From what I've heard the Spanish indeed aren't seriously considering the F-35 and have withdrawn their expression of interest and its now Eurofighter (highly likely) or Rafale/Gripen (backup option).
Here's Gareth's thread on that from the other day...

It might be that a Halcon III order is actually a little more likely...

You've still got to think the Spanish will buy F-35B at the least for the Navy though...they'll have to make a decision in the next 2 years if they want to get them by AV-8B retirement.

View: https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1721577775402770701
 
Also maybe kicks Germany in the ass for there own EKs which are repoted to be on hold because F-35 instead is prioritized
If they all worked together on EK (or better still ECR) it would make a lot of sense...not just nationally, or for Typhoon, but for NATO/European defence as a whole. The US would be overjoyed if a decent number of EK/ECR were ordered. It would take any pressure on the EA-18G fleet for European operations completely away...

Spain has its own Eurofighter final assembly line so while it benefits the other countries supply chains who will supply parts it doesn't directly benefit of the Italian, German or British final assembly lines. Italy has a final assembly line for F-35 (along with Japan and two in the US) so it doesnt face the same issue Britain/Germany do about any gap in final assembly eroding skills.

The FACO at Cameri is not seeing a large amount of work at all. Most European operators are getting their F-35 from Fort Worth.

BAE could face a gap at Warton, but the fact they're not pushing it hard with the UK government might be instructive...perhaps they're confident the Saudi order will eventually arrive. But...they have loads more work at Samlesbury (which is a mere 13 miles from Warton) compared to the German, Spanish and Italian EF programmes combined with the F-35 rear fuselage production line located there....
 
If they all worked together on EK (or better still ECR) it would make a lot of sense...not just nationally, or for Typhoon, but for NATO/European defence as a whole. The US would be overjoyed if a decent number of EK/ECR were ordered. It would take any pressure on the EA-18G fleet for European operations completely away...
And that would make a lot of fighter for the production which saves production in the future.
 
I’m very curious how the Typhoon with the AMK kit and uprated engine’s performs. Hope it happens
 
I’m not sure the workshare rules allow for that? « Resale of my allocation » sounds like an attempt to spin a cut in orders.

Pretty much that way. The UK ordered 160 A/C in total and that's it. That the UK MoD formally bought the 72 Saudi planes, before reselling them, was simply owed to the contractual arrangement (government to government). The 24 T2 diversions served the purpose of quick delivery and were meant to be replaced with new build A/C. The happened as part of T3A and the UK effectively ordered only 16 additional A/C. While the UK argued that it fulfilled it's commitment through the Saudi sale, it was a mere trick. It's an export sale and like others.
 
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See also the aerodynamics improvement at the end of the report. Are those the magic wedge at the root of the delta LE?
That, plus the delta strakes in place of the current rectangular strakes and enlarged flaperons.
 
Fixing order numbers in advance doesn't really work if Industry massively varies the cost of development and production. Money into the programme over time is a much more justifiable method than production numbers.
 
Will they or won't they? That is the question I want answered quickly. Would the Typhoon order for the Italian Air Force be a stopgap purchase until the service entry of the GCAP sometime in the 2030s?
 
Will they or won't they? That is the question I want answered quickly. Would the Typhoon order for the Italian Air Force be a stopgap purchase until the service entry of the GCAP sometime in the 2030s?

If, and its a big if, it would serve as a way of keeping skills going and facilities open. At the same time by replacing Italy's T1 Typhoon it could give them a little more leeway on speed of Tempest development and operation.
 
Guys, it's pretty unfair to Germans. Turkey is cooling down their relation with Greece, opening the way for US awaited exports release. Hence, the Typhoon plan B makes no more sense.

German politicians just display here some good tactics, gaining political points for a bargain.
 
Fair bit of Typhoon news....

Despite Ragip's triumphal tone I still see this as a Turkish political ploy to put pressure on the US F-16 deal.

But if they're serious we should do it....with the proviso that Sweden is admitted to NATO. With the German, Austrian and Italian T1's there are still enough to gift to Ukraine...which would be the ideal position (close to 100 T1's from those users). With the proposed Leonardo AESA panel added to the CAPTOR-M backend upgrade it would still be the best (and crucially available) Western A2A platform that could be gifted or sold at low cost to Ukraine in the next 10 years...plus the ongoing maintenance monies from retaining 120+ Tranche 1 Typhoon in service is not to be sniffed at....

As ever it hinges on Germany....

View: https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1725210638161490053

And the saga of the additional Typhoon order for Germany rolls on....Gareth has some interesting detail on the EK development...now if only the UK and Italy could put in an order for EK....massive capability boost for NATO in Europe, probably force Germany's hand, useful even with F-35/GCAP fleets, US would be very happy with reduced demand on EA-18G fleet, freed up fighters for Ukraine, extended production runs and potential sales....nah...it makes too much sense....

View: https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1725170989338660872


View: https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1725170995239989596
 
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Typhoon supposedly did as well....

Germany has previously had to compensate the UK as they did the usual German workshare based on initial orders scam....then cut their orders. Net result is each Typhoon is 45% UK...

After A400 and Typhoon (and others like Tiger) I suspect that anyone fool enough to do a joint programme with Germany will load any contract with that many compensation clauses that even German politician's will balk when they try and block sales/slow the programme/cut orders...or any of the usual stunts...
There were reports that they're even trying to pull the same s... with the F-35 now
 
This is getting beyond a joke, even NATO members are now being blocked. Erdogan has to play to his people, if Germany keep up this crap, Turkey will end up batting for the other team one day.
It has been going on for a long while in the subcomponents department though. It just doesn't make rounds in the global media except for big purchases like F-16 and Typhoon.

Same reason why Turkey replaced the TR40 turbojet engine of SOM Cruise missile with indigenous one or why Atak 2 prototypes use Ukranian engines, etc...

One time they even had to replace the warhead of an ATGM.

That is the reason why nations like S.Korea and Turkey are not putting up with it and are working towards gaining independence.
 
If its gonna be 40 Fighter and turkey finally says yes to swedens entry then we probaly they get Eurofighter. But maybe this is all Just to put pressure on the usa to get F-16
 
Curious - anyone know what is the average airframe hours on the Typhoon/Eurofighters (by country) flying today and what is the design life for the airframes? 20 years since entering service - time flies by fast...

Thanks! Mark
 
Design life is 6,000 flying hours, the RAF Tranche 1 are planned to be withdrawn in 2025 at an estimated average of 2544 flying hours.

I suspect the RAF Tranche 1's have seen more hours than German, Italian, Austrian or Spanish T1's as well...

This is why I keep saying they should go to Ukraine....there is no other Western top end A2A aircraft in the next 10-15 years available in numbers, with a decent service life left in it that is also free/cheap....F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000....all are high hour/clapped out examples...there is also a Tranche 1 upgrade available that makes them competitive for the remainder of their service life and would allow more A2G munitions to be integrated. But even then Asraam, IRIS-T, Amraam, Paveway II and LaGS is enough for the short/medium term. Add in nearby servicing facilities, lots of european service experience, training, simulators etc and it makes far more sense than any potential alternative.
 
I concur for the Mirage 2000s, there are not that many "-5 family" around. And since Indonesia has decided to sweep the few available... As for Rafale, the only F1 standards are the naval ones: the AdA started right at F2 standard, in 2004 (twenty years ago, almost ??!!)

Typhoon for Ukraine would indeed be awesome.
 
I concur for the Mirage 2000s, there are not that many "-5 family" around. And since Indonesia has decided to sweep the few available... As for Rafale, the only F1 standards are the naval ones: the AdA started right at F2 standard, in 2004 (twenty years ago, almost ??!!)

Typhoon for Ukraine would indeed be awesome.

The whole Gripen for Ukraine nonsense is incredible...there just aren't more than a handful lying around.... the Australian F/A-18 are pretty much worn out etc etc.

F-16 from the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway does make sense...but only for a short period of time. Those are old aircraft....

The only thing available that could actually oppose Russian SU-27/30/35 for the foreseeable future is oddly enough the exact aircraft that was designed to do that....and it just so happens to be available in near the perfect numbers from the right countries at the right time for the right price i.e. free....and everyone is ignoring it...
 
Well I dont think Germany is going to be approving any Typhoons for Turkey after that joint news conference with Erdogan and Scholz where he was essentially slagging off Germanys anti-Semitic past and praising Hamas as freedom fighters while standing right next to him.

It was like watching a flashback to Boris as Foreign Secretary.
 
Well I dont think Germany is going to be approving any Typhoons for Turkey after that joint news conference with Erdogan and Scholz where he was essentially slagging off Germanys anti-Semitic past and praising Hamas as freedom fighters while standing right next to him.

It was like watching a flashback to Boris as Foreign Secretary.
Ouch.
View: https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1725571118306640173?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1725571118306640173%7Ctwgr%5E24fe2de9cf7511678ae5866b948e7cba46810f7e%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fdefencehub.live%2Fthreads%2Fturkish-air-force-news-discussion.2740%2Fpage-115


Well it didn't matter anyway since even in the good old days Germans would never allow a sale at the very least without restrictions. For ex when they supplied 2nd hand Leo 2s to Turkey they demanded that they would not be used in the Southeastern region which is totally horsecrap.
 
I heard of weapon bay for EF (similiar to Mig MFK) and wanted to ask if its true this is there / was planed at some point in time or is IT a myth only.
 
Seems to have been mooted very early on (like 2000) as part of the aircrafts evolution (alongside the radar), found an article.

Eurofighter weapons, radar and sensor updates mooted​

13 June 2000

Eurofighter could receive an internal weapons bay as part of future product developments that also includes improved systems and sensors.
4369



Ross Bradley, BAE Systems programme director for Eurofighter/Typhoon, says: "Long- term studies have been done and there are enormous opportunities for derivatives."
Eurofighter is likely to benefit from work done for the UK's Future Offensive Air System (FOAS) which is due to replace the Panavia Tornado in the deep-strike role in around 2020.


The 620 aircraft ordered by Eurofighter's four partner nations will be delivered in batches, each of which will be different, taking advantage of emerging technologies and to meet changing scenarios. Tranche 1 covers 155 aircraft to be delivered from 2002.
FOAS will consider manned aircraft, unmanned combat air vehicles and cruise missiles. Dividing the deep-strike role between diverse systems will reduce the number of aircraft to be acquired, making a derivative of an existing airframe attractive financially.
Manned FOAS studies have considered an internal weapons bay to improve low observability, says Bradley.
The weapons bay would replace a fuel tank. In its place could be conformal tanks on the upper fuselage or fuel in the fin. "We see the FOAS main platform as being Eurofighter," he says.


Other changes to meet the FOAS requirement include additional air-to-ground weapons, an enlarged wing and improved sensors and processing. The latter is likely to concentrate sensor processing in a single computer rather than at each sensor, be it radar, electro-optical or the defence aids subsystem (DASS).
This would "drive costs down", says Bradley. Tranche 3 aircraft will probably have 360° sensor coverage. Definition of tranche 2 aircraft is required by the end of this year while tranche 3 Eurofighters will be delivered in around 2010.


• Germany is expected to rejoin the Eurofighter DASS programme in the next few weeks, acquiring the same DASS configuration as Italy and Spain. The UK has the same equipment but also integrates a laser warning system. The Germany "entrance fee" to rejoin the programme will be used to fund DASS enhancements.


FOAS seems to have evolved into a UK drone project that was then cancelled and replaced by F-35 combined with the Anglo-French drone programme that produced the Taranis/Neuron then that was cancelled and evolved into Tempest/GCAP.
 
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Türkiye Requests Latest Configuration Eurofighter Typhoon
Minister of National Defense Yaşar GÜLER will meet with his counterpart, United Kingdom Minister of Defense Grant SHAPPS, who came to Ankara as his official guest today. At the meeting, where bilateral and regional defense and security and defense industry cooperation issues will be discussed, the issue of Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft procurement, which Turkey is interested in, is also on the agenda of today's program. According to defense sources, the purchase of second-hand aircraft is not considered for the Eurofighter Typhoon procurement. Turkey has a request to purchase the latest configuration of the Eurofighter, with a total of 40 aircraft in two packages of 20+20.
https://x.com/DefenceTurkey/status/1727612882098041309?s=20
 
Even beyond the politics of a deal the question also remains about whether Turkey can afford new rather than second hand fighters, just today their central bank has raised their interest rate by 500 basis points (5%) to 40% while inflation is 61% last month and the currency has lost 80% of its value during the last five years, 35% this year.
 
Even beyond the politics of a deal the question also remains about whether Turkey can afford new rather than second hand fighters, just today their central bank has raised their interest rate by 500 basis points (5%) to 40% while inflation is 61% last month and the currency has lost 80% of its value during the last five years, 35% this year.
Turkey's current defence spending is well under NATO's 2% goal. It is also developing a heavy 5th gen fighter and two LO wingman drones. Aside from the aerial domain, it is currently a prototype heaven when it comes to defence industry.

Now could you explain to us with your logic how does it do this for two decades straight without 1) increasing the budget and 2) going bankrupt?

How does it manage to field one of the largest armies of the NATO, buy expensive toys and become a prototype heaven?

All the while being basically surrounded by conflicts from all sides?

Truth be told you're neither the first nor the last guy to mention Turkey's economical problems.

(P.S. the country hasn't made any large-scale procurements from abroad in 20 years except the T214 submarines. I also don't consider the whole S400 deal to be large enough)
 
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Exactly, most of Turkeys procurement has been domestic (80% according to official figures) with which is mostly free of currency exchange issues. Its defence spending has been squeezed by the economic problems, historically its averaged 3.5%, between 2005 and 2017 it fell to an average of 2.2%, was boosted up to 2.5% in 2018 and 2.7% in 2019 before plummeting to 1.9% in 2021 and 1.2% last year. In financial terms its mostly been static at around $17-19bn give or take for the last 15 years so gradually falling in real terms with inflation until 2019 when spending was cut to $15bn. To accommodate this foreign procurement its allocated $40bn of defence spending in 2024, a 150% budget increase. How it will pay for a 150% budget increase is questionable in June it had a net -$5.7bn of liquid foreign currency reserves after a $100bn per year spending spree to try and prop up the Lira (Central Bank policy was to buy back 40% by value of each foreign currency trade), after the election in May Turkey stopped trying to support its currency and by Aug the reserves had recovered slightly to $15.8bn. However it remains in a position where it is unable to finance tens of billions of foreign purchases.
 
To accommodate this foreign procurement its allocated $40bn of defence spending in 2024, a 150% budget increase.
That amount includes the allocated budgets of each Turkish sec. branches, i.e. the Police, the Gendarmerie, etc. also have their respective shares in that. So there isn't a big difference compared to previous years' budgets.

Also, which currency do you think the manufacturers use to buy subcomponents?

(I'll reply with a longer response once I can find the necessary time to sit back and read everything you wrote, sorry for currently being unable to do that)
RDT_20231123_1731177156421471712478380.jpg
 
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