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Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

helmutkohl

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According to newspapers from Hrvatska

Deliveries start in 2024
oldest aircraft is only 10 years old
they are ex French Rafale F3R

I remember in 2010, there were all these articles asking.. Why cant the Rafale secure one export? will it end up being like the Viggen.
As the Typhoon took all the exports in 2000 - 2010s
now its reversed, 2010s -20s its Rafales!

except Qatar.. they buying everything.. Rafales, typhoons, eagles, just waiting for the F-35 and Gripens now
 

TomcatViP

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More details concerning Rafale offer to Croatia:
- 930M€ for 12 airframe (around 60M€ per airframe if we deduce from that amount 200M€ for the weapons: a 50% bargain from the selling price (poor India)).
- 9000hr service life from 2024 onward (that's the entire Rafale guaranteed life! Not bad for a used airframe).
- delivered in two batches: 6 in 2024 and 6 in 2025
- Competing bid from LM confirmed as being a 1.5B€ for 12 brand new and better equipped F-16V

 

Deltafan

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To be confirmed once more again (and even more than the other things to be confirmed for the Rafale orders, as it's for some years...)

 

helmutkohl

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More details concerning Rafale offer to Croatia:
- 930M€ for 12 airframe (around 60M€ per airframe if we deduce from that amount 200M€ for the weapons: a 50% bargain from the selling price (poor India)).
I would imagine that's because India got a new more advanced version?
Croatia got old ones.

back to the F4s are there any visual differences between them and the older variants?
 

TomcatViP

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On 18 May 2021, the first Rafale B with serial 101 for the Elliniki Polemiki Aeroporia (HAF, Hellenic Air Force) was photographed whilst flying from Base Aérienne 125 (BA 125) Istres-Le Tubé in the south of France.
Greece_Rafale_A.Gonzales_480.jpg


And as Air forces gathered around Dassault for fresh supplies, Mr Macron broke the Rafale in pieces and all air forces went their own way satiated... (nearly)
 
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Lascaris

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On 18 May 2021, the first Rafale B with serial 101 for the Elliniki Polemiki Aeroporia (HAF, Hellenic Air Force) was photographed whilst flying from Base Aérienne 125 (BA 125) Istres-Le Tubé in the south of France.
Greece_Rafale_A.Gonzales_480.jpg


And as Air forces gathered around Dassault for fresh supplies, Macron broke the Rafale in pieces and all air forces went their own way satiated... (nearly)
And another view

1621780433900.png

Now on to the additional order. :cool:
 

Alek

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The Su-35 deal were supposed to be financed through loan from BNP Paribas. I dont know tho if this potential Rafale deal would use the same bank.
Almost true, but contract was signed in 2018, but after the news about CAATSA and little pressure from the third site Indonesia started to delay this project. Russia made new proposal with the usage of new bank, not BNP Paribas. Because BNP didn't want to be involved in connections with Russian companies. But unfortunately the things aren't moving.
 
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Archibald

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It has been exactly 20 years to the day since the first Rafale F1 entered service with the Aéronavale onboard CdG.

Flotille 12F - May 18, 2001. Only 18 months before they were still flying Crusaders. And nearly four decades earlier, Crusaders had replaced vintage WWII F4U Corsair !

 

TomcatViP

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Exercice Atlantic Trident 21, the plane spotters perspective (in Fr):

 
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TomcatViP

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4 shades of gray:

Atlantic_Trident_21_640.jpg


Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace (French Air and Space Force)
8x Rafale from EC-30 at BA118 Mont-de-Marsan *)
4x Rafale from EC-4 at BA113 Saint Dizier/Robinson *)
2x Mirage 2000D from EC-3 at BA133 Nancy/Ochey
4x Mirage 2000-5 from EC01.002 Cigognes at BA116 Luxeuil/St.Sauveur
2x Mirage 2000C RDI from EC02.005 Île de France at BA115 Orange/Caritat
4x Alphat Jet E from EC-8 at BA120 Cazaux
2x PC-21 from EAC-315 at BA709 Cognac/Châteaubernard
2x EC725R2 from EH01.067 Pyrénées at BA120 Cazaux
1x A400M from ET01.061 Touraine at BA123 Orléans/Bricy
2x C-130H from ET-61 at BA123 Orléans/Bricy
1x E-3F from EDCA-36 at BA702 Avord
1x C-135FR or A330MRTT from ERV-31 at BA125 Istres/Le Tubé
Marine National (French Navy)
4x Rafale M from 12F at Landivisiau.
Royal Air Force (RAF)
4x Typhoon FRG4 fro XI(F) Squadron at RAF Coningsby
2x Voyager KC2/KC3 from 10/101 Squadron at RAF Brize Norton
1x Sentry AEW1 from 8 Squadron at RAF Waddington
US Air Force
2x KC 135R from 351st ARS at RAF Mildenhall
12x F-35A from 388th Fighter Wing ('HL') at Hill AFB (UT)
Operating from HMS Queen Elizabeth
4x F-35B from 617 Squadron Dambusters
4x F-35B from VMFA-211 The Wake Island Avengers ('CF')

*) EC-30 and EC-4 participated with more aircraft than officially reported. The following Rafales were seen at Mont-de-Marsan:

EC-30 Rafale C: 104/30-HH, 108/30-HS, 112/30-IQ, 113/30-IR, 121/30-IZ, 126/30-GE, 129/30-GH, 131/30-GJ and 134/30-GM
EC-30 Rafale B: 329/30-ID and 354/30-FU
EC-4 Rafale C: 111/4-IP
EC-4 Rafale B: 308/4-HA, 323/4-HT, 325/4-HX, 334/4-II, 335/4-IJ, 346/4-FM and 353/4-FS
 
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Deltafan

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Rafale officially winner in Croatia


Edit :

 

helmutkohl

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wow among the 4 contenders, Gripen, used israeli F-16b30s, F-16 (unknown block?) and Rafales

they narrowed it down to the F-16 and Rafale. Gripen didnt even make it to the finalist :confused:
 

Deltafan

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The 12 Rafale sold to Greece must be replaced:


Not the 12 for Croatia:


After Croatia, no new Rafale order for France

According to our information, the Ministry of the Armed Forces does not wish to order new devices but prefers to focus on the quality of the fleet over quantity. The Rafales will have new additional mission equipment (AESA radar, Talios pod, M88 engine) purchased using the proceeds from the sale of the used Rafale.

The future Croatian order will have an impact on the Air Force Rafale fleet. The target of 171 Rafale (including 129 for the Air Force) provided for at the end of the Military Programming Law (LPM) will ultimately not be reached, according to our information. The Ministry of the Armed Forces does not wish to order new devices but prefers to focus on the quality of the fleet over quantity. Thus, with the proceeds from the sale of the Air Force Rafales to Croatia (more than 999 million euros), the ministry wants to buy mission equipment, which is currently lacking in the Rafale in service.

To improve operational readiness as well as Rafale missions, the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) will in particular order additional AESA radars (Thales), which are gradually replacing the RBE2, Talios designation pods (Thales) and M88 engines (Safran). This will allow all the different standards of Rafale in service to be erased more quickly (currently the last standard is the F3R). These purchases therefore go beyond the forecasts included in the 2019-2025 LPM. Above all, this equipment will improve the performance of the Rafale. Typically, the Meteor air-to-air missile expresses its full performance with an AESA radar.

Rafale production line saved

Compared to Greece, the Ministry of the Armed Forces has changed its mind. This decision is clearly different from that taken after the Rafale contract in Greece (18 aircraft sold, including 12 used): the ministry then wanted to replace the 12 used Rafale sold in Athens with 12 new Rafale for the army of the air. As part of the Ravel program, he also planned to put 10 Rafale back in flight, which were parked by the Air Force and cannibalized in order to serve as spare parts for planes leaving on mission or in training. In theory, the Air Force will therefore benefit in the long term from 22 additional "in service" aircraft.

Finally, export contracts in Egypt and then in Greece as well as national orders have made it possible to restore visibility for several years to the Rafale assembly line of Dassault Aviation. There is no longer any urgency concerning the industrial production line of the tricolor combat aircraft, which sustains a network of 500 French companies.
 
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Deltafan

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Basil1891

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wow among the 4 contenders, Gripen, used israeli F-16b30s, F-16 (unknown block?) and Rafales

they narrowed it down to the F-16 and Rafale. Gripen didnt even make it to the finalist :confused:
Arms sales is more about politics than technical specs. Perhaps, Croats still have bad memories about some Swedish politicians (who pushed for arms embargo during last war). Besides, it was Gripen C, not E. So maybe they want to be more prepared against potential future threats from Serbs who are backed by Russia.
 
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H_K

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Official government statement: https://vlada.gov.hr/news/plenkovic...eterrent-for-the-next-30-40-years/32215?big=1


The Government assessed that France’s offer was the best and decided to procure 12 multi-role Rafale fighter aircraft (10 single-seat and 2 two-seat aircraft). (...)

The French offer, valued at 999 million euros, which will be realized through an agreement between the two governments (Government to Government), is the most favourable and provides for the most convenient payment in instalments that will not slow down our entry into the euro area. (...)

In addition to the aircraft, the French offer also includes:
- A flight simulator
- Basic weapons package
- Ground and test equipment
- Spare parts
- Staff training
according to the principle of “training of trainers”
- Comprehensive support from authorized representatives of manufacturers for a period of three years and a warranty of 12 months per each delivered aircraft, engine, other equipment and spare parts.



Note that per my estimates the replacement value of the aircraft is ~€700-750M (€80-85M per plane * 8-9 new build equivalents) and the support package is ~€150M (€4M per aircraft per year), so the Croatians seem to be getting a very good deal with « French Air Force » costs with no markup.

That said these prices do not include the additional contracts that they will need to sign with Dassault, MBDA etc for lifetime spares & support, additional weapons etc, so the €999 million is likely a misleading number used for political convenience.
 
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TomcatViP

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They are getting an incredible deal indeed.
But Trappier himself (Dassault CEO) publicly put the cost of each Rafale at 120M€ (citation and link in this thread).
So the equivalent price is more that of around 6 brand new airframe. Hence a 50% bargain (12 instead of 6) that comes ontop of all the incredible goodies you mentioned.
The cost for the AdlAE (or the Fr taxpayers) is then 12 times 120M hence ~1.5B€ plus the spare parts... plus the weapons... Plus the time devoided into training Dassault's customers...
 
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Hlf_themax

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If that's a good news for the Croats, the same can't be said for the Frenchs.

Let's update the Macron's equation:
12+12= -24
All rafales that have been taken from the french air force and sold to Greece will be replaced by new ones, and we can expect the same to happen for those sold to the Croats.
 

TomcatViP

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If that's a good news for the Croats, the same can't be said for the Frenchs.

Let's update the Macron's equation:
12+12= -24
All rafales that have been taken from the french air force and sold to Greece will be replaced by new ones, and we can expect the same to happen for those sold to the Croats.
In a snap of a finger and at no extra cost obviously...
 
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Deltafan

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The planes intended for the Croatian forces will be taken from the French fleet one year before delivery. This "loss" of operational capacity will be compensated "in a second phase, but beyond 2025, with a new order for Rafale to the new F4 standard, which has just completed a first test flight", it is pointed out. at Florence Parly's office.
 

H_K

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They are getting an incredible deal indeed.
But Trappier himself (Dassault CEO) publicly put the cost of each Rafale at 120M€ (citation and link in this thread).
So the equivalent price is more that of around 6 brand new airframe. Hence a 50% bargain (12 instead of 6) that comes ontop of all the incredible goodies you mentioned.
The cost for the AdlAE (or the Fr taxpayers) is then 12 times 120M hence ~1.5B€ plus the spare parts... plus the weapons... Plus the time devoided into training Dassault's customers...
I went through the whole thread and couldn’t find the post you mention?

I’m fairly familiar with official and Dassault statements about Rafale costs, and AFAIK Trappier has never said such a thing.
 

TomcatViP

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"Une centaine" is not 100. It's 100 + a delta. 120 came from a rounded value sourced out of the contract referenced in the reference.

If I say to you I weight "une centaine" of kilogrammes and I am an honest mathematician, it means I am probably around 149kg ;)

And that's even before FB...
 
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TomcatViP

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One of the four diplomats said French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly was upset by Stoltenberg's decision to go public in February with the outline of his proposal. Stoltenberg met Macron in Paris on May 21, praising the French president for France's "significant defence investment".
 

TomcatViP

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Not less. Otherwise, the closest inferior is 9 dizaines (90 something- usually expressed as 8 dozen like in english) etc... Une centaine equates anything b/w 100 and 200 but mathematically it's capped by 149.999999.

It should be 6ème (5th grade) level unless things have drastically changed.
 

Deltafan

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Things never changed...








 
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H_K

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Official Croatian gov. statement:

« The offer of the French Republic envisages the delivery of 12 twin-engine aircraft (ten single-seater and two two-seater) Rafale in the F3-R standard, with a remaining resource of about 3800 hours of 7000 hours and with a potential extension of service life up to 9000 hours »


So that means that ~35% to ~45% of the aircrafts’ service life has been used up and the 12 used Rafales are roughly equivalent to 6.5 to 7.7 new build Rafales.
 

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