Crew: 900 and 1080 sailors (not including the air element of 550 to 620 sailors) with higher comfort compared to Charles de Gaulle.

Very important point there. It is one of the side-effects of trying to cram a Nimitz catapult on a Clemenceau hull shape pushed to its extreme limits, with the tonnage of a late Essex: crew accomodations are cramped and stuck at 1980's level of comfort... and COVID onboard CdG went pretty badly, 18 months ago (then again, that US supercarrier crew I forgot the name - Lincoln ? - greatly suffered, too).

But CdG antiquated crew accomodations seems to be driving french sailors away from it: to more modern ships.
based on the lessons of CdG and the needs of France in perhaps 20 years into the future, what do you think the next carrier should be like?
taking into consideration future developments of the Rafale and its follow on?

I'm no naval engineer, but I have some doubts about the present plan for a 75 000 tons nuclear carrier with naval SCAF on deck.

Makes perfect sense on tecnical grounds: SCAF is larger than Rafale-M while CdG is a bit on the smallish side even for Rafale M and E-2s. Makes some sense to go much larger.
It is financially that it doesn't makes any sense. Waaaaaay too expensive for the French Navy budget, even if only one is build when two would be needed.

As I said in another post, I would be more reassured if tonnage dropped a little and nuclear was abandonned, which would result in a French Q.E except CATOBAR...
...and this bring us back to the 2000's, CVF & PA2.

Why reinvent the wheel ? Start from the Q.E design (less expensive development, including CATOBAR capability) drop nuclear (more money saved)
and this way, return to a TWO carrier fleet.
- like Great Britain presently
- like Foch & Clemenceau back in the day

But the nuclear lobby has spoken, carrier(s) must support the attack / boomer nuclear submarine industry even if
- the same idea already crippled CdG itself (K-15 reactors not well adapted)
- the same idea already crippled a CdG twin (too expensive)
- the same idea led to a break with the British (Q.E not nuclear)
- the carrier being nuclear will make it far more expensive and thus only 1 will be procured

The Q.E seems like an honest-to-God design; CATOBAR variants have been repeatedly studied; France was once involved (CVF, PA2).

I can understand Sarkozy decision in 2008 to stop France involvement in the Q.E: as it would have resulted in a single ship way too different from CdG, including not nuclear.

But only 12 years later, with the Q.E in service and CdG near or past middle-life, why not start again from the basic Q.E design ?

How about a nuclear / CATOBAR / EMALS Q.E ?

I wonder if the future K-22 submarine reactors could do the job.

Or a non-nuclear / CATOBAR / EMALS Q.E ?
(probably not possible, not enough "juice")

I kind of like South Korea way of getting carriers - although the ships are not CATOBAR and too small for France.
Maybe we should draw inspiration from them, and the closest thing to start from would be the British Q.Es. South Korea GDP, population and resources are not that dissimilar to France's... and those parameters are direct influences on a navy financial resources.

And then there is @H_K suggestion here.

I'm left wondering if the best way to wouldn't be
- Q.E hull
- EMALS
- Alternative: licence-built C-13 catapults, "borrowed" from the CdG
- K-22 reactors
 
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summary translation
Indonesia to drop Su-35 and narrowing it down to F-15 EX or Rafale. Seems to imply Rafale might be ahead due to UAE influence
I am reminded of:


Now let's see what really happens...
 
In case for Rafale tho.. if the budget for the Su's are used and contract got signed. we would get 6 Rafale with F3R configuration. That's kinda fell short for the 36 being offered but that's basically what we can pay for. Hopefully 2022 will see a better financing plan.
While for F-15EX's well.. that needs to go through state department first which later may issue DSCA notice. This gonna take time and with current administration, a great amount of patience.

It is very unlikely both types are purchased, one have to go. If such happen tho then i cannot get the reasoning behind Su-35 "resistance" here citing logistical issues and connectivity. While the real reason was conflict of interests and the fact nobody up there has balls to use alternate banking system offered by Moscow. CAATSA will hit.. but the "damage" would be limited to some people which involved with the deal.
 
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With countdown already begun to commission indigenous aircraft carrier 1 as INS Vikrant in August 2022, the Indian Navy will conduct flight trials of Rafale-Maritime fighter at Shore Based Test Facility at INS Hansa in Goa on January 6 onwards as part of its exercise to identify the best warplane to suit the 40,000 tonne carrier. The IAC 1 is based at Cochin shipyard and is currently undergoing intensive sea trials in Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean.

According to officials in knowledge of the matter, the Rafale-M fighter will be pushed through intensive trial at the 283 metre mock-up ski jump facility at INS Hansa for nearly 12 days to assess whether the fighter aircraft is best suited for IAC-1. The Rafale M fighter is the principal weapon system for French Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier and has also shown its inter-operability with US aircraft carriers way back in 2008.

The Indian Navy is also planning to test US F-18 Hornet fighter at the same facility apparently in March as the alternative option to Rafale-M fighter. The Boeing F-18 is a proven carrier based multi-role fighter for the US Navy and has performed strike operations from way back to 1991 Gulf War.

While the Indian Navy operates two squadrons of MiG-29K onboard its sole aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, the Russian aircraft is facing issues of maintenance and spare parts availability.

The DRDO’s LCA-M is still in the development stage with two single engine demonstrator fighters being flight tested from INS Vikramaditya and the Goa based shore based test facility for providing inputs to the final twin engine deck based carrier fighter in future. According to Aeronautical Development Agency, the first flight trial of the indigenous twin engine fighter is expected before 2026 and induction into Indian Navy before 2031.

While the decision on which fighter will spearhead IAC-1 will be based on the flight trials, fact is that Rafale-M is lighter and smaller in airframe to F-18 and packs a bigger punch than its American counterpart in terms of longer range air to air missiles and air to land missiles. Naval Aviation experts also say that it will be require structural modifications to the IAC 1 to fit F-18 into the lift to cart the fighter from hanger to the flight deck above due to its comparatively larger airframe.

As the IAC -1 is expected to commissioned as INS Vikrant on August 15, 2022, the 75th year of Indian independence, by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, there is a strong possibility that the Indian Navy may ask the French manufacturers of the aircraft to lease four to five Rafale -M in 2022 so that the aircraft carrier is made operational. India already has a maintenance cum flight training facility of Rafale at Ambala air base. The Naval aviators will be trained at INS Hansa.

 
The Serbian Air Force is considering buying Rafale fighters from France and has informed the country’s president, Defense Minister Nebojsa Stefanovic said on December 28.

Earlier this month, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic announced a € 500 million ($ 566 million) increase in the country’s € 1.1 billion defense budget in 2022 for equipment and weapons additional.

"The modernization of the Serbian fighter jet fleet is a costly undertaking which must be considered strategically. The Air Force told the president it was currently more inclined to buy the French-made Rafale. But once we have completed a full analysis, let’s see what the army chooses," Stefanovic told Radio Television Serbia.

Serbia's interest in French-made fighters has likely intensified following Croatia's recent purchase of 12 second-hand Rafales. The territorial war that involved Croatia and Serbia in the 90s after the collapse of Yugoslavia left deep marks and relations between the two nations remained tense. Recent statements made by Croatian and Serbian authorities suggest that they have started an arms race.

 
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^ my hunch is that there's more about politics behind any potential Serbian interest in the Rafale
and a lot has to do with France being resistant in further EU enlargement (which was supposed to include Serbia).
perhaps a Rafale deal would change France's mind.

elsewhere, in regards to India and the Rafale.. Alert5 mentioned that they may start flying the Rafale off a ski jump at a land based test facility as early as this week.

I've nothing against the MiG-29K..but I really do hope to see either the Rafale or Shornet be selected. would love to see them fly on a carrier of a non-home navy!
 
Rafale doesn't have folding wings, does it seriously fit on the lifts? They look tiny in photos.

It has been discussed before on this forum (can't remember where). They seem to fit in the diagonal at least, and barely. But they must fit, otherwise Dassault and the Indians probably would not even try.
 
Rafale doesn't have folding wings, does it seriously fit on the lifts? They look tiny in photos.

It has been discussed before on this forum (can't remember where). They seem to fit in the diagonal at least, and barely. But they must fit, otherwise Dassault and the Indians probably would not even try.
I was reading the comments in the foxtrot alpha article and someone had the dimensions up, I just don't get why they managed to screw up a clean sheet design carrier.

I can't imagine it's going to be easy to modify.
 
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Rafale doesn't have folding wings, does it seriously fit on the lifts? They look tiny in photos.

It has been discussed before on this forum (can't remember where). They seem to fit in the diagonal at least, and barely. But they must fit, otherwise Dassault and the Indians probably would not even try.
I was reading the comments in the foxtrot alpha article and someone had the dimensions up, I just don't get why managed to screw up a clean sheet design carrier.

I can't imagine it's going to be easy to modify.
same. it boggles me they didnt go with a larger elevator (for future expansion) on a new design.
I can understand the Gorshkov since its a refit.. but come on.. what a wasted opportunity
 
Les 6 premiers avions de combat Rafale commandés par la Grèce en Janvier 2021 rejoindront la 114ème escadre de combat sur la base de Tanagra en Béotie, au nord d’Athènes, entre le 17 et le 19 janvier 2022, soit à peine une année après que la première commande de 18 appareils, dont 12 avions d’occasion prélevés sur le parc de l’Armée de l’Air et de l’espace et modernisés au standard F3R par Dassault Aviation, aie été signée
---------------------------
The first 6 Rafale fighter jets ordered by Greece in January 2021 will join the 114th combat squadron at the Tanagra base in Boeotia, north of Athens, between January 17 and 19, 2022, barely a year after the first order for 18 aircraft, including 12 used aircraft taken from the French Air Force and Space fleet and modernized to F3R standard by Dassault Aviation, has been signed


Regarding prod nbr, 25 Rafale were delivered in 2021 and 49 orders were registered.
 
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en Béotie
Le pays des béotiens ?

One can't invent such things.

(translation: béotien is french word for "ignoramus". A pompous word to design "somebody who knows nothing about a subject".)

In Portuguese, it has a similar meaning. IIRC, it comes from an Ancient Greek stereotype of Boeotians being stupid and lazy.
 

French Navy Rafale-M fighter will test and demonstrate launch compatibility off a ski-jump today at India’s Shore-based Test Facility (SBTF) in Goa. The fighter, purpose built for a steam catapult launch off the French Navy’s Charles de Gaul aircraft carrier will be launching off a ski jump for the first time in the real world — the fighter’s maker Dassault Aviation has been conducting digital simulations for years now.
 
en Béotie
Le pays des béotiens ?

One can't invent such things.

(translation: béotien is french word for "ignoramus". A pompous word to design "somebody who knows nothing about a subject".)

In Portuguese, it has a similar meaning. IIRC, it comes from an Ancient Greek stereotype of Boeotians being stupid and lazy.

Beotian rhapsody ? (runs for cover)

Charles de Gaul


Why is it so hard to write the name correctly ? De GAULLE you dummy...

Not you @aonestudio but the link you linked
 
As I understand the picture is not an actual photograh of the event. I was surprised to see a full combat ladden Rafale jumping out of the ramp for the 1st day. But you'd never know!
 
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As I understand the picture is not an actual photograh of the event. I was surprised to see a full combat ladden Rafale jumping out of the ramp for the 1st day. But you'd never know!
yes. it says so at the bottom of that picture if you click it "digitally edited image for representative purposes".

on related news.. Indian news sources just stated today that Modi will make major defense decisions on Wednesday in regards to the Make in India defense drive. Its expected he's going to stop the purchase of several major imports in favor of buy local. So perhaps this might be threatened? But then again, India doesnt make any carrier aircraft since they cut the Naval Tejas.
 
French availability rates for 2021:

View: https://twitter.com/HerveGrandjean/status/1479487552050675713/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1479487552050675713%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opex360.com%2F2022%2F01%2F10%2Fle-ministere-des-armees-se-felicite-de-la-lente-amelioration-de-la-disponibilite-de-ses-aeronefs%2F


With some more details here:
55% des 98 Rafale en dotation au sein de l’armée de l’Air & de l’Espace [AAE] au premier juillet 2021 auront finalement été disponibles [contre 53% en 2018, sur une flotte de 102 appareils]. Quant aux 42 Rafale M de la Marine nationale, 61% d’entre eux l’ont été l’an passé [contre 53% trois ans plus tôt].
—---------------------------

55% of the 98 Rafale in service with the Air & Space [AAE] army as of July 1, 2021 will have finally been available [compared to 53% in 2018, among a fleet of 102 aircraft]. As for the 42 Rafale M of the French Navy, 61% of them were last year [compared to 53% three years earlier].


I am also wondering if in the recycling number, Mr Macron great Bazaar performances are included?!
 
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^ wow a link to Key publishing.. do people still post there? I'm still upset at how they needlessly changed the format of that forum which totally killed everything.

im curious to why the naval version of the Rafale has higher availability rates than the land based one.

on another note, according to Livefist, the ski jump test of the Rafale seems to have been delayed to today and will occur at 12:00 local time, which is about 4 hours from now
 
^ wow a link to Key publishing.. do people still post there? I'm still upset at how they needlessly changed the format of that forum which totally killed everything.

yeah. so much are lost. It's hard to read now.

on another note, according to Livefist, the ski jump test of the Rafale seems to have been delayed to today and will occur at 12:00 local time, which is about 4 hours from now
Now waiting.
 
 
That looks like some sort of Fire-retardant foam.

The bird strikes.. guillotined the OSF, the aircraft system automatically "patch" the hole with that foam.
 
French defence victory could mean a defeat for European co-operation (ft.com, registration or subscription may be required)

There were two reasons for France’s defence industry to celebrate when the United Arab Emirates agreed to buy 80 Rafale fighters from Dassault Aviation last month. First, it was sweet revenge for the humiliation last autumn when Australia walked away from a submarine deal in favour of an alliance with the US. There must have been a frisson of satisfaction in Paris when Abu Dhabi, days after agreeing to buy the French fighter, suspended talks with the US on the purchase of Lockheed Martin’s F-35. Second, the UAE’s order — worth an estimated €14bn — will guarantee production of the Rafale through to 2031, as well as work for more than 400 French companies in the supply chain. It will also help fund France’s investment in future upgrades to the Rafale, which is now expected to be in service through the 2050s. Yet, while the deal has a lot going for it from a French perspective, it risks destabilising Europe’s efforts at defence collaboration. For it strengthens Dassault’s hand in the still-troublesome negotiations with Airbus’s German-based defence division over Europe’s proposed Future Combat Air System (FCAS). The last time Dassault — and by extension the French defence ministry — felt it wasn’t getting what it needed from a European fighter programme, it walked away. The result was Dassault’s Rafale. Launched in 2017 by former German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Emmanuel Macron, FCAS was an overtly political project. It showed both countries’ determination to bolster Europe’s sovereign military capability after Britain’s exit from the EU. In 2019, Spain joined the programme. The problems began when politicians handed it to industry. From the start, it was marked by squabbling over technology sharing and leadership of the most critical parts of the programme. The fighting was exacerbated by fundamentally different ideas of what collaboration meant. “French collaboration is making sure you get the most effective output,” generally under French leadership, says one European defence executive. “In Germany, it is partly about the best athlete, but also about industrial workshare.” The project also forced together two bitter rivals — Dassault and Airbus Defence and Space. But last year it seemed Europe’s political ambitions had gained the upper hand. A deal on basic principles was struck and industrial agreements were reached on six of the project’s seven pillars, spanning manned and unmanned aircraft, space and terrestrial communications, cutting-edge stealth technologies, artificial intelligence and more. But divisions remain on the seventh pillar — the next-generation fighter jet itself — and there is no sign of imminent compromise. Both sides have logical reasons for digging in their heels. Dassault, standard bearer of France’s sovereignty in combat aircraft, argues it needs to develop and manage the crucial flight-control system itself, for example. But Germany understandably expects its industry to have access to the technology, having pledged billions for the project. It is in this context that the UAE’s Rafale deal could tilt the balance, argues Francis Tusa, consultant and editor of Defence Analysis newsletter. “It has changed the equation,” he says. “France no longer needs Germany. The profits they get from the UAE deal will finance upgrades to Rafale.” “The days for the project are numbered unless the Germans understand where they are in the pecking order,” Tusa adds. “They are not equals in industrial capability.” Meanwhile, the new German government’s plans to codify into law the country’s tougher restrictions on arms exports — potentially limiting them to just Nato and the EU — is adding to tensions. Such constraints on exports “would be a deal killer”, said one French defence executive. It would be a significant blow to Europe’s defence ambitions if France chose to walk away again from a European fighter. It would be a failure, too, for Macron, who has prioritised collaboration during France’s presidency of the EU. But presidential elections are looming in April and the Dassault family does not just control a key French defence company. It owns the politically influential Le Figaro newspaper. Ultimately, while only politicians on both sides can resolve the stand off, that may have to wait until France goes to the polls. But the longer the stalemate continues, the greater the risk for Europe that its latest test case of co-operation begins to fall apart. peggy.hollinger@ft.com
 
Meanwhile, the new German government’s plans to codify into law the country’s tougher restrictions on arms exports — potentially limiting them to just Nato and the EU — is adding to tensions. Such constraints on exports “would be a deal killer”, said one French defence executive.

At some point if Germany only wants to make silly decisions - walk out of nuclear power amid Global warming; selling combat aircraft only to Teletubbies-countries - then don't count on France to follow down the suicidal rabbit hole. We have an independance and an industrial base and jobs to preserve...
Russian gas & global warming- no thanks.
F-35 and Chinese combat aircraft - no thanks.
If that 's a consolation prize, the situation in the automotive industry is a polar opposite.
Except cars, TBH, are not weapons, and don't kill people in wars.
 
Honestly, French political arena is like a fish bowl... Lost on Venus: What happens in Europe won't affect in any way Mr Macron political path.
Then, I am sure Dassault's management team have now matured enough to understand that turning their back again to Europe will affect their prospective sales. They need it as much as any perfume needs a sexy English speaking woman hacking sensually a bit of French words in a commercial.

Would the German and Spanish industry be contented in that hypothesis? Well, the vision is that it's business only. If they can still work in the same time with LM on the F-35 or the Brits, there will not be blood.
As I have said before, IMOHO, there is plenty of rooms for both design. That's the only thing to be learned from the Typhoon/Rafale debacle.
 
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I'm quite sure we can ditch Germany and keep Spain... it nearly happened for the Rafale (I thought last call had been August 1985 but they seemingly dragged their feet until 1988 before jumping into the Typhoon bandwagon).
 
I'm quite sure we can ditch Germany and keep Spain... it nearly happened for the Rafale (I thought last call had been August 1985 but they seemingly dragged their feet until 1988 before jumping into the Typhoon bandwagon).

to be honest.. I've always felt that should the case. A lot of the Franco-German (or majority Franco-German plus smaller contributors) projects have always had some major issues. Tiger, NH90, etc..
the collabs that I thought were great were often Franco-UK, but that may not happen again any time soon.
France should just do w/o Germany.
 
@TomcatViP Maybe true in times long ago but the German parliament isn’t exactly helping the situation, and has been a problem for all European projects since the end of the Cold War (eg. Eurofighter).

Ideal solution would be for Germany to pullout of NGF and to continue collaboration on only a narrow, discrete part of the SCAF ecosystem, e.g. future engine technology, remote carriers etc. Then France/Dassault could go build the NGF platform with more reliable partners such as Spain and (ideally) Greece.
 
@TomcatViP Maybe true in times long ago but the German parliament isn’t exactly helping the situation, and has been a problem for all European projects since the end of the Cold War (eg. Eurofighter).

Ideal solution would be for Germany to pullout of NGF and to continue collaboration on only a narrow, discrete part of the SCAF ecosystem, e.g. future engine technology, remote carriers etc. Then France/Dassault could go build the NGF platform with more reliable partners such as Spain and (ideally) Greece.
this makes me quite concerned about the future franco german MBT as well. even though both countries have very excellent engineers and designers.. its Germanys politics and management that will lead to products with changing goal posts, cost overruns, etc
 
That looks like some sort of Fire-retardant foam.

The bird strikes.. guillotined the OSF, the aircraft system automatically "patch" the hole with that foam.
I think it’s just likely to be structural foam. Probably there to keep vibrations away from the IRST and limit thermal fluctuations. Just a guess though.
 
Transall with Germany was damn successfull, to the point it will be retired 60 years after 1963.
Jaguar with GB was a mixed bag - decent aircraft but at what cost ?

As you said, I don't follow a lot Germany defense news, but clearly since reunification they are blundering a lot.

Maybe its time for "round 3" and a new partner: With GB in post-Brexit troubles and Germany behaving... oddly, maybe Spain time has come.
 

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