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Eurofighter Typhoon

fightingirish

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SteveO

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I wonder how much of a kit it really is? I'd like to think it's just a matter of replacing the existing strakes, leading edge, flaps and a software update but that's probably too much to hope for ;)
 

fightingirish

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helmutkohl

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translation,
Egypt to buy 24 Typhoons, several M-346 and FREMM Frigates from Italia

cool, so now they have F-16s, Mirage 2000s, Typhoons, Rafales, MiG-35s, supposedly Su-35s on order
they just need to buy some Gripens to complete their collection

:rolleyes:

I can understand buying two models of aircraft from different countries due to concerns over geopolitics, but half a dozen different types...
 

galgot

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So Italy , who is supporting the internationally recognized Gov (GNA) in Lybia , managed to sell 24 Typhoon (among other things) to Egypt supporting (with arms and personnels) General Haftar's LNA fighting the GNA... That is interesting indeed.
 
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Deino

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So Italy , who is supporting the internationally recognized Gov (GNA) in Lybia , managed to sell 24 Typhoon (among other things) to Egypt supporting (with arms and personnels) General Haftar's LNA fighting the GNA... That is interesting indeed.

And how reliable is this given source for this IMO most unlikely sale?
 

galgot

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So Italy , who is supporting the internationally recognized Gov (GNA) in Lybia , managed to sell 24 Typhoon (among other things) to Egypt supporting (with arms and personnels) General Haftar's LNA fighting the GNA... That is interesting indeed.

And how reliable is this given source for this IMO most unlikely sale?
No idea... Maybe we'll see Egyptian AF, Italian sold Typhoon bombing Italian supported GNA .
Or maybe see how Italy policy toward GNA evolves in the coming month... 24 Typhoons, several M-346 and FREMM Frigates is maybe worth giving up help to GNA... ?
 

VTOLicious

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So Italy , who is supporting the internationally recognized Gov (GNA) in Lybia , managed to sell 24 Typhoon (among other things) to Egypt supporting (with arms and personnels) General Haftar's LNA fighting the GNA... That is interesting indeed.
...That Egypt is shopping with US funding makes it even more interesting :D
 

helmutkohl

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Indonesia wants to buy Austria's Eurofighters

not too long ago I joked around about Indonesia wanting to buy Eurofighters, Rafales, Hornets, etc to complete their collection of 4th gen fighters..
but I guess it might come true lol


my question is
1. what will Austria replace their Typhoons with?
2. will Indonesia replace any aircraft in return? Austrian Typhoons are quite limited IRC
 

Archibald

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More seriously, even without ground attack capability, and maybe not upgraded since Batch 1 - Indonesia doesn't care.

The lure of buying Typhoons at bargain price, because "off the shelf" [third hand (!) would be more appropriate] is very strong.

Nowadays, having powerful, modern combat aircraft (even in small numbers and a bit outdated standard) is very important for many countries.
Particularly in Asia.
Why ?
Because of China growing threat on the region... the unfortunate neighbourghs have to "flex their muscles" and (dare I say) tell China "mine is bigger, I have no fear of you".

Basically a giant d**k showing contest...

Thailand aircraft carrier is one startling example of that trend. We all know how underused this one is - her majesty super yacht.

A lot of Asian contries that once assumed air defense duties "on the cheap" with F-5 Tigers, found they can't do this anymore, not gainst the Chinese angry bear... when Chinese H6K come violating your airspace, you'd better have modern fighters to intercept them. Even more when J-20s will replace them.
Not because the Chinese are there on a war mission - more subtle, it is a matter of intimidation.
Basically, if the H6K intruder is intercepted by F-5E, the chinese goes LMAO and are encouraged to continue over and over.
Now if the same H6K intruder is welcomed by AMRAAM armed Typhoons, things might be different.

Don't forget, back in '78 the Shah of Iran send a powerful message to USSR leadership when its Tomcats illuminated one of these pesky MiG-25R an entire minute with their AWG-9s.
Boom, Soviet overflights ceased from this moment. No need to waste an expensive AIM-54 shooting the intruder - just scare the heck out of him.
 
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helmutkohl

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^ I agree, China is a serious threat, especially after some recent issues over disputed territory between the two.. Indonesia has became more aggressive in defending its territory

but I'm still having a hard time understanding their purchasing logic.
For example, they're struggling to finance the KFX which is due to fly in a few months
why not, instead of buying Typhoons, use that money into the KFX which is probably half a generation ahead?

or buy more of their existing types. like the Su-30s which definitely have the range to cover maritime territory
or upgrade their F-16s?
 

Archibald

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This is the tragic, classic story of "national pride, indigenous fighter" versus "expensive, difficult, time consuming, obsolete type"
It happened to Canada - wanted the Arrow, got F-101B
It happened to switzerland - wanted FFA P.16, got Hawker Hunters
It happened to Israel - wanted Lavis, got F-16s
Also consider
India and Tejas
Japan's F-2.
Not a bad aircraft per se, but essentially an insanely expensive F-16 clone (note: not my opinion, but Teal Group Richard Aboulafia)
and Tejas... oh well. While the F-2 is an honest-to-God (but very expensive) F-16 re-invention, Tejas is 2/3rd of a Mirage 2000... 30 years late.

The real risk for Indonesia is to get either a Tejas or a F-2. They can't bet everything on this one. As for foreign aircraft like Su-30 - they are expensive.

It is a catch-22...

"indigenous fighter = high tech jobs and keeping hard currencies inside the country"
Yeah, but alas
"indigenous fighter also mean Tejas - 30 years in development, for what ?"

So far the one and only that seemed to get the best of both worlds (instead of the worse) seems to be South Korea.
- Licence-build F-16s
- A/T-50 to learn modestly (and a nice result so far)
- KFX - the big leap into the unknown... (I kind of like the design so far - look ma, a F-35 with Superbug engines !)

Japan keeps trying.

Israel has given up.
 

stealthflanker

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but I'm still having a hard time understanding their purchasing logic.
You don't as arms procurement here is intriguing. Mostly ran through group in power. It also not went through a proper Technical analysis to say the least.

For example, they're struggling to finance the KFX which is due to fly in a few months
If you read indonesian i can show you a thesis topic about that back in 2015.

Basically it is a difference in perspective. Our perspective on KFX was that it is a "do or die" strategic plan which should not be affected by anything like Elections or global economy etc. But things happen and there was a delay on KFX back in 2013... This caused the alotted budget to not get absorbed properly. Like we alotted 1B but only 300M got used. This, in our budgetary scheme are a waste, as a result our ministry of treasury simply consider that the project is "messy" and decided not to allocate more funds to it. Resulting in a shock during 2018 where our MOD back then (RYamrizad Ryacudu) surprised the Ministry of treasury by requesting additional funds for KFX


or buy more of their existing types. like the Su-30s which definitely have the range to cover maritime territory
or upgrade their F-16s?
Sukhoi would be difficult due to CAATSA and to some extent even with counter trade agreement there is problem that there are no allocation of funds in the budget+ external factors. Russians asked for Rubbers. However should we purchase a large amount of it... we would get into trouble with Malaysia where we have a treaty of "rubber quota". Purchase of rubbers in the amount that required for the Flanker deal can be considered breach and "over production". Thus why suddenly our govt trying to offer other comodities which Russians will of course not accept as they dont really need them.

. Scheme is keep being worked on especially on the Su-35. but things gonna remain slow.

F-16's ? Well these Typhoons would be allocated for our Air Defense Force (Kohanudnas - Komando Pertahanan Udara Nasional) They have been "dreaming" about having a real interceptor that can actually have the climb performance (T/W = 1 or more) and acceleration to caught with air trespasser, our air defense command have problem with Jets like Gulfstream and sometime even the Falcon just dont have enough juice to sprint, thus why we ended up using Flankers which some considered a waste as it's a big two engined design, but It does have the power to sprint.
 

helmutkohl

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thanks stealthy

in your honest opinion
how do you think the Indonesian air force should modernize their Air Force in the next 15 years?
 

stealthflanker

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thanks stealthy

in your honest opinion
how do you think the Indonesian air force should modernize their Air Force in the next 15 years?
Two major gaps that must be addressed.

1.Capability to operate-maintain and especially counter Low observable target.
2.Capability to perform NCW and Counter NCW.


Those two are the most critical considering that there are potential threats like China, India, Australia and Singapore. All of which have such capability, operational or planned. Even when we actually choose to ally with any of them without addressing the two major gaps ourselves we would turn into a massive liability. China or US Alliance would ended up spending Billions in aid trying to provide any defense support.

Unfortunately however the "higher ups" there still have not realized it. Sure, trying to buy Rafale, typhoon or other planes would stir news but not much can be done if they can't really contribute to deter foreign power having cruise missile or low observable asset.

In terms of procurement tho i would love to see KFX went through as it's not only gave us "know how" on actually develop fighters but also it introduces us to Low observable target. The lowest target we had for real air combat maneuvering was Korean T-50 and Hawk. These are conventional planes, small and having RCS of about 1 sqm. But this is 2020 and we won't be facing 1 sqm but something at least 0.3 sqm CJ-10 missile or 0.001 sqm JSF or J-20's. There is apparent relationship between target RCS and the required number of defending fighters.

Below is a part of a some presentation I did about that. Relating target RCS (Cruise missile) Vs the amount of required fighter to defend against it.

scenarios.png

The assumption is 216 cruise missile salvo from assumed H6K regiment. They would be firing CJ-10 or other types. Although the RCS is unknown i made several assumptions namely 1 sqm, 0.3 sqm, 0.01, 0.001 and 0.0001 sqm. The number of fighters required to defend against them is a function of the fighter's Radar range. Better radar = better fighter = Less amount of them required to defend against any given salvo.

So to defend against a salvo of 216, 1 Sqm RCS cruise missile we only need about 22 Su-35 vs over 181 of older F/16A-B using APG-66. Still however the lower the Cruise missile's RCS. The more fighters required down to perhaps impractical number of over 2160 F-16A/B... basically half or third of every F-16 ever produced. Fighter would cost about perhaps Tens of millions, Low RCS Cruise missile ? 1 M USD. Great financial win there for China.

Having AEW would be great. It is not in the slide yet but S-band AEW can basically Halve the number of the required fighters. Moving to L-band will further halving the required number of fighters. e.g. No AEW = 117 Su-35 needed to counter 0.001 sqm. S-band AEW = 59 fighters can cover, L-band AEW = 30 fighters.
Indonesia was back in 1996. made study on AEW but as you see it never made any progress. That's basically the Low observable part.

The NCW part is basically... well All potential threat nations have AEW, Networking. What are we going to do with it ? Discussions so far at least in our community is that "Indonesia should do NCW too.. having datalink bla-bla-bla" But nothing on "What should we do to make the other side cannot use their NCW". Shooting down Enemy AEW or BACN Aircraft or at least jam their network hasnt yet to enter the realm of our thoughts. This i would love if our nation paid attention into.
 

GTX

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Indonesia wants to buy Austria's Eurofighters

not too long ago I joked around about Indonesia wanting to buy Eurofighters, Rafales, Hornets, etc to complete their collection of 4th gen fighters..
but I guess it might come true lol


my question is
1. what will Austria replace their Typhoons with?
2. will Indonesia replace any aircraft in return? Austrian Typhoons are quite limited IRC
 

Flyaway

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Bit more background in this article.

 

TomcatViP

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With the given availability number of those Typhoons, it does not matter if those are threat or not: they are probably out of reach from their future hangar.
 

Archibald

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Austrian defence minister Klaudia Tanner had received a letter from her Indonesian counterpart Prabowo Subianto expressing interest in the aircraft.
Subianto le moment pour l'Indonésie d'acheter des Typhoons... :p
 

stealthflanker

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Are 3 of those countries even threats though?
Potential. Like They have in my view, considerable power projection potential. Imagine if sometime our politics were happen to be not in the same way. Back then in 1960's UK and Australia considered Indonesia as threat based on our politics and projection capability.

It would be naive to always assume everything will just like as the present.
 

Purpletrouble

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Always been disapointed that Tr3 aircraft weren’t “Tempests” with AESA, CFTs, EJ230 TV engines (not for agility - their main advantage is using them to reduce trim deflections and thus improve efficiency - although I have been told that with them the canards could be eliminated - from the very engineer at the centre of the team that designed Typhoon’s FCS).

One thing to consider is Typhoon was designed for an 8000 service life, Tranche 1s wilnget about 60% of that before scrap. F35 too yet already the first blocks are not worth upgrading.

As we move from hand built to factory built aircraft, I guess it is cheaper to replace than upgrade since that necessarily is still hand build?

8000 service life comes with a lot of weight in the structure and LRU internals, plus a lot of cost for the supporting analysis, design, testing and certficiation.
 

DWG

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- although I have been told that with them the canards could be eliminated - from the very engineer at the centre of the team that designed Typhoon’s FCS).
Don't think I ever heard anyone make that claim while I was on the team, and while you could just drive them in the opposite sense to the canards to generate a similar control force, my immediate reaction is it introduces a whole new set of failure modes, and will cost you those efficiency gains, while majorly changing the aero qualities. Losing the canards and their actuators would also be non-trivial in terms of what it does to CofG (admittedly so would be adding TVC). The combination would force a huge re-write of the FCS and a complete ab-initio flight test campaign.

It took years just to agree to try the German changes to the running board strakes, so even if the EJ230/TVC combo was flying this wouldn't be arriving any time soon.
 

Purpletrouble

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- although I have been told that with them the canards could be eliminated - from the very engineer at the centre of the team that designed Typhoon’s FCS).
Don't think I ever heard anyone make that claim while I was on the team, and while you could just drive them in the opposite sense to the canards to generate a similar control force, my immediate reaction is it introduces a whole new set of failure modes, and will cost you those efficiency gains, while majorly changing the aero qualities. Losing the canards and their actuators would also be non-trivial in terms of what it does to CofG (admittedly so would be adding TVC). The combination would force a huge re-write of the FCS and a complete ab-initio flight test campaign.

It took years just to agree to try the German changes to the running board strakes, so even if the EJ230/TVC combo was flying this wouldn't be arriving any time soon.
It would very much not be a trivial piece of work. But the canards have a significant impact upon RCS also. TV would require a complete re-write of the FCS anyway.

The amount of work and the relatively modest gains (not transformational) against actually getting the aircraft weapons capability and that (probably correct) sense that it was “good enough” in these areas is why this never went anywhere.

The reason it took years for the German strakes was that the UK saw absolutely no value in them having tested independently and flat out refused to go any fuether for many years. I left years ago but that was the position then so either something changed technically, or politically.
 

DWG

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The reason it took years for the German strakes was that the UK saw absolutely no value in them having tested independently and flat out refused to go any fuether for many years. I left years ago but that was the position then so either something changed technically, or politically.
I left before the test programme, but my impression was there was a gradual shift in leadership with Ottobrunn/Manching gaining more influence.
 

helmutkohl

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more news about Indonesia's buy of the Typhoon

and since we are at it.. they still will go ahead with the Su-35 purchase

now we can finally have DACT between the two
 

Flyaway

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And they are paying for this by barter as such?
 

Archibald

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Once again, please don't link Sputnik articles here. Sputnik is Putin propaganda machine. Most of their stuff is horseshit.
 

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