Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

Manuducati

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One potential and (relatively) simple solution hasn't been publicly envisioned to my knowledge...

As the Rafale is already in service in India, has some advantages over the Super Hornet (smaller spotting factor, passive sensors, commonality with Indian Air Force) and as that country is planning to build its own carrier based fighter in the coming years (well you know, in Indian time ;)) - by the way VERY inspired by the Rafale - why don't they "just" develop a specific, folding, outer wing? Of relatively small size, outside of the outer hardpoint, would fit the lift with a comfortable margin, even with wingtip missiles fitted, at the cost of a small fuel loss and a slightly increased structural weight (partially compensated by the lower fuel weight?).

Yes it would cost some money and time to develop, but would provide first-hand experience to India. France could lease a dozen standard Rafale M in the meantime. How does that sound?
 

helmutkohl

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I still have my doubts about TEDBF.. the expense of developing a brand new fighter, whose market is just the Indian Navy. Spending billions on just for 50 or less aircraft?

it would be better to just navalize the AMCA or Tejas Mk2 if they don't want to go for the Rafale.

Also which would be more practical. Modifying the Rafale to have folding wings.. or modifying the elevators?
My estimates for the Vikrant show that the Rafale can fit in the elevators with out any modification.
However modifications have to be done for the Rafale to fit in the Vikramaditya. But it seems that they've already enlarged one of its two elevators in the past. Could they enlarge it further?
 

Manuducati

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H_K

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We now have the serial numbers of the first 6 used Rafales bought by Greece.

Serial No / Year delivered
B305 / 2004
B306 / 2005
C103 / 2005
C112 / 2009
C118 / 2010
C123 / 2010

Source: www.deltareflex.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=139&start=1710

Average age ~14 years. So these are some of the oldest Rafales, with almost half of their nominal 30yr service life already used up. Given the typical 240-250 flight hours per year in French service, they should have used up roughly 3,500hrs of their nominal 7,000hr service life (on average), though an extension to 9,000hrs may be possible.

The second batch of 6 used Rafales will be delivered in the 2nd half of the year or early 2023.
 
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Deltafan

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The article in the French weekly La Tribune is confirmed by the specialist defense journalist that @stealthflanker recommended to us a few months ago. Only official confirmation remains. Maybe tomorrow (European time) with the presence of the French Minister of Defense in Indonesia.
It remains to know the terms of payment: if it is palm oil, it is possible that in France there will be a campaign against this sale on the part of part of the opposition (ecologists in particular ) and media...

View: https://twitter.com/AHelvas/status/1491316776365625344?s=20&t=T_Kt2TsMLiskpZhc9uPaJA
 
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helmutkohl

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can IRIS-T be integrated on the Rafale?
If so.. then Indonesia's KF-21 and Rafales can share their Meteor and Iris-T missiles
 

Deltafan

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can IRIS-T be integrated on the Rafale?
If so.. then Indonesia's KF-21 and Rafales can share their Meteor and Iris-T missiles
Never heard of, or read, for the moment, that an integration of the Irist-T on the Rafale was actually planned.
 

Archibald

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Oh boy, Rafales and KF-21s: the Indonesian air force will surely look sexy as freck.
And how long will they remain airworthy...?

I'm not paying the bill, so why should I care ? More seriously, France needs every single export billion it can scrounge off, considering the present abyssal trade deficit and debt...
 

TomcatViP

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Statistically then, MoD Parly should better use her time sustaining better her other colleagues:

The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in French global shipments during 2020. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from France.

Machinery including computers: US$54.5 billion (11.5% of total exports)
Vehicles: $44.3 billion (9.3%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $38.8 billion (8.1%)
Pharmaceuticals: $37.9 billion (8%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $29.2 billion (6.1%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $19.3 billion (4.1%)
Perfumes, cosmetics: $17.9 billion (3.8%)
Beverages, spirits, vinegar: $17.5 billion (3.7%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $16.1 billion (3.4%)
Other chemical goods: $12.8 billion (2.7%)
France’s top 10 export categories accounted for 60.6% of the overall value of its global shipments.

 

stealthflanker

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Well, our arms procurement is unfortunately opportunistic.. so yeah there will be time KF-21 and Rafale may fly together..

Readiness and such tho might be in concern. Would expect like 50-60% of them will fly all the time while the others are under maintenance. There will also be one which become a spare part source for the others.
 

stealthflanker

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aonestudio

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helmutkohl

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interesting so 42!
that means life time exports
Rafale - 272
Mirage 2000 - 277
(these both include the export of used French aircraft as well).

Rafale is on track to export more aircraft than its predecessor
 

Flyaway

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Wonder what type of defence satellite it is. You can bet whatever it is the launch contract will go to Ariane.
 

Deltafan

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For its part, the Iraqi Air Force is seeking French Rafale fighter jets. In September 2021, the chairman of the Security and Defense Committee of Iraq’s parliament, Mohammed Redha al-Haidar, revealed Iraq and Paris signed a contract for the aircraft.
“The Iraqi Air Force is intending to purchase 14 French Rafale fighter jets at a cost of $240 million, which will be paid in oil rather than cash,” Ricklefs told Defense News about the deal.

As usual: to be confirmed...
 

stealthflanker

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That's quite a while. Tho it shows that weapons procurement takes time. and sometime a very long time.


 

Archibald

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For its part, the Iraqi Air Force is seeking French Rafale fighter jets. In September 2021, the chairman of the Security and Defense Committee of Iraq’s parliament, Mohammed Redha al-Haidar, revealed Iraq and Paris signed a contract for the aircraft.
“The Iraqi Air Force is intending to purchase 14 French Rafale fighter jets at a cost of $240 million, which will be paid in oil rather than cash,” Ricklefs told Defense News about the deal.

As usual: to be confirmed...

Heirs to the Mirage F1EQ, it seems...
 

totoro

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interesting so 42!
that means life time exports
Rafale - 272
Mirage 2000 - 277
(these both include the export of used French aircraft as well).

Rafale is on track to export more aircraft than its predecessor
Are you sure it's 272? I'm getting 284 Rafales exported.

Egypt 24+30
Qatar 24+12
India 36
Croatia 12
Greece 24
UAE 80
Indonesia 42

Though, I'm also getting more M2000 exported than 277 as well, if the French M2000 wiki page is to be believed.
 

Archibald

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interesting so 42!
that means life time exports
Rafale - 272
Mirage 2000 - 277
(these both include the export of used French aircraft as well).

Rafale is on track to export more aircraft than its predecessor
Are you sure it's 272? I'm getting 284 Rafales exported.

Egypt 24+30
Qatar 24+12
India 36
Croatia 12
Greece 24
UAE 80
Indonesia 42

Though, I'm also getting more M2000 exported than 277 as well, if the French M2000 wiki page is to be believed.

From memory, 620 Mirage 2000s were built and the French AF got 315, that would left 305 exported...

As for the F1: 700+ built, 246 went to the French.

http://www.airvectors.net/avmirf1.html#m3

Going with the 246 French machines plus C. G website detailed export orders, I get 680 aircraft of which 434 were exported.

There is some uncertainity over the Iraqis - 93 to 106 aircraft.

There were four prototypes (01 that killed René Bigand plus the 02 - 03 - 04)

That would be 684... plus the F1-M53: 685.

One thing is sure: the F1 is still way ahead. And of course the Mirage III extended family, at 1400+
 
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Flyaway

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But don’t aircraft cost proportionally more now even adjusting for inflation. Plus you can do more with less numbers.
 

Deltafan

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interesting so 42!
that means life time exports
Rafale - 272
Mirage 2000 - 277
(these both include the export of used French aircraft as well).

Rafale is on track to export more aircraft than its predecessor
Are you sure it's 272? I'm getting 284 Rafales exported.

Egypt 24+30
Qatar 24+12
India 36
Croatia 12
Greece 24
UAE 80
Indonesia 42

Though, I'm also getting more M2000 exported than 277 as well, if the French M2000 wiki page is to be believed.
Yes, 284 Rafale export: 260 new + 24 used (12/12 for Croatia and 12/24 for Greece)
 
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helmutkohl

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interesting so 42!
that means life time exports
Rafale - 272
Mirage 2000 - 277
(these both include the export of used French aircraft as well).

Rafale is on track to export more aircraft than its predecessor
Are you sure it's 272? I'm getting 284 Rafales exported.

Egypt 24+30
Qatar 24+12
India 36
Croatia 12
Greece 24
UAE 80
Indonesia 42

Though, I'm also getting more M2000 exported than 277 as well, if the French M2000 wiki page is to be believed.
I used the numbers from English Wikipedia, this includes situations like Greece where they are receiving some used airframes
same for the Mirage 2000, counting Brazil's ex M2Ks even though they are used.
I think the issue may have been either with Qatars 12 additional orders or Croatia's 12 orders that were not updated on the page when I wrote that.
 

TomcatViP

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Strikes somewhat threaten to burden an already disctutable slow production rate for the Rafale (emphasising is not mine but the one from the source editor [!] ) :

En conséquence, plus aucun fuselage de Rafale n’aurait quitté le site de Biarritz depuis fin 2021. À Argenteuil, la cadence serait tombée de deux fuselages produits chaque mois à un tous les trois mois, dont le dernier fin novembre 2021. Ce que ne confirme pas Dassault Aviation. « Le mouvement et ses conséquences sont très variables d’un site à l’autre. Les mouvements ralentissent le travail et nous avons des tentatives de blocage, indique un porte-parole de l’entreprise. Nous agissons pour réduire les retards. Pour l’instant nous parvenons à livrer les éléments entre établissements et les avions aux clients. » Le site de Mérignac, qui assure l’assemblage final des avions, maintient un rythme de production normal jusqu’à présent.
--------------************-----------------

As a result, no more Rafale fuselages have left the Biarritz site since the end of 2021. In Argenteuil, the rate have fallen from two fuselages each month to one every three months, the last of which at the end of November 2021. This couldn't be confirmed by Dassault Aviation. “The movement and its consequences are very variable from one site to another. The movements slow down the work and we have blocking attempts, indicates a spokesman of the company. We are taking action to reduce delays. At the moment we are managing to deliver each sub-asswmbly b/w sites and aircraft to customers. The Mérignac site, which handles the final assembly of the aircraft, has followed a normal production rate so far.


Notice that, logically, availability rate in frontline squadrons should drop invariably as a consequence, sooner or later, since the executive's comment above suggests IMOHO that components defaulting on the production line are sourced directly from stocks to maintain a relevant output of completed airframe.
 
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H_K

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logically, availability rate in frontline squadrons should drop invariably as a consequence
Depends on whether Rafale spares are made by Dassault or by other component manufacturers.

As I understand it the latter is more likely, ie. most spares will come from Snecma (engines), Thales (electronics), Messier Bugatti (landing gear, tires & brakes) and other specialized manufacturers etc. Dassault’s in-house work is mostly limited to airframe structures… not sure how often those structures would have to be switched out.

So very unlikely IMHO.
 
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TomcatViP

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Thales to up cadences and increases production capacity related to the Rafale:

Aujourd’hui, la multiplication des contrats à l’export change complètement la donne. Pour répondre à la demande, Thales envisage de produire jusqu’à une cadence de 4,5 équipements par mois, contre 2,5 actuellement. Si le groupe reconnaît qu’il s’agit d’un bond dans l’inconnu en termes d’industrialisation, il ne laisse rien au hasard.

La montée en puissance se fera progressivement pour adapter l’outil industriel et réaliser les embauches nécessaires. Il faut ainsi un an par exemple pour passer d’une cadence de 2,5 éléments produits par mois à 3,5 par mois et autant pour franchir le palier suivant. Thales prévoit donc d’atteindre la cadence 4,5 à l’horizon 2025.
********////*********

Today, the proliferation of export contracts completely changes the situation. To meet demand, Thales plans to produce up to 4.5 pieces of equipment per month, compared to 2.5 currently. If the group recognizes that it is a link in the unknown in terms of industrialization, it leaves nothing to chance.

The ramp-up will be done gradually to adapt the industrial tool and make the necessary hires. An example is therefore needed to move from a rate of 2.5 items produced per month to 3.5 per month and as much to overcome the next level. Thales therefore plans to reach the 4.5 rate by 2025.


 

helmutkohl

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on a related note, are there any countries that operate (or will operate) both F-35s and Rafales?
the only one I can think of is, potentially Greece.
 

TomcatViP

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Just a nice pic (source: the NYtimes.com) :

1646564087429.png

French fighter jets patrolling the airspace over Poland as part of NATO operations on Friday.Credit...Nicolas Tucat/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

More on this picture here, where it is said that the mission involved 4 refueling and was launched from France (Mont de Marsan) with a flight back (seems the duo of Rafale is providing escort to the MRTT from where this shot was taken):

(edited)
 
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Archibald

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Mont de Marsant
Mont de Marsan - no "t" please (been born there and then my parent moved a safe distance away).
(Nitpicking mode OFF)
 
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