Eurofighter Typhoon

If you dont think the defence budget going from $16bn in 2023 to $40bn in 2024 is a large increase there is no point discussing it.
 
WatcherZero said:
If you dont think the defence budget going from $16bn in 2023 to $40bn in 2024 is a large increase there is no point discussing it.
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You'll find your answer right here:
snne said:
That amount includes the allocated budgets of each Turkish sec. branches, i.e. the Police, the Gendarmerie, etc. also have their respective shares in that. So there isn't a big difference compared to previous years' budgets.
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You're late, pal. This has already been talked about in the Turkish circles 2 months ago, and it has been clarified that a significant portion of that budget goes to other security brances which are a part of the Ministry of Interior.

The budget hasn't changed and only a sum amounting to 4-5B dollars goes to procurement each year.

But the only point I agree with is that as all of these projects begin serial production they'll have to increase the budget.

They have been underinvesting for 2 decades now and as the current equipments age they'll have to replace them soon at some point, which will force their hand.

The branch which needs the most urgent replacement is the Air Force with their aging fighter fleet. TurAF had lost a lot of blood when it lost out on the planned 120+ aircraft F-35 fleet.

And now they're surrounded by conflicts everywhere and they need a kick-ass intermediate solution that can counter the recent procurements of rival nations until Kaan/MMU is available.

This is as real as it gets.

Now, I don't think that Germany is going to allow a sale, but whichever aircraft the government buys doesn't matter now.

TurAF needed new blood even 20 years ago but each time they requested exactly that, the government put it off. They even delayed the purchase/arrival of the F-35s by a couple of years saying that they'll get a better deal with a more capable Block and look where we are now.
 
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If that NATO thing with Sweden entrance is solved dutifully (as per NATO spirit obligations), I am pretty sure a Gazillion of German approved Typhoon will stray the skies of Turkey in the blink of an eye.
 
Slightly random question. Have there been any Eurofighters visiting Turkey recently? I was looking at FR24 for something else a couple of days ago and spotted a pair of RAF Typhoons flying from southern Turkey (the track didn't actually go all the way back to Incirlik, but it sure pointed that way) across the eastern Med and south of Cyprus. Routine or unusual?
 
TomS said:
Slightly random question. Have there been any Eurofighters visiting Turkey recently? I was looking at FR24 for something else a couple of days ago and spotted a pair of RAF Typhoons flying from southern Turkey (the track didn't actually go all the way back to Incirlik, but it sure pointed that way) across the eastern Med and south of Cyprus. Routine or unusual?
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Well Turkey just expressed interest in buying them…
 
timmymagic said:
15 x Typhoon EK for the German Air Force confirmed.

Translation of Text

Green light from Parliament: 15 #Eurofighter will be upgraded with the latest reconnaissance technology (electromagnetic). GenLt Ingo Gerhartz: “With this jet, which specializes in electronic warfare, we can provide NATO with a unique capability.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1729913775094935875
View: https://twitter.com/Team_Luftwaffe/status/1729913775094935875
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Keyword is upgrade.

WatcherZero said:
German Government has approved the 15 EK order. Will be signed next month.

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Also here: "Airbus will equip 15 German Eurofighters for electronic combat - and equip them with a transmitter location and self-protection system from Saab, as well as "AARGM" anti-radar missiles from the American company Northrop Grumman."

So these will not be 15 additional EFs, but upgrades to 15 T2/T3/T4 airframes already in the inventory or planned. The T4 on order will replace the T1 EFs on a 1:1 basis. No additional orders in sight... yet. Maybe to follow if they actually go from SEAD to full Electronic Combat/EK.
 
TomS said:
Slightly random question. Have there been any Eurofighters visiting Turkey recently? I was looking at FR24 for something else a couple of days ago and spotted a pair of RAF Typhoons flying from southern Turkey (the track didn't actually go all the way back to Incirlik, but it sure pointed that way) across the eastern Med and south of Cyprus. Routine or unusual?
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Well they've been visiting the Anatolian Eagle exercises for a couple of years now.... They also somewhat regularly use the Turkish airspace to patrol over East Med and the Black Sea. In fact it's not unusual for mil flight trackers to spot them over Turkey on fr24.
 
eagle said:
Keyword is upgrade.

So these will not be 15 additional EFs, but upgrades to 15 T2/T3/T4 airframes already in the inventory or planned. The T4 on order will replace the T1 EFs on a 1:1 basis. No additional orders in sight... yet. Maybe to follow if they actually go from SEAD to full Electronic Combat/EK.
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I think specifically what it was authorising was the development program and procurement of equipment to fit 15 aircraft.
 
kqcke for you said:
Its supposed to be Gripens pdo for the wingtips they get.
Why i ask me is how this impacts Praetorian DASS capabilitys.
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Its all very complicated with a mix of the baseline 4-nation aircraft configuration, and then different national configurations on top of this, both in hardware, and software loads e.g. some countries already have functionality that others' aircraft do not. You're not going to get a clear picture.
 
fightingirish said:
According to that picture, will the German Eurofighter EK have new extended wing roots, like tested on a prototype years ago?
And will it also keep the Mauser BK-27 revolver cannon?
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Good question. From what i could find until now its still has the BK-27, the Pictures Shows the AMK Kit installed and Gripens E Alexis parts (primary the ELS) will be installed. Its also supposed to be integrated into Dass Pretorian If i read that right between the lines.
They Look fixed on the ECW (Electronic combat wingman) which probaly will get the "Jammer pods" so one can Battle the range problem because CFT are a no go (dont know why) just like the 1800l tank or somehow every other idea they had because GALyePrXAAAXGah.jpeg
 
Given the usual speed of European defense, Electronic combat wingman is somewhere deep in 2030s.

For now it appears to be sort of f-16cj of the Eurofighter world, exchanging self-defense jamming capability for threat location and ARGMs.

Given f-35 procurement(which does all the same, better, stock), IMHO later stages can are already dead and can be ignored - looks more like a stopgap procurement to get at least some modern AD suppressors.
 
Germany's Request from Turkey EF-2000 Terms of Use: Regional Use!

Speaking to NTV the other day, Minister of National Defense Yaşar GÜLER said that among the EF-2000 usage conditions that Germany put forward to Turkey was that "it should be used in certain regions and not in other certain regions".

Minister Güler stated that, in general, there is no explanation for an ally imposing various conditions on another ally. (Google Translate)
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1734623318232248584
View: https://twitter.com/mavivatannet/status/1734623318232248584?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1734623318232248584%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
 
What they are talking about, IMO, is that there will be an initial SEAD capability through DASS ESM upgrades and AARGM integration, which likely comes with P4E, which in turn might be split into increments like previous pacakages. P4E is also supposed to introduce the ECRS Mk1 and 2 radars and feature the approrpiate common radar interface and task based management of these radares. This will extend to offensive jamming capabilities later on (P5E/P6E) in line with the wider LTE upgrade, utilising the radar and the dedicated EA pods. Inboard wing tanks might be part of it and at least T4 A/C should be provisioned for this.
 
Interesting...
Military Aviation History said:
How Germany Fixed The Eurofighter Typhoon Problem
Germany's Self-Made Eurofighter Typhoon Problem stands on the precipice of being solved. Join me as I talk about the newest member of the Eurofighter family, the "Eurofighter EK" - transforming Typhoon into an Electronic Warfare aircraft.
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View: https://youtu.be/slaQxgcq49E?si=kd-lml16ZRMpCcB0
 
Surprised that the RAF are going to strip the early Tranche 1 Tyhoons for spare parts for the rest of the fleet instead of upgrading them to Tranche 3 Typhoons. GCAP/Tempest cannot come quick enough in this case. :mad:
 
FighterJock said:
Surprised that the RAF are going to strip the early Tranche 1 Tyhoons for spare parts for the rest of the fleet instead of upgrading them to Tranche 3 Typhoons. GCAP/Tempest cannot come quick enough in this case. :mad:
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Its long been known that it was next to impossible to upgrade Tranche 1 because the airframes have had extra holes drilled for upgrades while in service and dont have reserve structural strength for further penetrations (more meat was added to the struts of the airframe between Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 to strengthen it for the additional holes) and there isnt a coolant connection piped to the nose for the AESA radar. Airbus has said they can upgrade the German and Italian Tranche 1's but so far no country has committed to it.
 
fightingirish said:
It appears, that the German government have reconsidered their opposition to an Eurofighter sale for Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The German foreign minister Mrs. Baerbock, who is visiting Israel, supports an approval based on improved relationship of Kingdom with Israel & their recent Houthi missile intercepts.
Source (German):

Baerbock: Bundesregierung will Lieferung britischer Eurofighter an die Saudis freigeben – Augen geradeaus!

augengeradeaus.net augengeradeaus.net
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This prolly means no Eurofighters for Turkey. Welp, they have to buy stop-gap fighters from somewhere... They either buy from the Chinese now (like as if they'd even discuss selling J-10CEs to a NATO ally :D) or compulsorily go all in on Kaan with all of its financial and industrial might (Which is already happening anyway).

What we can say is that the period between 2024-28/29/30 will be quite stressful for TuAF. Sure, they can domestically modernize the current F-16 fleet with indigenous packages but it desperately needs new aircraft.
 
Perhaps there may have been something about that talk of Germany looking to GCAP after all. This would be a significant deal sweetener. Though a reasonable excuse, I doubt the Houthi's antics are the proximal cause of the Damascene conversion.
 
Broken said:
Perhaps there may have been something about that talk of Germany looking to GCAP after all. This would be a significant deal sweetener. Though a reasonable excuse, I doubt the Houthi's antics are the proximal cause of the Damascene conversion.
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There is no way in hell the Germans will be allowed into GCAP after this stunt with the Typhoons.
 
helmutkohl said:
https://www.reuters.com/world/germany-will-not-oppose-further-eurofighters-saudi-arabia-2024-01-07/ official, Germany is now ok with Saudi sales
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You beat me by a few minutes...

Reuters

TEL AVIV, Jan 7 (Reuters) - Germany is prepared to allow further deliveries of Eurofighter jets to Saudi Arabia, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said on Sunday.

Berlin halted arms sales to Saudi Arabia following the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in 2018.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz had pushed back against pressure to unblock delivery of Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia. His coalition partner, the Greens, had firmly opposed the move, pointing to human rights concerns and Saudi Arabia's role in the Yemen war.

"We do not see the German government opposing British considerations for more Eurofighters for Saudi Arabia," Baerbock, a Green politician, told reporters on a trip to Israel.

The Eurofighter project is a joint British, German, Italian and Spanish effort.

"The world, especially here in the Middle East, has become a completely different place since Oct. 7," she said, referring to the date Palestinian militant group Hamas attacked Israel.
 
Archibald said:
Realpolitik as usual. Kissinger would have been proud.
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That's hardly a case of realpolitik, quite the opposite. A foreign policy based around Kissinger's realpolitik would have continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia in spite of Kashoggi's dismemberment, or perhaps because of it.
 
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I have trouble seeing any difference between the two. I mean, in both cases MBS gets its Typhoons and Khashoggi is still butchered.

But I don't want to derail that thread into politics... back to Typhoon and Typhoon only.
 
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So time to update the list....

Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon

Ordered or 'due to be...' - On contract in Bold
38 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Still not ordered, has gone quiet.....will the Israel/Palestine/Yemen etc force the issue?
15 x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered.*
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+).
Total - 107 Typhoon * Typhoon EK added in for completeness, but not in the Total as the initial 15 will be conversions of existing aircraft.

Potential Orders...in order of probability...
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Saudi Arabia - Moved to the top as now appears very likely. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. 48 is more likely..
50 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4/5/LTE/EK+ to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German one off budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though...has to be questioned if it reaches as high as 50 though...and what the split is as it may include more EK+
25 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - Potential up to another 25 under a 'Project Halcon III', bumped up the list as rumours from Spain recently have significantly downplayed F-35....perhaps only a small number of F-35B will be ordered if at all.
12 x Typhoon to Qatar - Qatar have an option on an additional 12 a/c from their current contract
24 - 48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Keeps popping up, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' Or 48 Tranche 3A.
24 x Typhoon to Italy - Has been rumoured, and denied, by credible sources...
24 x Typhoon to Poland - Poland appears to want more fighters and Eurofighter have been pitching it heavily...normally you'd assume F-35 would be in the lead, but the Poles don't seem averse to multiple platforms in any domain and they may want cover in case the US gets Trump again...
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese, KF-21 likely frontrunner after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, however that is mired in the usual corruption allegations...
Total - 219-279 x Typhoon

Rumours...old and new - Exceptionally Low Probability

24 x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - With the news of RAF reducing all their T1's to parts this can be ditched...
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a very, very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments and Serbian Government under Vucic.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a exceptionally distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).

A Question...
The RAF is ''Reduce to Produce'ing' all of its Tranche 1 Typhoon. What happens to the Spanish and German Tranche 1's when replaced by Quadriga and Halcon? And the Austrian and Italian Tranche 1's when withdrawn? There could be c100 low mileage (less than half lifetime airframe hours) Typhoon Tranche 1 on the market over the next 6 years, all with some upgrade potential....I've advocated sending them to Ukraine for free, be interesting to see what the users do....will they scrap for parts like RAF? Or sell on? Or gift?

Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 c200 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reach 240 higher than that with a following wind. Any more than that would be a massive bonus....and a big surprise (it certainly won't hit 386 like Ordered and Potential Orders tally to above, but if it got to 240 that would be incredible).
 
AGAIN any aircraft that will now be ordered will be Tranche 4, not Tranche 3. T3 will conclude with the delivery of the last Qatari or Kuwaiti aircraft, which ever comes first. Everything beyond that will expand on the Block 60 baseline standard for Tranche 4!
 
Scorpion82 said:
AGAIN any aircraft that will now be ordered will be Tranche 4, not Tranche 3. T3 will conclude with the delivery of the last Qatari or Kuwaiti aircraft, which ever comes first. Everything beyond that will expand on the Block 60 baseline standard for Tranche 4!
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Ok I'll amend...

You did say that 160 was never going to happen though....
 

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