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Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

Foo Fighter

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Indian aircraft being transferred to India, I would hope the Indians pay.
 

TomcatViP

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@helmutkohl : Yes, they are to be flown by the IAF. So fuel cost might be paid to the UAE by the IAF but then compensated by the airframer, hence Dassault. Depends on contract.

Here we know that Dassault was to deliver each airframe to the IAF in India since aircraft were to be upgraded there - (seems everybody forgot that). We also know that French MoD Mme Parly specifically addressed the situation requesting that any future airframe transfer to other nations should not impair the already stretched-out AdlAE logistic capacities otherwise than by being financially compensated (read thread 1 year back)... Something that had yet to be put in place.

I guess that we are day one for that. But in any way, there is little doubt that Rafale bound to India will be flown in concert with French KC-135FR or MRTT to Dhafra (?) in the UAE.
 

H_K

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Used airframe... Used airframe
By definition every aircraft becomes used the moment they taxi from their assembly hangar. Luckily the software updates (mostly) don’t care.

Otherwise imagine all the hand-wringing around the world over the 600+ used F-35s that are still waiting for software updates to bring them to the same level as a Rafale. ;-)
 

helmutkohl

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Alert5 has this nice infographic of the upgrades

rafale1.png
 
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Archibald

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@H_K : Well, as often, you read my comments with quite an angle.
"Used airframe... Used airframe" is obviously to be read on an air of Atmosphère:

View: https://youtu.be/KYic1U1a6yw

"Used airframes... used airframes... est ce qu'j'ai une gueule d' "used airframe", moi ?"

for a woman for sure, being treated of "used airframe"... not very gracious...
 

TomcatViP

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"Granted, no black boxes on Swiss Rafale" [nearly] says French MoD:
«Il n’y aura pas de boîte noire» dans le jet de l’avionneur français Dassault, a-t-elle appuyé. Ni dans le système de défense sol-air SAMP/T, du consortium français Eurosam, également en cours d’évaluation par Armasuisse et opposé au système américain Patriot.

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"There will be no black box" in the jet of French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, she said. Nor in the SAMP / T ground-to-air defense system, from the French consortium Eurosam, also being evaluated by Armasuisse and opposed to the American Patriot system.
 

TomcatViP

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More used Rafale offered to Ukraine:

As it goes AdlAE's pilots would soon have to request the help of Greenpeace to learn how to properly chain themselves to their aircraft.
 

Deltafan

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More used Rafale offered to Ukraine:

As it goes AdlAE's pilots would soon have to request the help of Greenpeace to learn how to properly chain themselves to their aircraft.
Don't see any "used" Rafale in the text.
 

TomcatViP

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You would have to read past the headline:

It is reported that France will offer to deliver used and new Rafale fighter aircraft built by Dassault Aviation for the Ukrainian Air Force for a replacement for the country’s aging MiG-29 fleet
 

Archibald

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Unbelievable... ! :oops::oops:

God damn it, this more and more looks like a "Rafale's Black Friday"

Tout doit disparaitre ! Rabais de 80% ! Pour deux Rafales achetés, le troisième offert... et si vous trouvez moins cher, on vous rembourse la différence !

Sooner rather than later, second-hand Rafales will be offered as "bonus present" in washing powder packages (le cadeau bonus - LMAO) or cereals boxes ROTFL
 

kaiserd

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I don’t think a Ukrainian sale going to happen anyway; something like a F-16V sale paid for by US military aid would appear to be a more likely scenario.
 

helmutkohl

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More used Rafale offered to Ukraine:

As it goes AdlAE's pilots would soon have to request the help of Greenpeace to learn how to properly chain themselves to their aircraft.
there is a whatif for everything!

UAFRAFALE01_zps4caaca20.jpg
 

TomcatViP

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More on Rafale push from Fr Gov in Ukraine with an alleged 1.5B€ loan guaranteed at 85%
(Also some details of the slow pace of delivery of H225 from Airbus).
Since Ukraine is cash-strapped, the Rafale deal, like other French defence contracts in Ukraine, would be 85% guaranteed by France. The French finance ministry has already earmarked €1.5 billion to cover this.
 

stealthflanker

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Integrating Ukrainian weapons and avionics to Rafale or whatever they decide to buy would be a great win-win.

The Ukrainian industry would get the much needed update of knowledge regarding working together with NATO or non Russian basic systems and basically new work. Neptune can then have Air launched variant (I wonder why they didnt made one for the Su-27's).
 

Deltafan

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It is reported that France will offer to deliver used and new Rafale fighter aircraft built by Dassault Aviation for the Ukrainian Air Force for a replacement for the country’s aging MiG-29 fleet
OK, you are right and I am wrong on this.

But as with Greece, France will be able to replace second-hand planes with new planes for its Air Force.

IF France one day sells Rafale to Ukraine...
 

Deltafan

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You would have to read past the headline:

It is reported that France will offer to deliver used and new Rafale fighter aircraft built by Dassault Aviation for the Ukrainian Air Force for a replacement for the country’s aging MiG-29 fleet

OK, you are right and I am wrong on this.

But as with Greece, France will be able to replace second-hand planes with new planes for its Air Force.

IF France one day sells Rafale to Ukraine...
 

TomcatViP

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OK, you are right and I am wrong on this.

But as with Greece, France will be able to replace second-hand planes with new planes for its Air Force.

IF France one day sells Rafale to Ukraine...
But remember that they would have to be bought again by French taxpayers ontop of the credits line added to ease Ukraine buy. It's roughly another 4.5B€ in total that would have to be found somewhere else (1.5 for Ukr and 2*1.5 for new airframe).
 
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Archibald

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I appreciate that you stand up in the light of truth avoiding the easy path of obtuse denial.

What the heck did I just read ??!!
 

TomcatViP

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Something tells me the UK MoD has missed a trick by not selling off its Tranche 1 Typhoons instead of 'reducing to produce' (aka scrapping in non-management speak).
They would have loved the Typhoon: fastser interceptor they could reasonably get beyond Migs and Sukhois (remember that Ukraine is a big country where top Mach can make a difference) and plenty of customization to do for their local industries.
Why didn't they make an offer?
 
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Deltafan

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OK, you are right and I am wrong on this.

But as with Greece, France will be able to replace second-hand planes with new planes for its Air Force.

IF France one day sells Rafale to Ukraine...
I appreciate that you stand up in the light of truth avoiding the easy path of obtuse denial.

But remember that they would have to be bought again by French taxpayers ontop of the credits line added to ease Ukraine buy. It's roughly another 4.5B€ in total that would have to be found somewhere else (1.5 for Ukr and 2*1.5 for new airframe).
"Obtuse denial", "remember" and "French taxpayers" ?
Please, would all participants here be gracious enough to discuss the Dassault
Rafale only, and not French arms policy, or maybe selling weapons to certain
customers at giveaway prices ? Probably interesting discussions, too, but as
the word "arms policy" already suggests, it would too easily stray into politics,
apart from the fact, that this thread principally still is a NEWS ONLY thread ...
For the usual suspects in this thread, this is a warning, the second for one of them.
For all others, who might be tempted to jump on this bandwagon, of course, too !
 
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H_K

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But remember that they would have to be bought again by French taxpayers ontop of the credits line added to ease Ukraine buy. It's roughly another 4.5B€ in total that would have to be found somewhere else

As we discussed before, the economics of selling used airframes can’t be simplified that way.

It’s like happy hour at a restaurant: every discounted drink you « give away » at a « loss » generates a stream of additional cash flows from additional food, tips, and drink orders after happy hour. It’s great business, which is why it is so common in the business world.

Drinks = Rafales (used AND new)
Food = weapons (MBDA), simulators, ground equipment and other necessary gear
Tips = 30+ years of training and spare parts

Like any good mafia boss, the French government gets a 50% cut on all those cash flows through direct taxes and an additional cut of the indirect economic activity generated at nearby businesses (since this mafia boss also owns the cabs, movie theaters, night clubs... everything!). They even get a cut on the credit card lending fees paid by the consumer...

The matter of how much of this revenue stream makes it back to the French Air Force to keep it whole is a mere matter of paper accounting... this should not be seen as an expense per se, but as a simple reallocation of part of the cash surplus generated.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters to ensure a profitable sale is the final bill paid by the Ukrainians... over 30 years this will be >> the cost of new Rafales, so the overall deal will be profitable.
 
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Lascaris

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Unbelievable... ! :oops::oops:

God damn it, this more and more looks like a "Rafale's Black Friday"

Tout doit disparaitre ! Rabais de 80% ! Pour deux Rafales achetés, le troisième offert... et si vous trouvez moins cher, on vous rembourse la différence !

Sooner rather than later, second-hand Rafales will be offered as "bonus present" in washing powder packages (le cadeau bonus - LMAO) or cereals boxes ROTFL
If there is a fire sale we are buying. Pack another two dozen please. Same delivery address in Athens. :p
 

Hood

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A lot of deals involve the seller nation's money.
For example, the recent UK Defence and Security Industrial Strategy published last week explicitly mentions that Qatar's 9 Hawks and 24 Typhoons were brought with a support package £5bn of UK Export Finance. UKEF has £50bn of loans and contract bonds (plus £10bn for Covid mitigation) to help support exports with access to finance or insurance when the private sector won't or can't take on the risks. UKEF operates at no net cost to the British taxpayer.

I am no expert on French government procurement, but I would assume that a similar fund would be in place. The money gets paid back eventually.
Dassault keeps its factory open and the French AF gets new aircraft and Dassault gains by getting rid of old Rafales off its hands (no worries about stripping for parts repair or scrapping costs) and better still gets nations like Greece and Ukraine to pay support contracts on airframes that otherwise would eventually be sitting idle stripped of bits. The French government gets an instant hit of diplomatic prestige ("Here are some new fighters to help you out" looks better than, "you'll get a delivery slot in 5 years time, hope you can hold on till then"). Looks like a win-win to me.

Of course there is a balance between not selling the old stuff faster than you can build replacements and stumping up some loan cash up front. But hey, that's the reality of defence procurement. Hardly anyone is in a position where they can sell their stuff without stumping up some kind of credit deal. Still sounds a better deal than selling Sukhois for barrels of palm oil.
 

TomcatViP

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@Hood: you have to read fully what is written before embarking other in lengthy discussions.
First, the budgetary line is now needed since earlier Rafale sales generously compensated have dried down export financing mechanisms that generally are used for less onerous products (export industries have complained that those funds being not available anymore they've lost some of their competitive edge in their segments). You then have to understand that using those extensively backed funds for what they have no purpose generate profit losses and deprive French state from direct revenue.

Then the second aspect you've seemingly missed is the financial guarantee: 85%
Ukraine being at war, it is dubious than refinancing the portion of the loan that is guaranteed would be a priority if the situation locally worsen.
France is then increasing their own risk level in financing such sale.
It wouldn't be much of a problem if the risk was one time. But by requiring France to buy again new planes afterward, and this is my third point, it's, as exposed already very conversly (see post above) it's the dynamic of generating long term debts for private profit today that has a dubious meaning.
As written, this simply weaken future generations in their own right to then build a proper defense.

Last but not least, it's all the French defense posture that has to endure the brunt shock of such sales: lack of airframe, lack of training, loss of hard to source expertise (less airplane would invariably lead to reduced maintenance infrastructures), missed international objectives (see the situation in Mali with an under equipped projected forces - 30 helicopters in total with a large portion of the fleet having below 50% availability)), delayed programs leading to an increased lethality in opex, less reactivity with an over stretched AdlAE due to the lack of airframe...

Fourth, such financial backing of an export through divesting in-service assets amount to a subsidy to hide the lack of competitive pricing of Dassault-Aviation products. That could IMOHO could well be exposed to litigation.

Last but not least, as observed earlier, what would be the equipments that will then flow away from AdLAE inventory? How many more of those already scarce AESA radars? How much delay before the new sensors are fleetwide available? How many truncated pilot yearly flight hours resulting from the lack of airframe(remember that the last fatal Rafale crash was imparted on the lack of training)?



Less is less. There is no win win in losses.
 
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Grey Havoc

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Macron's successor is going to have a right mess on his or her hands and no mistake.
 

Archibald

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Even more if that person is Marine Fucking Le Pen (shudders).
 

TomcatViP

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Last batch of Rafale arrived in India (3 airframe) :

 
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helmutkohl

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according to this, 4 Greek pilots begin training on the Rafale
3 Mirage 2000 pilots
1 F-16 pilot

with all these Rafale operators also operating advanced American, Russian, and multi-European aircrafts, when can we expect pilot testimonies soon? :cool:


on a light hearted note,
what do you guys and girls think is the best looking French fighter aircraft?
The Mirage 2000
or the
Rafale?
 

TomcatViP

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M2K ;)

Also rumors around Dassault's CEO, Mr Trappier, taking the head of l'UIMM (metal worker association), leaving the GIFAS (French syndicate of military industries) and, my take only, the executive direction of Dassault.

 

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