Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

stealthflanker

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The Israel link mentions 2023 delivery same as here :

While the Aljazeera just mention "delivered" without any context and instead went on adding some unrelated news.

The biggest elephant in the room however is that no photos of those Su-35's being in Egypt, which is strange considering the amount of publications received on their earlier MiG-29M's. These guys likes to shows their new stuff.
 

TomcatViP

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Why would you bring a C-17 for support?
This can only be to move around spare parts and crew. Or... Hot refueling!*
Wonder if any spotters plotted their route.

*what would explain the lack of a dedicated tanker
 

Archibald

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I remember seeing a Qatari C-17 when I was working at Bordeaux Mérignac airport. It seems they are shuttling between Mérignac and the UAE according to new Rafales needs and support (and I agree it must be insanely expensive, but we all know the UAE have boatloads of oil dollars to throw through windows, so they don't care... !)
 
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TomcatViP

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Qatari Rafale and 2K-5 in Turkey: some in France see it as a favorable commercial opportunity!
(and more French cancan cognitive dance (one leg up for Greece, one up for Turkey)...
According to Justine Mazonier, a French independent security consultant, this agreement could give the French defense industry a step towards penetrating the Turkish market — a long sought goal.

“France tried for many years to enter the Turkish market (despite the arms embargo in 2019). The Turkish military staff would be able to assess the quality of the French material and define for themselves their own operational needs,” Mazonier said.
o_O

 
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AGS-1787

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvTGBwQxK1o
I was surprised to see how easy this thing seems to go together and the little number of people working on it. Is it because it is built into big components in a different factory? I have seen videos of the Russians building a su-30 and it looks like more intensive work and more people all around so I was wondering what is the difference. The factories look pretty similar. Now if you compare it to the Korean factory building their new stealth airplane it looks more like a car factory with more automatization.
 

TomcatViP

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As mentioned, notice the minimal investment in toolings (look at the way the engines are installed... Same as on the field. Look at the way equipment are inserted... Operator's bodies used as impact screen, a single hook is used, everything is lifted suspended under a master crane (no parallel operations). Look also at the hand tools: none are electrified or pneumatics. I am sure any of those guys need an elbow surgery at 30.

This is a workshop. Not an industrial line. Thanks God, crazy Ivan, with his infamous hand drill, is kept at bay.
 
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AGS-1787

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Hey, I'm not trying to start x vs y discussion, I just pointed that it seems like the Russians build everything under one roof and the French seem to bring bigger blocks to a different location for final assembly so it looks simple to do.
 

Archibald

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Don't worry, for some reasons I never quite fully understood our dear @TomcatViP seemingly has some kind of axe to grind against French aviation, notably Dassault and Airbus.
No ad hominem, Tomcat (can I call you Tomcat ?) it just intrigates me...
 

TomcatViP

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Can't you see what I am pointing to?! If so, you probably have an axe too. If not a twig in your eye ;)

51772-4_T-1i.jpg
 

TomcatViP

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Yes and no. It's vintage funny and a bit messy all around but it's a prototype.
But then look closely at the toolings, the safety protections to prevent injuries and the fact that you have simultaneous operations. This illustrates the point I wanted: the lack of investments.

Those guys probably championed their happy hours time long past their 60s
 

Jemiba

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It's probably hard for everyone, to keep a certain bias for or against something out of a thread.
But please, stay with the original theme, and don't mix it up with discussions about the French
arms export policy ! Just a clue, this thread principally still is a NEWS ONLY one, though this wasn't
enforced during the last time anymore.
Must admit, that I don't really understand the discussion, which, to my opinion, centered around the
statement, that France is selling military equipment, especially aircraft at dumping prices. I absolutely
don't want to intervene, but trying to prove, that Dassault is building its military jet aircraft without
investment into production facilities, perhaps isn't a consistent argument for this statement ?
 

TomcatViP

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You know, recently I also made non-ecstatic remarks on SpaceX, Boeing, LM, B.O and, I guess, many more, but no one on those threads boxed me as an hatter, anti-whatever or vilified me. Being stained every time I try to make a constructive remark in that thread is exhausting and quite not fair.

See the cart wheels and hand trucks being manually pushed from the back end of the hangar (and it's a big one, I can tell) for every items that need to be installed. See the non-actuated hand tools. Look at the way both engines are installed and multiply the time lost per one hundred... Look at the lack of safety protection (if you do this once, that's perfectly ok. But one hundred time on a production line?!).

There is nothing to be surprised of their meager cadences. Those are production rate sinks and often an amphetamine shots for quality escapes...
 

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TomcatViP

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Here is an example of what Dassault was about in the early 2000's when modern production lines and equipments were the focus of investments (this is their wings construction plant a couple of miles from their main assembly lines). Notice that all the robotics were relatively new at the time in aerospace and the main difficulty lied in adapting assembly tolerances from the automotive industry where most of those robots were sourced from (hence the guiding plates (the shiny cover plates that guide accurately the robot's drill (or other tools) to the right place).

As you can see, the entire assembly use powered equipments and operator safety and ergonomic are taken into consideration at each step.

Hence notice how there is no place to picture an horse carriage here...

View: https://youtu.be/6iHqtk4736g
 
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Lascaris

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He said it live on national TV in his speech in the international fair of Thessaloniki, traditionally the annual speech there every September is one of the imost mportant political events of the year covering the government progress up to then and used to announced new measures as well, that's where the initial order of 18 machines was announced last year. Exact turn of phrase was "here I announced last year the purchase of 18 Rafales, which will soon become 24".

I was waiting to see if he'd announce a winner for the frigate program... got official confirmation for the rumors already around for more Rafales instead. Bad news for DCN good for Dassault and HAF. Sooner or later I expect another 12...
 

Deltafan

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Thanks Lascaris.

First article (from India) that I found :


Mitsotakis spoke at the opening of the International Thessaloniki Fair, where the Prime Minister traditionally evaluates the previous year and announces the economic plan for the next year.

Arguing that Athens carried out an active diplomacy and increased its defense power against the national problems encountered last year, Prime Minister Mitsotakis reminded that he announced that 18 Rafale-type fighter jets will be purchased last year, and noted that this number will increase to 24 in the near future.
 

Lascaris

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Thanks Lascaris.

First article (from India) that I found :


Mitsotakis spoke at the opening of the International Thessaloniki Fair, where the Prime Minister traditionally evaluates the previous year and announces the economic plan for the next year.

Arguing that Athens carried out an active diplomacy and increased its defense power against the national problems encountered last year, Prime Minister Mitsotakis reminded that he announced that 18 Rafale-type fighter jets will be purchased last year, and noted that this number will increase to 24 in the near future.
Here from the very reliable Greek Flight & Space magazine, in Greek of course

You'll note that the older article linked at the end of the present one, written back in late May was talking about Greece being close to ordering 6 new Rafale F4 and discussing participation in FCAS program as well. Which if it happens, likely with 5-10% from the Greek point of view will be even bigger news and makes absolute sense, Greece has bought 3 generations of French fighters so far, it is the way to bet that when SCAF comes around it will be bought too so why not look ahead and get into its development? We should had done this with Rafale from 1985, not to mention taken up Dassault in 1972 on their proposal for a 20% share in Mirage F1 industrial work.
 

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Would be great to have an air force such as the Greek's join the FCAS program. That could only injects more operationally minded momentum in the project.

Last but not least, regarding the "used" Rafale and the incredible bargain that this has proved to be, as said by the Greeks themselves, it might strike more the minds:
First of all, in terms of the used 12 aircraft that we have already bought, as well as the 6 new ones, if you remember, we were the first to write that everything will be at the F3R level. For those who believed in various nonsense about obsolete fighters, we will say that the Rafale F3R has just acquired Initial Operational Capability. This means that our French friends handed over to us within 6 months the top fighter aircraft of their country. Since this move by France, the air balance in the Aegean has changed in favor of Greece.
(translated from the link above)
 

Archibald

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Thanks Lascaris.

First article (from India) that I found :


Mitsotakis spoke at the opening of the International Thessaloniki Fair, where the Prime Minister traditionally evaluates the previous year and announces the economic plan for the next year.

Arguing that Athens carried out an active diplomacy and increased its defense power against the national problems encountered last year, Prime Minister Mitsotakis reminded that he announced that 18 Rafale-type fighter jets will be purchased last year, and noted that this number will increase to 24 in the near future.
Here from the very reliable Greek Flight & Space magazine, in Greek of course

You'll note that the older article linked at the end of the present one, written back in late May was talking about Greece being close to ordering 6 new Rafale F4 and discussing participation in FCAS program as well. Which if it happens, likely with 5-10% from the Greek point of view will be even bigger news and makes absolute sense, Greece has bought 3 generations of French fighters so far, it is the way to bet that when SCAF comes around it will be bought too so why not look ahead and get into its development? We should had done this with Rafale from 1985, not to mention taken up Dassault in 1972 on their proposal for a 20% share in Mirage F1 industrial work.

Did the Greeks ever considered the Mirage III ? Just being curious...
 

Flyaway

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Would be great to have an air force such as the Greek's join the FCAS program. That could only injects more operationally minded momentum in the project.

Last but not least, regarding the "used" Rafale and the incredible bargain that this has proved to be, as said by the Greeks themselves, it might strike more the minds:
First of all, in terms of the used 12 aircraft that we have already bought, as well as the 6 new ones, if you remember, we were the first to write that everything will be at the F3R level. For those who believed in various nonsense about obsolete fighters, we will say that the Rafale F3R has just acquired Initial Operational Capability. This means that our French friends handed over to us within 6 months the top fighter aircraft of their country. Since this move by France, the air balance in the Aegean has changed in favor of Greece.
(translated from the link above)
I imagine Team Tempest would be looking at additional partners as the same place as FCAS would.
 

Lascaris

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You'll note that the older article linked at the end of the present one, written back in late May was talking about Greece being close to ordering 6 new Rafale F4 and discussing participation in FCAS program as well. Which if it happens, likely with 5-10% from the Greek point of view will be even bigger news and makes absolute sense, Greece has bought 3 generations of French fighters so far, it is the way to bet that when SCAF comes around it will be bought too so why not look ahead and get into its development? We should had done this with Rafale from 1985, not to mention taken up Dassault in 1972 on their proposal for a 20% share in Mirage F1 industrial work.

Did the Greeks ever considered the Mirage III ? Just being curious...
Actually... yes. The sent a team to test fly Mirage IIIE in 1968 and apparently came close to buying a pair of squadrons, at least 30 machines, afterwards. Some delays were incurred, Nixon in the meantime made available F-4E and Dassault also switched his sale pitch to Mirage F1 by 1971-72 he was offering the 20% industrial share mentioned to get the Greeks to sign. Which IMO the colonels were stupid to refuse... when they did buy Mirage F1 two years later anyway. Not least if the order had come in 1972 the first squadron would be available over the Aegean in July 1974... and by every account Mirage F1 was the best interceptor in the area till F-16 and Mirage 2000 showed up and even against them it remained very dangerous in a dogfight.
 

H_K

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The Mirage F1 was not superior to the F-4E.
That statement deserves to be qualified. In the pure air superiority role (fighter vs fighter) the Mirage F1 had many advantages over the F-4E, including superior weapons (Magic 1 vs. Aim-9B, 30mm Defa gun vs 20mm Vulcan, later Super 530F vs Aim-7F) and maneuverability, also being much harder to spot visually etc. It would probably come ahead in any head-to-head engagement or against contemporary Migs.

In the early 70s for example the Israelis were perfectly comfortable leaving air superiority and fighter escort to their Mirage IIIs while their F-4Es focused on bombing. The F1 was a step up from the MIII so…

Not to mention the F1 being a lot more affordable and easy to maintain than the F-4E.

The F-4E however was better as a multi-role fighter bomber and as a bomber interceptor, where larger payload and a sophisticated 2-crew weapons system would come in handy.
 
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