KRIEGSMARINE CENTRAL - KM Ship Plans/Discussion

[Force Lord]

Supposedly during preliminary discussions for Plan Z (the so-called Blueprint III), the Kriegsmarine considered building 4 12,000t light carriers alongside the Graf Zeppelins, but this was dropped by the time Plan Z was solidified. Is there any info about these supposed 12000t light carriers?

 

[drwells42]

There were some:

Small Aircraft Carrier
Seydlitz
Jade
De Grasse
21000t Design
Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier
Small Aircarft Carrier Project A
Small Aircarft Carrier Project B
Ausonia
Graf Zeppelin
Europa
Flugzeugträger A I
Flugdeckkreuzer E IV
Flugdeckkreuzer E V
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A II
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A III
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV

Hi Tzoli.

While all of these designs existed, many of them weren't "serious" projects. According to the Haedler article, (Marine Rundschau, Jan/Feb 1972) these may have been "busy work" projects to keep the younger naval architects from being being diverted to other jobs. (The Russian Front???) The " Gross Flugzeugkreuzer" designs were particularly bad, and "Flugzeugträger A I" wasn't much either.

DRW

 

[Tzoli]

There were some:

Small Aircraft Carrier
Seydlitz
Jade
De Grasse
21000t Design
Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier
Small Aircarft Carrier Project A
Small Aircarft Carrier Project B
Ausonia
Graf Zeppelin
Europa
Flugzeugträger A I
Flugdeckkreuzer E IV
Flugdeckkreuzer E V
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A II
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A III
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV

Hi Tzoli.

While all of these designs existed, many of them weren't "serious" projects. According to the Haedler article, (Marine Rundschau, Jan/Feb 1972) these may have been "busy work" projects to keep the younger naval architects from being being diverted to other jobs. (The Russian Front???) The " Gross Flugzeugkreuzer" designs were particularly bad, and "Flugzeugträger A I" wasn't much either.

DRW

Well the same applies to the other Kriegsmarine projects post Barbarossa.

 

[Tzoli]

Some data about the carriers I've mentioned: (What data I have about them)
You can read more about them here:

Carrier Projects

The German Kriegsmarine, Carrier Projects, Z-Plan, Carrier

www.german-navy.de

Small Aircraft Carrier / Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger - 1937
Small escort carrier to provide fighter cover
161 (oa) x 16 x 5,5m
6.000tons
45.000shp, Diesel, 2 shafts
4x2 10,5cm, 4x2 37mm, 8x2 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 15 (Fighters)

Seydlitz / Project Weser I - 1942
Conversion project of the KMS Seydltz heavy cruiser of the Admiral Hipper / Prinz Eugen class
201,5 (wl) x 217 (oa) x 32 x 7,9m
17.139tons
132.000shp, Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 59km/h, 12.000km
80mm Belt at 12.5°, 30mm Machinery, 40mm Magazine deck, 50mm slopes Armour
5x2 10,5cm, 5x2 37mm, 6x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 18-20 (Likely 10 Fighters, 8-10 Bombers)

Gneisenau,Potsdam / Project Jade,Elbe - 1942
Conversion of two Passenger liners SS Gneisenau and Potsdam
191 (wl) x 203 (oa) x 26,8 x 8,85m
18.160tons / 23.500tons
26.000shp, Steam Turbines, 2 shafts, 39km/h, 16.700km
15mm Machinery, 10mm Magazine Belt, 20mm deck Armour
6x2 10,5cm, 5x2 37mm, 8x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 24 (Likely 12 Fighters, 12 Diver Bombers)

De Grasse / Project Hilfsflugzeugträger II - 1942
Conversion of the unfinished French light cruiser MN De Grasse of the La Galissonnière class
192,5 (oa) x 24,4 x 5,6m
11.400tons
100.000shp, Steam Turbines, 2 shafts, 59km/h, 13.000km
6x2 10,5cm, 6x2 37mm, 6x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 23 (Likely 11 Fighters, 12 Bombers)

21.000ton design / Project Leichter Flugzeugträger 21.000ton - 1942
Dedicated, well armed light carrier project
255 (oa) x 26 x 8m
21.000 / 26.000tons
175.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 33.000km
8x2 15cm, 6x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm, 3x4 20mm Guns, 2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
Aircraft: 15 (Likely 9 Fighters, 6 Bombers)

Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier -1942
Specialized Merchant and commerce raiding Carrier project
196 (oa) x 22 x 7,6m
18.000tons
90.000shp, Diesel, 3 shafts, 56km/h, 33.000km
4x2 15cm, 4x2 10,5cm, 8x2 37mm, 3x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 28 (Likely 12 Fighters, 16 Bombers)

Small Aircraft Carrier A / Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger A - 1942
Dedicated light carrier project
172 (oa) x 22 x 7,25m
15.000tons
46.000shp, Diesel, 3 shafts, 48km/h, 33.000km
4x2 15cm, 4x2 10,5cm, 8x2 37mm, 4x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 22 (Likely 12 Fighters, 10 Bombers)

Small Aircraft Carrier B / Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger B - 1942
Dedicated light carrier project
180 (oa) x 22 x 7,5m
17.000tons
120.000shp, Steam Turbines, 2 shafts, 61km/h, 22.000km
2x2 10,5cm, 8x2 37mm, 6x1 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 15 (Likely 9 Fighters, 6 Bombers)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ausonia / Project Flugzeugträger I - 1918
Conversion project of the incomplete Italian passenger ship Ausonia
158,8 (oa) x 18,8 x 7,43m
17.000tons
18.000shp, Steam Turbines, 2 shafts, 39km/h,
Aircraft: 29-30 (Likely 19-20 Fighters, 10 Bombers)

Graf Zeppelin / Project Flugzeugträger A - 1936
The well known Graf Zeppelin class of two ships: Flugzeugträger A and B or Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser

Europa / Project Europa - 1942
Conversion project of the passenger ship SS Europa
291,5 (oa) x 37 x 10,3m
44.000 / 56.500tons
100.000shp, Steam Turbines, 4 shafts, 49km/h, 18.500km
6x2 10,5cm, 10x2 37mm, 9x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 42 (Likely 24 Fighters, 18 Bombers)

Aircraft Carrier A I / Project Flugzeugträger A I - 1942
Dedicated Carrier design, improved Graf Zeppelin
245 (oa) x 32 x 8,75m
37.500tons
210.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 33.300km
80mm Machinery, 100mm Magazine Belt, 60mm Machinery, 85mm Magazine deck, 60mm Slopes Armour
8x2 15cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 5x2 37mm Guns
Aircraft: 32 (Likely 12 Fighters, 20 Diver Bombers)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flightdeck Cruiser E IV / Project Flugdeckkreuzer E IV - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with light cruiser armament
188,87m (oa)
12.750tons
120.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h
80mm Machinery, 100mm Magazine Belt, 60mm Machinery, 85mm Magazine deck, 60mm Slopes Armour
4x1 15cm, 8x2 8,8cm, 6x2 37mm, 4x2 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 18 (Likely 10 Fighters, 8 Diver Bombers)

Flightdeck Cruiser E V / Project Flugdeckkreuzer E V - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with light cruiser armament
210m (oa)
19.150tons
180.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 66km/h
80mm Machinery, 100mm Magazine Belt, 60mm Machinery, 85mm Magazine deck, 60mm Slopes Armour
4x2 15cm, 5x2 8,8cm, 6x2 37mm, 6x2 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 18 (Likely 10 Fighters, 8 Diver Bombers)

Large Flightdeck Cruiser A II / Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A II - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with heavy cruiser armament, likely a modification of the A I design
245 (oa) x 32 x 8,75m
40.000tons
210.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 33.300km
100mm Belt, 150mm deck, 100mm Slopes Armour
1x4 20,3cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm
Aircraft: 24 (Likely 12 Fighters, 12 Diver Bombers)

Large Flightdeck Cruiser A IIa / Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with Scharnhorst type battlecruiser armament, a modification of the A II design
250 (oa) x 32 x 8,75m
40.000tons
210.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 33.300km
200mm Belt, 100mm deck, 100mm Slopes Armour
2x3 28cm, 6x2 15cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm, 10x2 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 24 (Likely 12 Fighters, 12 Diver Bombers)

Large Flightdeck Cruiser A III / Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A III - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with Scharnhorst type battlecruiser armament
280 (oa) x 38 x 11,5m
70.000tons
280.000shp, Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 37.000km
250mm Belt, 150mm deck, 100mm Slopes Armour
2x3 28cm, 8x2 15cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm Guns, 2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
Aircraft: 32 (Likely 12 Fighters, 20 Diver Bombers)

Large Flightdeck Cruiser A IV / Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with Scharnhorst type battlecruiser armament, a modification of the A III design
280 (oa) x 38 x 11,5m
70.000tons
280.000shp, Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 37.000km
250mm Belt, 120mm deck, 100mm Slopes Armour
1x4 28cm, 8x2 15cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm Guns, 2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
Aircraft: 32 (Likely 12 Fighters, 20 Diver Bombers)




Based on the project designations there are still a few missing variants l9ike
Flugdeckkreuzer E I trough III or any post development of E V and A IV

 

[lukasgrul]

Do you have blueprints of flugzeugtrager A I? Info that Tzoli written looks very interesting. Could that be the flugzeugtrager C and D when it have three shafts?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Do you have blueprints of flugzeugtrager A I? Info that Tzoli written looks very interesting. Could that be the flugzeugtrager C and D when it have three shafts?

I'm pretty sure they're in the Share Drive under Carriers. A I was an entirely new development, though recognizably related to Flugzeugtrager A (GZ).

 

[lukasgrul]

Oh, I thought that it was related to Großflugdeckkreuzer series.

 

[Tzoli]

Here are the drawings that I have downloaded ages ago:
Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier:


21.000ton design:


Aircraft Carrier A I / Project Flugzeugträger A I:


Ausonia:


De Grasse / Project Hilfsflugzeugträger II:


Project Europa:




Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa:


Flugzeugkreuzer A II:


Flugzeugkreuzer A III:


Flugzeugkreuzer A IV:


Grossflugzeugkreuzer A III:



Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger A:


Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger B:


Graf Zeppelin.
Check the image attachements.

 

[lukasgrul]

Awesome images, I am surprised how long is that 21000t design.

 

[alexi]

Aircraft Carrier "C" and "D" never been designed (talked in previous threads), they were only speculated to be smaller and more cost-effective light carrier type (the mostly using to conducting long-range commerce raiding, which led to heavy use of diesel engines).
The 21000, 15000, 12000 and even smaller commerce carriers are reflected to that.
Funny, there's one design "C" variant from Large Atlantic Carrier "A III" (this doesn't matter according to committees because none of these projects are serious), which have double amount of aircraft (60 vs 32) by removing belt armor, reducing some protection elsewhere.

 

[lukasgrul]

Do you have any info about Europa´s flight deck dimensions like width on both ends and thicknes?

 

[Tzoli]

From Wiki:

German aircraft carrier I (1942) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The ship's flight deck was 276 m (906 ft) long and 30 m (98 ft) wide. There was a single hangar that was 216 m (709 ft) long, 25 m (82 ft) wide forward, and 30 m (98 ft) wide aft. No armor was to have been added to the ship during the conversion process.[6]

Source:
Gröner, Erich (1990). German Warships: 1815–1945. Vol. I: Major Surface Vessels. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 978-0-87021-790-6.

 

[lukasgrul]

Can you recommend me some books about german carriers, Bismarck class etc.?

 

[Tzoli]

I don't have such books, German, especially WW2 German navy ain't my favorite. But others should provide titles.

 

[Tzoli]

In the mean time here is my drawing of the Flottentorpedoboote 1944 or T52 class based on official sketch:

https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/Flottentorpedoboote-1944-970711569

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 98 (wl) x 103 (oa) x 10,1 x 3,07m
Displacement: 1.418ons (standard), 1.794tons (full load)
Engines: 52.000shp Wagner Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Speed: 69km/h (37-37,5knots)
Range: 8.300km (4.500nm)
Armaments:
2x2 10.5cm/52 SK C/36 Guns,
5x2 3cm/73 SK C/30 AA Guns,
2x3 53cm Torpedo Tubes,
60x Mines

Sensors:
1x FuMo 24/25 (Above the rangefinder in front of the Mainmast)
11 FuMo 63 Hohentweil-K (Behind the 2nd funnel)
FuMo 231 Euklid (On the front of the Rangefinder FlakleitGerat M42)

 

[SaskJack]

Wow Sarcasticat. I do not know how you got the drawings, but wow and thank you. I have spent the last few years looking for information on Panzershiff Lutzow, and in 5 minutes bang.

Do you have any drawings for 1936A Mob destroyer or 1937 Type torpedo boat T13-T21?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Wow Sarcasticat. I do not know how you got the drawings, but wow and thank you. I have spent the last few years looking for information on Panzershiff Lutzow, and in 5 minutes bang.

Do you have any drawings for 1936A Mob destroyer or 1937 Type torpedo boat T13-T21?

Hello Sask,

I do this because when I was young...er...I was always in a situation where I couldn't find any of the plans I wanted, left asking or begging others. After being brushed off (many do not really care for the KM) several times (and for several years!), I decided to take matters in my own hands.

You can find digitized versions here on Bundesarchiv under RM 25 (this will initially lead you to Nurnberg iirc, and you can go from there).

Digitised Fonds

www.bundesarchiv.de

I also contacted historical investigators who could bypass a lot of red tape and photo plans directly using their status, or could hook me up with digitized versions - for a cost.

As for Type 1936A...it's been a bit elusive, but I think I have a plan or two, and the same goes for the Type 1937's. You'll have to give me a few days to get you these images, but rest assured that I pull through much more often than most.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

@Tzoli Only changes I would make to your description is that the 3cm/73 guns are MK 303's and that the weights are in long tons.

 

[lukasgrul]

Do you have more detailed blueprints of the 21000t design of aircraft carrier?

 

[Force Lord]

Do you have more detailed blueprints of the 21000t design of aircraft carrier?

Best I could find is from this Russian site: http://seawarpeace.ru/deutsch/flug/01_main/03_21.html

 

[lukasgrul]

Thank you very much

 

[gibeau patrick]

Hello, does anyone have the plans for the catapult for the arado 196 mounted on the casar turret of the gneisenau or the scharhnorst.
CORDIALLY
patrick

 

[lukasgrul]

I don´t know much about it but I think that it is an ordinary FL-22 catapult found on other german ships like Admiral Hipper class, Deutschland class atc. I think that same catapult was to be on Graf Zeppelin also. Only picture I have is that from Graf Zeppelin, but I will try to find it for you.

 

[lukasgrul]

Hello I found a blueprint of 35cm gun on some random German wows forum. Maybe for some bismarck preliminary? I want to ask anybody if you have top view of shipbucket scale guns: 105mm SK/C33 L65 in LC38 mount, 37mm FLAK M42 in DLM 42 mount and lastly 20mm SK/C38 on quad mount C/35?

 

[alexi]

Hello I found a blueprint of 35cm gun on some random German wows forum. Maybe for some bismarck preliminary? I want to ask anybody if you have top view of shipbucket scale guns: 105mm SK/C33 L65 in LC38 mount, 37mm FLAK M42 in DLM 42 mount and lastly 20mm SK/C38 on quad mount C/35?

It's actually 28.3cm guns (given the estimated barrel length), i posted on previous page and probably only existed 35cm guns on invenio are Mackensen L/45 twin turret, two variants with different hoist placements.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Looks like the B and C turrets for Hippers, as Alexi said.
I don't think I have anything for the C38, but maybe something for the DLM 42 and Flakvierling, but I will have to check again.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

@SaskJack I will find what I can for you and compile it with what I give Lukasgrul. Haven't forgotten, but haven't been on land in a long while either.

 

[lukasgrul]

Does anybody know how many arresting gear cables would Europa have?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Twin 3.7cm 69 and Flakvierling

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Wow Sarcasticat. I do not know how you got the drawings, but wow and thank you. I have spent the last few years looking for information on Panzershiff Lutzow, and in 5 minutes bang.

Do you have any drawings for 1936A Mob destroyer or 1937 Type torpedo boat T13-T21?

I think I have a couple of plans for the 36A Mob and at least some general layout line drawings for the Type 1937 in pictures of books, but you need to do a little digging.

 

[Jemiba]

For the waiting time, until better drawings come up, here are the Zerstörer 1936A (Mob) and T 20, as
shown in Haral Fock's book "Z-vor !" volume 2

 

[lukasgrul]

Here are sarcasticats blueprints of aircraft carriers. Only thing I did was to make from multiple scans only one full length.

 

[lukasgrul]

How can I share my google disc to this forum? I can´t put here some blueprints because they are to big.

 

[NinjaGamer_5]

the De Grasse’s runway looks a bit odd at the bow. From what I’ve seen of Carriers, the runways always have a rectangular shape, not an oblong shape. Are there any advantages to having one?

 

[NinjaGamer_5]

Oh wait I wasn’t looking close enough now I see the square end

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

How can I share my google disc to this forum? I can´t put here some blueprints because they are to big.

Your Google Drive? You will need to share a link, which you should be able to get by clicking on the name of the folder you want to share, clicking "Share" and copying and pasting the link provided.

 

[lukasgrul]

Well here are some blueprints that I will provide right now, but don´t vorry I will provide more. And thank you to all of you who helped me with research of the Europa only with your help I was able to make this shipbucket drawing. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ixMaAnsBhybza8Ka4qLodId-wvvvgmfs?usp=sharing

 

[Tzoli]

Didn't you put the bridge superstructure on the wrong side?

 

[alexi]

Just got back from Invenio, they have some updates for ships and weapon plans in Imperial Navy sections, but since am more interests into weapons, here's a quick couples i went through for now:
- 15cm/L45 MPL in twin mounts, dated 1920 intended for a replacement cruiser (might related to preliminary twin turreted Emden).
- 15cm/L45 MPLO, anti-air mount designed in 1919 (coastal mounts possibly).
- Twin mount 34cm/L45, at least two and two more hasn't yet digitalized and including one data table.
- Triple mount 34cm/L45 (1911), with data and turret sketches but image quality kinda eh.
- You can find both single and twin 21cm/L45 in Blücher file plans (RM-3 teil 09), single mount wasn't used but have been proposed on some armored cruiser plans.

 

[alexi]

Aircraft Carrier B also digitalized too, only the first part (main drawings) and there are two designs (one with island and one full flush-deck, with side exhausts.)