/1913 "Allgemeine Typenfragen für Schlachtschiffe, Panzerschiffe und Kreuzer" (General plans of battleship, armored ship and cruiser), since comments on marinearchiv.de said KW45/50 draft is likely in here.

RM 20/1912 "Neubauplan" (ship plans for Bismarck, plan-Z, H-class battleship, Dutch battleship/battlecruiser design, Prinz Eugen and other small crafts).

Also i founded M-class minesweeper. View attachment 682441
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I'll be seeing if I can get my hands on these sometime.
 
Writing this for later.

RM/20 Marinekommandoamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine --> RM/20 Inventory --> 1.12 Fleet Department (AV) --> 1.12.1 Shipbuilding Issues --> RM/20 1913 "General type questions for battleships, ironclads and cruisers 10 Feb - 11 Dec 1939 Contains ao :Contains ao: Type P cruiser; battleships "Scharnhorst", "Gneisenau", "Bismarck", "H" and "O" Cruiser "M"; baggage ships; Conversion of armored ships"

RM/20 Marinekommandoamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine --> RM/20 Inventory --> 1.12 Fleet Department (AV) --> 1.12.1 Shipbuilding Issues --> RM/20 1912 "new construction planMarch 30, 1939 - July 4, 1940 Contains, among other things: Lecture on battleship "Bismarck"; Z plan; battleship building; draft Dutch battleship; Treatment of new ships in the case of mobilization; battleship "H"; manning levels; armored motor boats; trawler; cruiser "Prinz Eugen"; Construction plan for new warships; submarine construction"

RM/20 Marinekommandoamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine --> RM/20 Inventory --> 1.12 Fleet Department (AV) --> 1.12.1 Shipbuilding Issues --> RM/20 2443 "Technical Drawings Ironclad Type "P" (9) 1939 Contains, among other things: Fol. 1: Technical drawing of the cruiser P 15.4.1939 - machinery and armor arrangement, 1:200; Fol. 2: Panzer Arrangementb Kreuzer "P", 1:100, March 1939; Fol. 3: A technical drawing of the battleship "F.- hull and artillery, 1939 Fol. 4: A technical drawing of the machinery and armor arrangement, 1:20, 1939 (draft), fol. 52; Fol. 5: Battleship type "P" .- Proposal AV with H-motors.- Main frame, 1:100, 1939 (fol. 53) Fol. Folio 7: Ironclad Type "P" - Armored deck thickness, 1:100, 1939 (Fol. 75) Folio 8: Ironclad Type "P" - Cross-sections in the area of the SA ammunition chambers, 1: Fol. 9: Sketch of the cruiser type "P" (draft 2), 1:250, 25.3.1939 (fol. 125);Sketch of cruiser type "P" 2 attachments to AV 806/39 Kds. (fol. 151) is missing

Additional Things:
RM/20 Marinekommandoamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine --> RM/20 Inventory --> 1.12 Fleet Department (AV) --> 1.12.2 Artillery Weapons Issues --> RM/20 1909 "Artillery Weapons QuestionsApr 1939 - Jul 1940Contains among others :contains among others:secrecy;cruiser type P;Main information about the guns on board (as of Jan. 1, 1939);heavy anti-aircraft guns on light vehicles;Dete systems for onboard use;basic questions of anti-aircraft armament;flak allocation;Allocation Dete plants;Final assessment cruiser "Blücher"
 
Yes, its a lot, looking forward when you have them, apparently the files are so big that have they to split out (with most P-class drafts put into /2443).
 
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio/direktlink/e0fd75bc-5c21-4f53-9ff2-f4b708dddf9a/
!! RM 20/1912 AND RM/20 2443 HAVE BEEN DIGITIZED !!

This is due to principally to someone I know on Discord named Magiaconatus, who has also contacted and requested documents from the Bundesarchiv - though their ventures are regarding Scharnhorst (/1912), and just-so-happened to have picked up /2443 along the way, doing so ironically around the same time that we sit here discussing about wanting it.
 
High speed battlecruiser project KW45 and KW50 at page 304-314, curious what "KW30" could have been had the project not die first (maybe 4 turret O-class but slower?).

I also noticed there are some recently? digitalized plans, will keep looking.
 
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alexi said:
High speed battlecruiser project KW45 and KW50 at page 304-314, curious what "KW30" could have been had the project not die first (maybe 4 turret O-class but slower?).

I also noticed there are some recently? digitalized plans, will keep looking.
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Looking for KW-45 and KW-50 but can't find it. Can you provide a direct link?
 
From Wikipedia, but it goes to show what I mean:

"As part of the plan, design work on the P class was halted in mid-1939 in favor of the O class. Displacement was limited to 30,000 t (30,000 long tons) in the new designs so that the length of construction would be shortened from the normal four or more years that a battleship required, to an estimated three[5] to three and a half years.[6] Required characteristics for the battlecruisers was a displacement of 30,000 t (29,526 long tons), a main battery of six 380 mm (15 in) guns, a secondary battery of dual purpose guns, a top speed of 34 knots (63 km/h; 39 mph), a range of 15,000 nmi (28,000 km) at 19 knots (35 km/h; 22 mph), and enough armor to counter the 203 mm (8 in) guns of heavy cruisers.[7]"
This is likely to be our "30k ton lightweight" version of KW45 and 50, interest being revived in battlecruisers in 1938 and design work seriously beginning for them in 1939, same as described in the RM 20 text (January 1939).

I would like to add that, just because these designs come from a private shipyard, does not mean that they were not seriously considered. Spahkreuzer 38 - a class of 22 planned ships under the Z Plan, 1 laid down and several engine sets completed and more ordered, began its life as a Blohm and Voss alternative to the Type 1938A destroyer series and was taken in and subsequently modified.
 
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I was kinda hoping for it, but mostly P-class cruiser sketch and draft (in the separate RM/2443 files), pity since current existed KW45 picture have poor quality which make it difficult to track (the clue at bottom further right), at least give us a good reading how OKM want these ships to be, i head back to RM/6 sections do bit of reading.

Anyway, forgot that 15cm/L60 triple turret plan also digitalized, check it out.
 
alexi said:
I was kinda hoping for it, but mostly P-class cruiser sketch and draft (in the separate RM/2443 files), pity since current existed KW45 picture have poor quality which make it difficult to track (the clue at bottom further right), at least give us a good reading how OKM want these ships to be, i head back to RM/6 sections do bit of reading.

Anyway, forgot that 15cm/L60 triple turret plan also digitalized, check it out.
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Do you know the archive number for the 15cm/60?
 
!! NEW PLANS !!

I have been forwarded a new set of plans and I intend to upload and post them as soon as possible. Please stand by.

- Sarc.
 
Hello all,

Everything is on the upload.
Unfortunately it was not as groundbreaking as I might have hoped, but a good haul for some with more niche interests.

Included are the 15cm/60 SK C/25 triple plan and 20.3cm triple plan we already have. Additionally there are a couple of new plans for Kreuzer M, but they do not detail anything of particular importance - unless you happen to be looking for steam line arrangements and turbine sets. Two plans for the MAN M12Z 42/58 were included. There were four or so plans regarding the 15cm/55 SK C/28. The biggest contributors appear to be plans for two raiders: HSK 6 "Stier" and HSK 8 "Komoran", the latter I am sure will be of particular interest to some of you. There is one plan for a 26-atmosphere, 425-degree C boiler.

Please give about 3 hours for everything to complete uploading.

On a small note, I have concluded my business with Dr. Napp as of these last few plans, but intend to continue getting into direct contact with the archive.
 
Did you found any official documents which include proposed names for any of the cancelled ships? Like the Improved Deutschlands the D class, the sister ships of Graf Zeppelin or any of the Z-plan ships? H, M, O, P, SP classes?
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio/direktlink/e0fd75bc-5c21-4f53-9ff2-f4b708dddf9a/
!! RM 20/1912 AND RM/20 2443 HAVE BEEN DIGITIZED !!

This is due to principally to someone I know on Discord named Magiaconatus, who has also contacted and requested documents from the Bundesarchiv - though their ventures are regarding Scharnhorst (/1912), and just-so-happened to have picked up /2443 along the way, doing so ironically around the same time that we sit here discussing about wanting it.
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You mean RM 20/1913 is digitized and not RM 20/1912?
 
Tzoli said:
Did you found any official documents which include proposed names for any of the cancelled ships? Like the Improved Deutschlands the D class, the sister ships of Graf Zeppelin or any of the Z-plan ships? H, M, O, P, SP classes?
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It could possibly be in the RM 6 folders, though otherwise I don't think I have anything that details possible names as far as I can remember. With the possible exception of SP-1 who was laid down under that name and is unlikely to have had it changed, especially given there were to be 22 of them, and it being a modified DD design.

Oh, and Peter Strasser being Flugzeugtrager B, but that one is a bit obvious. D&E didn't really get names either. P, I believe, reached "Ersatz" status. M was laid down, sorta, but no name given.
 
Oh, I did get another email from Dr. Napp and he intends to push for getting W-04 index plans underway, as well as a couple of other things.

Included in W-04, but not limited to:
- Flottentorpedoboot 1942 construction plans.
- Flottentorpedoboot 1941 plans ranging from 1941-1944, which may include Flottentorpedoboot 1941A.
- Possibly Type 1937 plans or sketches ranging from 1935-40
- Various Type 1942 (Z-51) plans ranging from 1937-44.
- A single plan regarding Type 1943, but which is uncertain.
- A couple of potential Type 1936B plans.
- Plans for the ZH1, 1942-44.
- A single plan for ZG3.
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio/direktlink/e0fd75bc-5c21-4f53-9ff2-f4b708dddf9a/
!! RM 20/1912 AND RM/20 2443 HAVE BEEN DIGITIZED !!

This is due to principally to someone I know on Discord named Magiaconatus, who has also contacted and requested documents from the Bundesarchiv - though their ventures are regarding Scharnhorst (/1912), and just-so-happened to have picked up /2443 along the way, doing so ironically around the same time that we sit here discussing about wanting it.
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Hi Everyone.

I was a bit disappointed with the RM/20 2443 files. They had the well-known "A-V" variant, as well as "Entwurf 2", (similar to Breyer's drawing) but not "Entwurf 3", which seems to be a close relative of "Entwurf 2". OTOH, the "Entwurf 2" drawing shows some penciled-in corrections which seem to point to "Entwurf 3". Also, "Entwurf 2" is dated. (25 March 1939) That's a useful datapoint.
 
Hello all.

Been a while, but I received an update. I was told these plans were digitized, though I haven't checked to see which are which.
Screenshot_20221104-221724_Google.jpg
If anyone would like to find and post them here, I would appreciate it.
 
Most of them are torpedo boat plans, sketches and including a notebook (contains deck, armor, boiler room view section) for Emden light cruiser, just use search engine it save your time scrolling through these mess.
 
alexi said:
Most of them are torpedo boat plans, sketches and including a notebook (contains deck, armor, boiler room view section) for Emden light cruiser, just use search engine it save your time scrolling through these mess.
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Sorry, I am at sea and pretty much entirely incapable of using Invenio. I had hoped with the short time I was in port I could at least have what the plans were.
I got a list of all of them from an acquaintance of mine in the end. Very excited to see RM 25/235 when I get back to the States.
 
Hello , do you have any blueprints of radar systems used on Bismarck class and those that would be used on Graf Zeppelin?
 
lukasgrul said:
Hello , do you have any blueprints of radar systems used on Bismarck class and those that would be used on Graf Zeppelin?
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I know there should be some information and line drawings of them in various sources. I could try and take a look around over the next few days.
 
lukasgrul said:
Hello , do you have any blueprints of radar systems used on Bismarck class and those that would be used on Graf Zeppelin?
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I will admit that due to my incredible laziness I've been procrastinating on your request.
However, I'll give you what I've scrounged so far.

For Graf Zeppelin:
The 15cm/55 hull-mounted guns received their firing data from a forward 6-meter rangefinder, a direction indicator, and two target finders. The 10.5cm/65 DPAA guns were controlled by four triaxially stabilized SL-6 "ball type" control posts, with three having a 4-meter rangefinder and the fourth having a 5-meter rangefinder. 3.7cm and 2cm guns were directed by 1.25-meter rangefinders. There appears to have been no plan even as late as 1939 to include radar. In the bow you can find a S-Gerat and Gruppenhorchgerat.

For Bismarck only (because including Tirpitz is complicated):
Bismarck utilized 3 major rangefinder stations. One forward on top of the bridge structure was a 7-meter rangefinder, the second on the Turmmast was a 10.5-meter, and the one aft was a 10.5-meter as well. All three included FuMO 23 radar. B and X (Or B and C in German practice) 38cm turrets also included a 10.5-meter turret rangefinder. Turret A had a rangefinder until 1941. 15cm secondary battery guns that included a rangefinder in them had a 6.5-meter model. Bismarck's 10.5cm battery used two of the triaxially stabilized SL-8 "ball type" 4-meter rangefinders with two in reserve further aft (3-meter versions without the ball covering on top). She even had a couple of 3-meter night rangefinders. 1.25-meter rangefinders for the 3.7cm and 2cm battery.
Specifications of FuMO 23:
A 2x4-meter "mattress"-style radar with a frequency of 368 MHz and 81.5cm wavelength with a power output of 9 kW at 500 KHz with a range of approximately 25,000 yards (to other capital ships). The FuMO 22 featured a lot of the same specifications, and had a range of 25km with an accuracy of +/- 5 degrees. By comparison, the FuMO 21 (of the same specifications) had a range of 14-18km with an accuracy of +/- 3 degrees and the FuMO 24/25 with 15-20km range and +/- 0.3 degrees.
 
Update:

New plans for the Flottentorpedoboote 1940, SMS Baden, Ftb 1939, and Emden can now be found in their respective folders and sub-folders.

I think some of you will find the Ftb 1940 plans very interesting.

Thank you.
 
Update:

Got slightly less lazy, uploaded Blucher (1939) plans.

For those who want more detailed plans for the Hipper class that isn't just three images on The Dreadnought Project.

It's interesting to compare Blucher and Weser I (ex-Seydlitz).

Thank you.
 
I've attempted to once before request digitization from USNA but have been shot down. I'd need a private investigator of some sort to do so.
 

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