Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
950
Reaction score
1,652
unfortunately the part I want to know.. they couldnt mention in the article. Quite personally I really would like to see the Rafale fly off the Indian carriers.. but I really have no idea how they will resolve the elevator issue. It still boggles me how tiny they made the elevators. I can understand the Vikramaditya since its original design was a destroyer.. but the new Vikrant was a clean sheet design.

Sources in the defence establishment sought to allay fears expressed in some quarters that the lift of the indigenous aircraft carrier was small and would not be able to accommodate either the Rafale M or the F/A-18. While the Boeing fighter comes with foldable wings, Rafale does not.


“The mere fact that both companies are eager to offer their aircraft means that they have taken into account various measurements,” a source said, refusing to get into the specifics.
 

Bhurki

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
308
Reaction score
294
unfortunately the part I want to know.. they couldnt mention in the article. Quite personally I really would like to see the Rafale fly off the Indian carriers.. but I really have no idea how they will resolve the elevator issue. It still boggles me how tiny they made the elevators. I can understand the Vikramaditya since its original design was a destroyer.. but the new Vikrant was a clean sheet design.

Sources in the defence establishment sought to allay fears expressed in some quarters that the lift of the indigenous aircraft carrier was small and would not be able to accommodate either the Rafale M or the F/A-18. While the Boeing fighter comes with foldable wings, Rafale does not.


“The mere fact that both companies are eager to offer their aircraft means that they have taken into account various measurements,” a source said, refusing to get into the specifics.
If they decide to spend some $5-6B on 36 Rafales, I'm sure they'll find a fraction more to modify the lifts.
 

starviking

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
1,275
Reaction score
450
unfortunately the part I want to know.. they couldnt mention in the article. Quite personally I really would like to see the Rafale fly off the Indian carriers.. but I really have no idea how they will resolve the elevator issue. It still boggles me how tiny they made the elevators. I can understand the Vikramaditya since its original design was a destroyer.. but the new Vikrant was a clean sheet design.

Maybe the lift size was limited to protect the LCA programme? “Yes Minister, the LCA has run into problems, but we simply MUST have it for our new carrier - nothing else will do.”
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
6,318
The idiocy is also on the French side, TBH - for the sake of commonality with the AdA, no folding wintips.
Had the Aéronavale been allowed to buy Hornets... but politics would never, ever allow it.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
950
Reaction score
1,652
The idiocy is also on the French side, TBH - for the sake of commonality with the AdA, no folding wintips.
Had the Aéronavale been allowed to buy Hornets... but politics would never, ever allow it.
i'm glad I'm not the only one who felt so.

I've said it often.. France should have skipped over the Rafale. the Navy could make do with the Hornets as the Crusader and entendard replacement.

Its not that I dislike the Rafale (its probably my favorite of the Eurocanards).. but the M2K was and still is a mighty good plane.
but to me I didnt like the idea of a 4th gen -> 4.5 gen -> and now 6th gen? acquisition process
the M2K first flew in 78, and then the Rafale A demo first flew just 8 years later. the M2K still has a lot of design life left to last to the 2030s. Resources could have went to a 5th gen aircraft instead, so the timeline would have been
M2K -> 5th gen

the M2K has done certainly well in the Aegean, Himalayas, and North Africa theaters.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
6,318
I have mixed feelings. Dassault needed to replace the 2000 to survive into the 21th century. The 2000 itself was already a letdown, from the 4000: Giscard logical choice in 1975, after the oil shock.

Now, was the Rafale the optimal solution ? From the point of foreign export orders (coming after 1400 Mirage III, 700+ Mirage F1s, and 600+ Mirage 2000s) NO.

It is a matter of politics and history, the AdA wanted a twin-jet since 1958, but Phantom (= Mirage IVC) F-111 ( = AFVG, G4, G8) and F-15 (= ACF, 4000) were always unaffordable to France finances.

By 1978 Hornet (and MiG-29) provided a new twin-jet template: smaller and cheaper thanks to smaller turbofan (F404).
Typhoon and Rafale, thanks to EJ200 and M88, were seen as "Euro-Hornets" rather than "Euro F-111" (Tornado, barely affordable by 3 countries) or "Euro F-15" (ACF, Mirage 4000, unaffordable to France alone).

Novi Avion is a fascinating glimpse at what a post-2000, single-engine alt-Rafale might have been.

But the AdA by 1985 already had a crapload of single-engine, redundant types.
Fundamentally, in the second-half of the 80's Mirage F1C-200 with Super 530F and early Mirage 2000 RDM/ RDI (with Super 530D) overlapped in the interceptor role.

In stark contrast, when France fought GW1 in January 1991, its strike force was largely obsolete: Mirage IIIE, Mirage V, and Jaguars. Mirage 2000N was only for nuclear strike; Mirage 2000D come too late, in 1993.
As a result only Jaguars fought, and the first missions were... scary (Al-Jaber, January 17 1991 nearly ended in disaster).


First time French Jaguar pilots got a GPS in their cockpits, it was a civilian kit strapped with tape. I kid you not.

The AdA had plenty enough single-engine interceptors and did not wanted yet another one.
Mirage IV and Jaguar replacement drove the Rafale toward 2 engines.
 
Last edited:

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
6,318
The strike F1 was the CT and came (like the 2000D) too late in 1992 93. French GW1 F1s were CR and indeed the risk of friendly fire was used against them. The GW1 2000s were RDI and interceptor only. Just like the USN Tomcats and Tornado ADV they were told only F-15s would get the kills, including RSAF ones.

So strikes fell on the Jaguar force.
 

Manuducati

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
69
Reaction score
195
Rafale to be tested from ski jump in 2022.

 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
6,318
If that true, then Pakistan will fee a little "squeezed" between two "Rafale air forces".
Time for them to drop those truly antiquated Mirage IIIs (even the ROSE ones), jump two generations (F1 and 2000) and land a Rafale order...
 

Deltafan

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,275
Reaction score
967
If that true, then Pakistan will fee a little "squeezed" between two "Rafale air forces".
Time for them to drop those truly antiquated Mirage IIIs (even the ROSE ones), jump two generations (F1 and 2000) and land a Rafale order...

Mmmh, I think Pakistan is in a bad mood to become a Rafale customer for a while ...

 

AN/AWW-14(V)

ACCESS: Granted
Senior Member
Joined
May 18, 2019
Messages
476
Reaction score
970
216d363e141c0c95d9a72ceae891bc03.jpg


Egypt's contract with France for a further 30 Dassault Rafale combat aircraft came into force on 15 November.

The manufacturer announced that the contract signed on 4 May to bring Egypt's total Rafale fleet from 24 up to 54 aircraft has now been activated.

As announced earlier in the year, Egypt is to acquire the additional Rafales for EUR3.8 billion (USD4.6 billion) via a 10-year loan.

Egypt signed for its first 24 Rafales (16 Rafale B/DM two-seaters and eight Rafale C/EM single-seaters) in early 2015, with deliveries commencing later the same year and running through to late 2017. Neither the composition of this latest order nor its delivery timeline have yet been revealed.

Although not noted in the announcement by the Egyptian MoD, the country's new Rafales are likely to be built to the latest F3-R standard that has recently been declared fully operational by the French armed forces.

 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
4,797
Reaction score
4,312
Amazing how the cost is over that of a higher nbr of F-35 as recently bought by the SwAF.
At least, it's less than what India had to pay...

Interestingly however it shows how the simple Rafale, when marketed as such and not has a superlative fighter, has a market reminiscent of the Mirage III or V.

But then, what would happen to the FrAF allocated lots? We still have to see how this will be impacted as how, obviously, payments for earlier deals with Egypt have been going.
 
Last edited:

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
6,318
Well if the Rafale pulls out a Mirage III against a F-35 that proves to be the Phantom - why not ?

Mirage III, F1 and 2000 together built and sold 1400+700+600 = 2400 airframes.
Out of this, the AdA got 450, 250 and 315 so an average 3*350 = a bit more than 1000.

Meaning the rest (1300 and counting) was exported.

A very honorable success in a world dominated, first, by the F-104 / F-4 / F-5 trio (5200+2200+2200 = 9600) and then by the F-16 (4500) and a few others (F-18).

The Typhoon and Grippen are presently mostly out of the game (a few sales there and here) so Rafale, without their peculiar issues (smallish Sweden with US engine; scattered European partners) sells rather well in the small niche between F-35 and Russian / Chinese types.

Rafale's present luck is
- F-16 is done (at least !)
- Typhoon and Grippen are stalled
- Superbug and F-22 are essentially done, too
- The Russians and Chinese are a bit stalled, too (Su-27 is growing old, Checkmate is only beginning, Chinese jets do not export a lot so far)
- F-35 is a mass-produced steamroller (makes no mistake) but has some rigid rules attached to its sales (networked, stealth, expensive and sophisticated, Turkey S-400 affair...)
- Yet not all countries forbidden of F-35 for varied reasons, wants F-16V or second-hand F-16s, even dirt cheap.

When you look that way, Rafale even if not stealth to the level of F-35, remains an honest-to-God alternative... even more since Dassault and France have no qualms selling their most advanced weaponry and sensors (unlike some troubling restrictions with the F-35).
 
Last edited:

TMA1

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
168
Reaction score
236
The rafale is extremely capable and frankly offers certain benefits that even f-35 does not offer. French truly make amazing kit.
 

H_K

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
347
Reaction score
696
Amazing how the cost is over that of a higher nbr of F-35 as recently bought by the SwAF.

Not quite true. The 36 F-35s for Switzerland cost CHF 5.07B, so about €134M each.

The 30 Rafale cost €3.8B, so €127M each.

So Rafale is cheaper by a hair. Hard to say more without knowing what is included in the package (weapons, spares, logistics etc). The Swiss package was very limited… almost no spares or weapons included according to the FMS approval.
 
Last edited:

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
6,318
and frankly offers certain benefits that even f-35 does not offer
Such as?
If you’re Egypt, the ability to bomb Libya, Yemen, Israel etc without US pre-approval. Plus some weapons that the US may not be willing to sell.

As a matter of fact, with the notable exception (mercifully !) of ASMP-A nuclear cruise missile - everything is indeed on the table, for arming Rafales. Even SCALP conventional cruise missiles; AASM powered / glide bombs; and a ton of other A2G stuff.
Has Meteor AAM been cleared for export ? Can't remember if anybody outside Europe has them (my bet is on Middle east nation...)
 

TMA1

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
168
Reaction score
236
and frankly offers certain benefits that even f-35 does not offer
Such as?
It can actually supercruise with a light A2A readout. Has better kinematics. Probably easier to maintain and I'm assuming slightly less expensive to maintain as well. It also seems that the french dont connect as many geopolitical strings to their mil products as our fighters have.

I'd say for a country like the UK, the f-35b was the best choice by far (frankly the only choice) and has excellent capabilities. For a nation like Egypt or India though the rafale would certainly be better even if they had the chance to by the f-35.
 

eagle

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
37
Reaction score
47
- F-16 is done (at least !)
How so?
In 2022 the first Vipers will leave the new assembly line, 128 on order currently.

So Rafale is cheaper by a hair.
In Switzerland, F-35 beat Rafale, EF and F-18E/F on costs, both procurement and operating. 36 F-35 are 2 billion CHF cheaper to buy and operate over a 30 year period compared to the 2nd cheapest option.
 

H_K

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
347
Reaction score
696
36 F-35 are 2 billion CHF cheaper to buy and operate over a 30 year period compared to the 2nd cheapest option.

That’s entirely due to an accounting trick. The F-35 operating costs were estimated based on flying 20% fewer hours than the competitors. If you fly 20% less, it’s not that hard to come in 10% lower than the competition.

But on a per flying hour basis the F-35 is actually ~10% more expensive…

… and even that includes a lot of uncertainty and likely optimistic assumptions about the F-35’s future maintenance costs as airframes age… whereas the competitors’ long-term cost-to-own is much more certain because the oldest aircraft have already flown thousands of hours and gone through long-term maintenance intervals.
 
Last edited:

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
4,797
Reaction score
4,312
I see those 20% as very conservative: having capabilities that other don't have, you'll inherently fly less mission to achieve the same objectives.

Also, the Swiss F-35 deal includes first years of maintenance.
Stating that the Rafale is cheaper is completely illogical when we all know the FMS price. There is nothing known so far that can beat that unless you allegedly buy Chinese or Russian.

Egypt is also completing its fleet. This is not a new service introduction. Cost should be trimmed to the minimum. And that's what grants an interesting comparison.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
6,318
Oh drats, will the F-16 ever die ? 128 orders ? it must be close from 5000 airframes and the Phantom own record there...


Hell yes indeed, that aircraft will never die.
 
Last edited:

Orido

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Nov 17, 2021
Messages
1
Reaction score
3
Egypt is also completing its fleet. This is not a new service introduction. Cost should be trimmed to the minimum. And that's what grants an interesting comparison.
You don't know what's included.
It's not comparing apples to apples.

In 2017, Qatar ordered 12 Rafale for € 1.1 billion = 91 Millions each.

 
Last edited:

GTX

All hail the God of Frustration!!!
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
3,822
Reaction score
2,359
Website
beyondthesprues.com
It can actually supercruise with a light A2A readout. Has better kinematics. Probably easier to maintain and I'm assuming slightly less expensive to maintain as well. It also seems that the french dont connect as many geopolitical strings to their mil products as our fighters have.

I'd say for a country like the UK, the f-35b was the best choice by far (frankly the only choice) and has excellent capabilities. For a nation like Egypt or India though the rafale would certainly be better even if they had the chance to by the f-35.
Lot's of personal subjective assumptions there - any facts?
 

H_K

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
347
Reaction score
696
I see those 20% as very conservative: having capabilities that other don't have, you'll inherently fly less mission to achieve the same objectives.

I agree with you that may be true for some wartime operational missions. Though there are also exceptions… e.g. if you’re flying a CAP or CAS loiter for X hours a day, there’s no way to compress that.

And since 99% of flying will be peacetime (especially for Switzerland) the question is can the F-35 fly fewer training hours than its competitors? Since advanced training technology and networked simulators are widely available these days, that’s sounds more like Lockheed Martin’s marketing promises than based on any real world facts.
 

eagle

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
37
Reaction score
47
36 F-35 are 2 billion CHF cheaper to buy and operate over a 30 year period compared to the 2nd cheapest option.

That’s entirely due to an accounting trick. The F-35 operating costs were estimated based on flying 20% fewer hours than the competitors. If you fly 20% less, it’s not that hard to come in 10% lower than the competition.

But on a per flying hour basis the F-35 is actually ~10% more expensive…

… and even that includes a lot of uncertainty and likely optimistic assumptions about the F-35’s future maintenance costs as airframes age… whereas the competitors’ long-term cost-to-own is much more certain because the oldest aircraft have already flown thousands of hours and gone through long-term maintenance intervals.

The fewer hours are entirely training hours. Operational hours are the same. So in the end, the F-35 is cheaper to operate, simple.
Whether or not actual cost per flying hour is 10 % more expensive is unknown.

This also doesn't adress the fact that the F-35 is cheaper to buy.
 

Deltafan

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,275
Reaction score
967

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
4,797
Reaction score
4,312
And 12 more (or is that 12 less?!) : Croatia confirms it agreed with the session of 12 "ex" FrAF Rafale F3R

 

Deltafan

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,275
Reaction score
967
“The 12 planes that are sold to Croatia are F3-R standard [...] Deliveries will be made in 2 lots of 6 planes. The 1st batch will start to be delivered in the 2nd half of 2023. So precisely one Rafale aircraft will be sold each month between September 2023 and February 2024. The 2nd batch will be from the end of the year 2024. We will start deliveries in November 2024 and we will finish them in April 2025 [...] The Minister of the Armies Florence Parly has decided to proceed with the replacement of these second-hand planes by new planes and therefore when the supply contract for the 5th phase will be concluded in 2023. gust planes, will be taken into account the replacement of 12 sold planes. Deliveries will begin from 2027. Very concretely, 30 planes were planned to be ordered within the framework of this 5th tranche and henceforth, following the decision of the Minister of the Armed Forces, it will not be 30 but it will be 42 planes which will be ordered from industrial Dassault ”.

8'05" --> 11'25"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERY1kXiG-No&list=PLtOyR1zqP2v5pwx3KZ569rHMMkhrW0FVJ

To be confirmed, as there will be at least two elections (2022 and 2027) in this time interval.
 

Similar threads

Top