Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

Just an interesting picture:

001226997_896x598_c.png
 
Maybe four used Rafale M (at first) soon for Indian Navy :

www.theweek.in

France mulling sale of used Rafale jets to Indian Navy: Report

Rafale Marine underwent trials in Goa earlier this year
www.theweek.in www.theweek.in

The race to sell a new aircraft carrier-based fighter jet to the Indian Navy is heating up. Last week, US manufacturer Boeing announced it would be deploying two F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet fighters to an Indian Navy test facility in Goa for flight trials.
On Wednesday, French media outlet La Tribune reported the French government has been studying “for several months” the sale of four used 'Rafale Marine' jets to the Indian Navy.
(...)
The Rafale Marine and Super Hornet are considered the front-runners to win a contract that would involve supply of up to 57 jets to the Indian Navy. These jets would primarily operate off the aircraft carrier Vikrant, which is currently undergoing sea trials.
La Tribune reported France had been studying the sale of used Rafale Marine jets to gain an edge to win the larger contract from the Indian Navy.
(...)
La Tribune claimed India could decide to buy up to 26 new naval fighters by the end of the year. The La Tribune report comes days before Prime Minister Narendra Modi is scheduled to visit France.
(...)
Click to expand...

As usual : to be confirmed...
 
(As a back story of the Great Aircraft Bazaar news):

La Direction générale de l’armement (DGA) a notifié le 25 avril 2022 à la société Thales la commande de 21 nacelles Talios supplémentaires, portant ainsi à 67 la cible de l’opération d’armement « Pod de désignation laser nouvelle génération » (PDL NG). Cette commande, d’un montant de cent millions d’euros, inclut un complément en moyens de soutien initial. Elle s’inscrit dans le cadre de l’utilisation des ressources extrabudgétaires générées par la cession à la Croatie, fin 2021, d’avions Rafale provenant du parc de l’armée de l’Air et de l’Espace.
----------------------------------------//----------------------------------

On April 25, 2022, the Directorate General for Armaments (DGA) notified Thales of the order for 21 additional Talios pods, thus bringing the target of the “New generation laser designation pod” inventory to 67 ( PDL NG). This order, worth one hundred million euros, includes additional initial support resources. It is part of the use of extrabudgetary resources generated by the transfer to Croatia, at the end of 2021, of Rafale aircraft from the Air and Space Force fleet.
Click to expand...

 
Rafale outputs for 2022 were said to be impacted by recurring strikes running among Dassault's personels but their impact were difficult to gauge. Here comes a little bit more of information with a said 4 fold reduction (strike should be over by now):

La production de Rafale a été divisée par quatre
Un conflit qui a eu des conséquences sur la production. « On sortait deux Rafale par mois, là en quatre mois on en a sorti deux. La production a été divisée par quatre. »

Selon le syndicaliste, « c’est la seule et unique raison » de l’obtention de cette hausse salariale. « Ils voulaient absolument que la production reprenne ».
------------------------------------//-----------------------------------

Rafale production divided by four
A [social] conflict that had some consequences on production. “We use to deliver two Rafales per month, now in four months we have released only two. Production has been divided by four. »

According to the trade unionist, "this is the one and only reason" for obtaining this salary increase. "They absolutely wanted production to resume."
Click to expand...

Dassault Aviation delivered 25 Rafale fighters to export customers in 2021, compared to 13 in 2020 (Source AvWeek). So we are probably going to be back on that 2020 number, factoring-in mitigation measures unveiled earlier (see one of my earlier post). Let's hope that no AdlAE Rafale would be used to complete the foreign customer backlogs that time.


actu.fr

Argenteuil. Après 17 semaines de conflit, fin de la grève chez Dassault Aviation

Les salariés non-cadres ont obtenu, entre autres, une augmentation de salaire de 140 euros brut par mois.
actu.fr actu.fr
 
Last edited:
helmutkohl said:
two Rafales collided in mid-air
fortunately both were able to land, no one hurt

www.charentelibre.fr

Deux Rafale du meeting aérien entrent en collision: dégâts et grosse panique à Gensac-la-Pallue.

Deux avions Rafale se sont touchés en plein vol lors de la démonstration aérienne sur la base 709 de Cognac-Châteaubernard ce dimanche 22 mai. Les débris ont endommagé une habitation à Gensac-la-Pallue, sans faire de blessés.
www.charentelibre.fr www.charentelibre.fr
Click to expand...

Clipped off the RWR from top of tail?
 
siegecrossbow said:
helmutkohl said:
two Rafales collided in mid-air
fortunately both were able to land, no one hurt

www.charentelibre.fr

Deux Rafale du meeting aérien entrent en collision: dégâts et grosse panique à Gensac-la-Pallue.

Deux avions Rafale se sont touchés en plein vol lors de la démonstration aérienne sur la base 709 de Cognac-Châteaubernard ce dimanche 22 mai. Les débris ont endommagé une habitation à Gensac-la-Pallue, sans faire de blessés.
www.charentelibre.fr www.charentelibre.fr
Click to expand...

Clipped off the RWR from top of tail?
Click to expand...
looks like it

specifically it matches the tail of this Lorraine scheme Rafale
279179458_3203341109878315_1723179440734683058_n-yYEKd31.jpg
 
More pictures, including mid-air.
 

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"ah ben c'est sur, il va beaucoup moins bien marcher maintenant". Wonder if the pilots were Bourvil and De Funès ?
 
siegecrossbow said:
TomcatViP said:
Landing with that folded canard must have been sporty. I wonder how the FBW logic did handle this. Is there a video of the landing?
Click to expand...

Rafale has two engines. They could work around the bent canard by varying the thrust of the two engines.
Click to expand...
Easily said though not always as easy to implement in practice at the time.
 
I am now thinking at the passive canard mode where the FBW isn't anymore driving the canard but let if freely flow in the airstream. I am not sure if early Rafale has it, but definitively, that becoming a popular item following the Gripen crash during an airshow in Sweden, I am pretty sure that Dassault implemented it, if it had not already.

If that mode was indeed activated, either by pilot action or BFW logic, then landing would have been more easy with the remaining ctrl surfaces reacting only in function of the induced load (= (mainly) asymmetry).
 
Supposedly ,there is a French video talking about Rafale RCS
Around 31.0 of this this video Bruno Revellin Falcoz , former Dassault Aviation vice president, says that Rafale SER " is that of a sparrow".
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, the account posted that video has been deleted. Do anyone have the other link to that video?
There is also some claim which say Rafale RCS =1/10 or 1/20 that of Mirage. Do anyone have the source for that?
 
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Head on, perhaps. Once you move 10/20 degrees to the left or right then the vertical slab would cause it to balloon. This isn't even accounting for external load.
 
I suspect the Rafale has very good RCS for its generation but not necessarily enought to stand out drastically (as I understand it RCS is mostly significant as orders of magnitude rather then mild percentages, though every bit helps)

For example the RDI/RDY is more powerful then the base apg-68. Rbe2 (PESA) is described as roughly similar in detection range. Greek F-16s us the extended range Apg-68v9 giving it rough parity.

Now in this article (translation from an old Key.aero post) we see Hellenic F-16s do well in BVR against F1 and F2 Rafale aircraft. I don’t think this would be possible if the Rafale was a drastic outlier in RCS. Rather it’s more likely similar to HAVE GLASS, block 40, or the XL.

On the 4vs4 encounter between CdG Rafale and F16 B52+.
This time the french aircrafts also used the trainning function of Spectra, in mild jamming mode, which were immediately detected from the greek aircrafts ECCM, which reply automatically with no pilot input.

The BVR tactics used by the French didn't impress, while they reported all virtual shots as kills.But without wanting to go into detail, observing the route of the target in relation with the lock on it, keeping time (counting) in relation with the virtual launch, the greek pilots managed to arrive to safe conclusions. This time, the majority of the greek shots were inside the "no escape" envelope of AMRAAM, which gave clear advantage to the greek side. The tactic of using data link, where 2 different radars could lock onto 4 aircrafts, taking advantage of the function that the new aircraft gives, made obvious in practice the advantages of the new F16 version. With special tactics planned by our pilots, in quite some cases, they were approaching unobserved opposite to the french aircrafts, a fact that was shown by their reactions.

The success of the greek aircrafts against the Rafale M was afterwards confirmed by comparing the shot reports of the French with the F16 videos, where it was shown that most shots were of low Pk (kill probability).

As a general conclusion, one may say that any Rafale's superiority, in the above scenarios, is marginal, with high kill percentage for the greek side. Also it should be noted that in that period of time, the CdG was cooperating with a greek EMB-145H Erieye with the aim to evaluate the interoperability of the 2 sides. More in detail Link 11 and Link 16 were tested. From the time of take-off from Elefsis airfield, within 10 minutes the greek aircraft had established contact with the french carrier, certifying capability of cooperation in network-centered operations for both sides.

Aegean Gust.

4 Rafale F2 B, 1 Rafale F2 C.

The recent excercise wasn't the first occasion for a HAF squadron to counter the Rafale. In 2006 the Rafale M from CdG partecipated in excercises with F16block52+ and F4E AUP. But the Rafale M of the time, were F1, a version centered in air-to-air role with somewhat limited capabilities. In the Aegean Gust partecipated Rafale F2, with improved air to air capabilities, including the data link between aircrafts of a formation, combined with FSO and data fusion...

... Both greek and french pilots flew as backseaters in each other planes. As for the engagements:

4 sorties occured in the morning and 3 in the evening of Tuesday in 2 vs 2 scenarios, in BVR. The greek aircrafts were B52+. On Wednesday 8 sorties with Rafale B in 2 waves (morning, evening), with the partecipation of 1 french pilot and 4 greek backseaters. This time it was 4 vs 4. The greek aircrafts were B52+, B50D, B30.
Something that appeared strange to the greek pilots, was that while according to the HAF policy the pilots were doing the last pre-takeoff check of their planes (Leak check), the French pilots were taking position on the runway without doing so.

The impressions of the greek pilots were variable, as is natural , and their observations quite interesting. The whole of the greek F16 pilots, found the cockpit particularly functional, although a bit small, as is used in all french aircrafts. Also, the best impressions left the glass cockpit advanced disposition. It is known that the high operational output of the Rafale is result of high performance, excellent behaviour and friendly MMI that adopts to the high workload in multirole missions. The existance of so many displays and the characteristical absense of analog instruments, was natural to make a big impression to the greek pilots, who apart the Falcon's MFDs, are used to analog instruments. Some in fact, told us that they would feel more comfortable, if some analog instruments have been kept as backups in cases of malfunction or failiure of the electric system. Of course it is certain that safety valves has been thought, while evolution indicates that full glass cockpit will dominate in the future, as will happen in the case of F35 too.

It is also natural to be impressed by the high situation awareness provided by the Rafale thanks to data fusion. The Rafale, as the greek pilots had the chance to see, can receive tracking data from RBE2, Spectra, OSF, IFF, MICA IR sensors and accompanying aircrafts, ground command and control facilities and AWACS, elaborate them and produce system tracking data (system tracks). These are superior to quality compared to the single data of the individual sensors. This data is then used for fire control and is shown in the central tactical display and can be transmitted to fellow aircrafts. So, at a glance at the tactical display, the pilots can see the position of targets that may be inside the radar cone or outside and even in the rear hemisphere, no matter if the radar is on or off!

Also, it was verified that OSF provides advantage in air combat. As the greek pilots observed, once the target is locked from the radar, its image is then displayed in the central display which facilitates very much the target identification even in great distances.A similar function is provided in the F16 by the Lantirn Pod in air to air mode, with the difference that the backseater can make a search independent of the radar. On the contrary on the Rafale, the OSF is primarily slaved on the radar.

The best of impressions left to the greek pilots the performace of the Rafale's self protection suite, confirming the french reputation in the sector since the time that HAF operated the ICMS2000 in the Mirage2000.

Small reprimands were made to some small but important details, like the fact of the abscense of a countdown timer in the HUD when a BVR missile is flying towards its target. The greek F16 pilots are used to such an indicator on the lower left of the HUD, indicating the "Time On Target" of the Amraam and the time remaining until the Amraam's autonomous seeker is activated. If the missile fails tracking, then the indication "Loose" appears over the locked target on the HUD and the pilot is aware that the shot has failed. Something like this wasn't found on the Rafale, leading to a difficulty in the interpretation of the BVR shots during the engagements. And this, because the French were regarding that after a certain range , a MICA shot was always successful. As a result, the arrival to safe conclusions, was problematic.

Beyond that, it was also commented positively the agility of the Rafale. Of course the greek pilots still think of the F16 as a particularly capable aircraft in dogfight.
In the air, the Rafale is very agile, but for the greek pilots the sense of flying was very different from that of the F16. It was commented as perfectly stable, with very good response in all speeds and manouvers. Very good impressions were also left by the automatic pilot as well as the ability of maintaining very low speed during approach, prior to landing.

... The Rafale certainly proved that it is a very capable aircraft in the hands of the excellently trainned french pilots who have battle experience. The encounter with F16s, gave the greek pilots the opportunity to measure the F16 capabilities against a 4th gen aircraft, while it showed yet another time that the level of HAF pilots is one of the best in NATO airforces.
Click to expand...
www.key.aero

Rafale News V

Read before flight : Please, keep this thread as clean as possible.This is a rafale news thread, so only news about the rafale are accepted here.This is not a rafale vs eurofighter thread nor Dassault vs Bae thread.if you don't want to follow the 3 rules above, feel free to create your own...
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F-2 said:
I suspect the Rafale has very good RCS for its generation but not necessarily enought to stand out drastically (as I understand it RCS is mostly significant as orders of magnitude rather then mild percentages, though every bit helps)

For example the RDI/RDY is more powerful then the base apg-68. Rbe2 (PESA) is described as roughly similar in detection range. Greek F-16s us the extended range Apg-68v9 giving it rough parity.

Now in this article (translation from an old Key.aero post) we see Hellenic F-16s do well in BVR against F1 and F2 Rafale aircraft. I don’t think this would be possible if the Rafale was a drastic outlier in RCS. Rather it’s more likely similar to HAVE GLASS, block 40, or the XL.

On the 4vs4 encounter between CdG Rafale and F16 B52+.
This time the french aircrafts also used the trainning function of Spectra, in mild jamming mode, which were immediately detected from the greek aircrafts ECCM, which reply automatically with no pilot input.

The BVR tactics used by the French didn't impress, while they reported all virtual shots as kills.But without wanting to go into detail, observing the route of the target in relation with the lock on it, keeping time (counting) in relation with the virtual launch, the greek pilots managed to arrive to safe conclusions. This time, the majority of the greek shots were inside the "no escape" envelope of AMRAAM, which gave clear advantage to the greek side. The tactic of using data link, where 2 different radars could lock onto 4 aircrafts, taking advantage of the function that the new aircraft gives, made obvious in practice the advantages of the new F16 version. With special tactics planned by our pilots, in quite some cases, they were approaching unobserved opposite to the french aircrafts, a fact that was shown by their reactions.

The success of the greek aircrafts against the Rafale M was afterwards confirmed by comparing the shot reports of the French with the F16 videos, where it was shown that most shots were of low Pk (kill probability).

As a general conclusion, one may say that any Rafale's superiority, in the above scenarios, is marginal, with high kill percentage for the greek side. Also it should be noted that in that period of time, the CdG was cooperating with a greek EMB-145H Erieye with the aim to evaluate the interoperability of the 2 sides. More in detail Link 11 and Link 16 were tested. From the time of take-off from Elefsis airfield, within 10 minutes the greek aircraft had established contact with the french carrier, certifying capability of cooperation in network-centered operations for both sides.

Aegean Gust.

4 Rafale F2 B, 1 Rafale F2 C.

The recent excercise wasn't the first occasion for a HAF squadron to counter the Rafale. In 2006 the Rafale M from CdG partecipated in excercises with F16block52+ and F4E AUP. But the Rafale M of the time, were F1, a version centered in air-to-air role with somewhat limited capabilities. In the Aegean Gust partecipated Rafale F2, with improved air to air capabilities, including the data link between aircrafts of a formation, combined with FSO and data fusion...

... Both greek and french pilots flew as backseaters in each other planes. As for the engagements:

4 sorties occured in the morning and 3 in the evening of Tuesday in 2 vs 2 scenarios, in BVR. The greek aircrafts were B52+. On Wednesday 8 sorties with Rafale B in 2 waves (morning, evening), with the partecipation of 1 french pilot and 4 greek backseaters. This time it was 4 vs 4. The greek aircrafts were B52+, B50D, B30.
Something that appeared strange to the greek pilots, was that while according to the HAF policy the pilots were doing the last pre-takeoff check of their planes (Leak check), the French pilots were taking position on the runway without doing so.

The impressions of the greek pilots were variable, as is natural , and their observations quite interesting. The whole of the greek F16 pilots, found the cockpit particularly functional, although a bit small, as is used in all french aircrafts. Also, the best impressions left the glass cockpit advanced disposition. It is known that the high operational output of the Rafale is result of high performance, excellent behaviour and friendly MMI that adopts to the high workload in multirole missions. The existance of so many displays and the characteristical absense of analog instruments, was natural to make a big impression to the greek pilots, who apart the Falcon's MFDs, are used to analog instruments. Some in fact, told us that they would feel more comfortable, if some analog instruments have been kept as backups in cases of malfunction or failiure of the electric system. Of course it is certain that safety valves has been thought, while evolution indicates that full glass cockpit will dominate in the future, as will happen in the case of F35 too.

It is also natural to be impressed by the high situation awareness provided by the Rafale thanks to data fusion. The Rafale, as the greek pilots had the chance to see, can receive tracking data from RBE2, Spectra, OSF, IFF, MICA IR sensors and accompanying aircrafts, ground command and control facilities and AWACS, elaborate them and produce system tracking data (system tracks). These are superior to quality compared to the single data of the individual sensors. This data is then used for fire control and is shown in the central tactical display and can be transmitted to fellow aircrafts. So, at a glance at the tactical display, the pilots can see the position of targets that may be inside the radar cone or outside and even in the rear hemisphere, no matter if the radar is on or off!

Also, it was verified that OSF provides advantage in air combat. As the greek pilots observed, once the target is locked from the radar, its image is then displayed in the central display which facilitates very much the target identification even in great distances.A similar function is provided in the F16 by the Lantirn Pod in air to air mode, with the difference that the backseater can make a search independent of the radar. On the contrary on the Rafale, the OSF is primarily slaved on the radar.

The best of impressions left to the greek pilots the performace of the Rafale's self protection suite, confirming the french reputation in the sector since the time that HAF operated the ICMS2000 in the Mirage2000.

Small reprimands were made to some small but important details, like the fact of the abscense of a countdown timer in the HUD when a BVR missile is flying towards its target. The greek F16 pilots are used to such an indicator on the lower left of the HUD, indicating the "Time On Target" of the Amraam and the time remaining until the Amraam's autonomous seeker is activated. If the missile fails tracking, then the indication "Loose" appears over the locked target on the HUD and the pilot is aware that the shot has failed. Something like this wasn't found on the Rafale, leading to a difficulty in the interpretation of the BVR shots during the engagements. And this, because the French were regarding that after a certain range , a MICA shot was always successful. As a result, the arrival to safe conclusions, was problematic.

Beyond that, it was also commented positively the agility of the Rafale. Of course the greek pilots still think of the F16 as a particularly capable aircraft in dogfight.
In the air, the Rafale is very agile, but for the greek pilots the sense of flying was very different from that of the F16. It was commented as perfectly stable, with very good response in all speeds and manouvers. Very good impressions were also left by the automatic pilot as well as the ability of maintaining very low speed during approach, prior to landing.

... The Rafale certainly proved that it is a very capable aircraft in the hands of the excellently trainned french pilots who have battle experience. The encounter with F16s, gave the greek pilots the opportunity to measure the F16 capabilities against a 4th gen aircraft, while it showed yet another time that the level of HAF pilots is one of the best in NATO airforces.
Click to expand...
www.key.aero

Rafale News V

Read before flight : Please, keep this thread as clean as possible.This is a rafale news thread, so only news about the rafale are accepted here.This is not a rafale vs eurofighter thread nor Dassault vs Bae thread.if you don't want to follow the 3 rules above, feel free to create your own...
www.key.aero www.key.aero
Click to expand...
Could that be they both have band pass radome?
The 4:14 section of this video sound like the GD radome for F-16 is bandpass one
 
Interesting reflection around Plan B: a vastly modernized Rafale coupled with something like a Neuron.
meta-defense.fr

SCAF ou pas, le couple Super-Rafale Neuron proposé par Dassault devrait être développé

Comme il est de coutume au début de l'été, les salons de l'armement se sont multipliés ces dernières semaines, avec Eurosatory en France dédié aux armements
meta-defense.fr meta-defense.fr

What matters the most here is the beginning of an understanding of something really important to me since almost a decade now: there is no way Dassault Aviation can wait to introduce the SCAF soldering on the Rafale alone.

Either their customer will pick one or another 4.5 or 5th Gen offer on the market, either the French state will have to exacerbate its bargaining diplomacy to push for some more sales (but what's left?).

Here the idea developed is to create a Rafale NG (called by the author the Super Rafale).
Sadly, nothing transformational is to be expected from that. The Rafale was already a Super Mirage and the formula as lived through, aging badly.

What a Super Rafale could be, if you reflect a minute on the recent progress in airframe design and what many 4.5th fighters are, is to let go the dead end Rafale formula (inlets, canard, single vertical and mini-nose, pure delta) and re-use all the systems (upgraded) in a new carbon shell with an open road to good stealth, good dynamic performances and Alpha.

That only can ensure an economy of scale b/w the Raf and the Sur-Raf but also with the loyal wingman drones that will operate in tandem.
 
Last edited:
red admiral said:
Repackaging Rafale into a more stealthy looking airframe gets you a KF-21 5-10 years later?
Click to expand...

Repackaging Rafale (the future F5 variant) into a stealthier airframe sounds like a wonderful idea to me.

Should be much lower risk to separate the systems from the airframes (as the systems can continue to evolve through spiral upgrades). The airframes can be ready in ~10 years (~5 years for the demo program + ~5 years for the prototypes/pre-production aircraft). That timing would coincide perfectly with the F5 systems development.

That would give you an advanced multirole NGF « F1 », which could then evolve over time with new systems, AI and all the fancy robot warfare ideas that are far from ready for prime time.

Not that different conceptually from the Mirage F1’s early days (vs. Mirage III) or the early Mirage 2000 RDMs (vs. Mirage F1).
 
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Now that's an interesting debate ! Let me throw my two cents into this. Take a pair of F414 turbofans. Designed around them are a) the Superbug and b) the KF-21. We all agree that one looks like a 2022 miniature F-22 when the other is a vintage 1995 enlarged Hornet. But at core, they have the same pair of engines.

Now, follow my reasoning.

If a pair of F414 can "transition" from Super Hornet to KF-21 - from Hornet shaped airframe to F-22 shaped airframe, if you prefer - then why couldn't a pair of M88 follow the same path ?

Bottom line: keep the pair of medium turbofans, throws the 1990's design non stealth airframe around them and... start all over again around the pair of turbofan: just design a miniature, french F-22 around them... as did the South Koreans around that pair of F414.

Hey folks: also applies to EJ200 if that Tempest UK-Italy-Sweden-Japan project goes nowhere...

Bottom line: keep your engines, throw the airframe around them, wrap a miniature F-22 around them instead.

I would say - why not ? Let's all play that South Korean textbook. They were smart.

For France, it would be far less expensive than starting all over again, and oversized, as per SCAF. Remember that the naval SCAF big beast of aircraft (NATF !) is driving PA-NG size and tonnage through the roof.

As if France could afford a pair of nuclear-powered Forrestals / Kitty Hawk carriers... not in 2005 with a CDG clone; not in 2012 even with the British paying the Q.E bill; not today; not in 2040 or 2060. Unfortunately, we are no China or India (and even India has difficulty moving ahead with its carrier program, even with a 20 times larger taxpayer base (68 million per 20 = 1.36 billion people)
 
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I'm confident Dassault can throw SCAF under a bus and pull out a third generation Mirage 4000 or 2nd generation Rafale: except the shape of a miniature F-22 & the size of a KF-21, around a pair of upgraded M88s (it has been twenty years or more SNECMA has proposed a 9 tons thrust+ M88: the growth potential has been there since Methuslah).

The South Koreans have done it (mostly) from scratch with only the A/T-50 experience before. Dassault has tons more experience.

Frack, the Chinese with the J-20 have "proven" that you can go stealth with that plain old Eurocanard shape of Griffon / Viggen / 4000 legacy: canard in front, delta wing. Who said canards suck for stealth ? kwack kwack, coin coin
 
H_K said:
Repackaging Rafale (the future F5 variant) into a stealthier airframe sounds like a wonderful idea to me.
Click to expand...
I can see it being considered for the reasons you say.

But the main issues are going to be around internal payload capacity vs air vehicle performance trade offs as we can see with KF-21

And not renewing the internals is probably goodbye to all those 2nd and 3rd line sub-contractors
 
red admiral said:
H_K said:
Repackaging Rafale (the future F5 variant) into a stealthier airframe sounds like a wonderful idea to me.
Click to expand...
I can see it being considered for the reasons you say.

But the main issues are going to be around internal payload capacity vs air vehicle performance trade offs as we can see with KF-21

And not renewing the internals is probably goodbye to all those 2nd and 3rd line sub-contractors
Click to expand...

Let's take 4*Meteor as basis. They must fit (staggered side by side or vertically ?) inside a missile bay - because stealth, obviously.

Next to be shoehorned into that airframe are a pair of M88-4, each with 9 tons of thrust.

How large would such aircraft need to be ? With 4*Meteors it would have one heck of a long range firepower. Magic 2 are gone, MICA I don't know whether they are necessary or not. We know that internal guns are compatible with stealth, so Dassault should be relieved in that regard. Semi-stealth Rafales could then play the role of F-15EX.

Meteor surely is no small missile. Imagine if some kind of Rafale derivative had to grow large enough to "swallow" 2 or 4 of them, inside a missile bay... 3.65 m long and 200 kg of missile, *4.

rafale-meteor-20210305.jpg


Dassault_Rafale.gif


Can we shoehorn a 4*Meteor missiles bay inside a derivate of this ? Drats, a Meteor missile is as long as a M88 jet engine ! Interesting. Luckily the missile is lighter and of a smaller diameter !

en.wikipedia.org

Snecma M88 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

  • Length: 353.8 cm (139.3 in)
  • Diameter: 69.6 cm (27.4 in)
Click to expand...

en.wikipedia.org

Meteor (missile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Mass190 kg (419 lb)[2]
Length3.65 m (12 ft 0 in)[3]
Diameter0.178 m (7.0 in)
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Now I can see why all those stealth fighters have well-spaced engines and air intakes in that position. They need to get out of the way to make some room inside the belly for a large missile bay. I would say - cutting a Rafale in two halves by the centerline, add a Tomcat-like middle-body to push the engines and intakes on the "flanks" - and shoehorn a missile bay just behind the cockpit. But too large frontal area is bad for stealth...
 
Archibald said:
Let's take 4*Meteor as basis. They must fit (staggered side by side or vertically ?) inside a missile bay - because stealth, obviously.
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I would imagine the AdlA/MN have a requirement to fit at least one ASMP missile or its successor plus a couple of AAMs internally.

Archibald said:
But too large frontal area is bad for stealth...
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It's bad for drag, not for stealth. See the F-35 about that... *runs for cover*.
 
The ASMP is (quite logically) even longer than a Meteor. That one will stay "outside" even if that spoil stealth...
 
I think the strategic nuclear mission is the one where you want stealth the most. The known concepts at least look like they could carry one large missile in a centerline weapon bay.
 
Archibald said:
The ASMP is (quite logically) even longer than a Meteor. That one will stay "outside" even if that spoil stealth...
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Tandem bays (à la F-23A) with removable middle separation. So 4 Meteor in 2+2 (or even 3+3 with AIM-120) in standard configuration, or a ASMPA for strike.

Damned, time to start a speculative Rafale 2 thread. ;)
 

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