Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

galgot said:
Maybe it's just that the Greeks wants more single-seaters than two-seaters. Not that Fr AF wants especially to get rid of the single seaters.
Don't know the exact numbers, long time I didn't check, but remember reading there are roughly as many Twin as mono seaters in the AdA, with the twin been more assigned to squadron responsible for nuke strike.
Click to expand...
Today :

-55 B + 47 C = 102 AA

After the sale of the 12 used to Greece (2 B + 10 C)

-53 B + 37 C = 90

Probably the replacement of these 12 used Rafale by 12 new will be 2 B and 10 C too.
 
Last edited:
Two videos (in French, sorry, and to click on Regarder sur YouTube) on the presentation of Dassault's 2020 annual results, by Eric Trappier. The second video concerns questions and answers with journalists. There are some other news on the Rafale.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_fN7oAJXh8


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcpMWcoVbI

I put the same videos in the FCAS topic

-All French Rafale will be converted to the F3-R standard in 2022 (27'55" to 28'08")

-For the building of Rafale, Dassault is returning to rate 1 (per month), since it was at rate 2 (28'43" to 28'53")
Then, contrary to what I had previously indicated, Dassault was therefore already at a rate of 2 (22 aircraft per year) instead of 1 (11 aircraft per year). But nothing was said about the 2026-2027 production gap (which, for the moment, still exists).
 
Last edited:
Air & Cosmos reports that the first Rafale for Greece will be B305. So this is one of the oldest Rafales, with about half its life remaining (delivered in 2004, likely 4,000+ flight hours by now)

Each Rafale is brought to “pre-export” configuration, with the removal of 60 pieces of equipment (requiring 1,050 man hours). The total prep work required is 3,500 man hours (ie. a team of 14 men x 45 days). The airframe is then handed over to Dassault who adds back the missing equipment to bring the aircraft to customer spec.

I think this partly explains the “low” price for the used Rafales: these are very old, stripped down airframes. The French Air Force is holding onto a lot of parts that can be recycled into its spares inventory, leaving Dassault to make up for the rest with “new” spares that come out of its separate OEM contract.

air-cosmos.com

Comment l'Armée de l'Air choisit ses avions de combat Rafale pour la Grèce

La ministre des Armées, Florence Parly, a pu visualiser la concrétisation des décisions qu'elle a prises pour répondre dans des délais records au besoin grec en avions de combat Dassault Rafale.
air-cosmos.com air-cosmos.com
 
Over 4000 flight hr in 16 years would be 250 hr per year at 100% availability, something the Rafale never reached. Given an historic averaged rate of 50% (to ease computation), the total Flight time for that airframe could more accurately be estimated around 125hr per year, hence a total of 2000hr.
...
In effect, in that report, it is stated that Rafale must fly on average 360hr every TWO years.

Then Rafale airframe are good for 8k hr if my memory stands right. And that airframe could have logged only a maximum of 3000 hr at 100% availability...

You also claim that by removing hardware, the aircraft capability is degraded. This is not factually correct when the removal of parts is clearly mentioned as being elements of the nuclear pack of the airframe (what points to the question of how are really impacted Fr strategic forces?). There is no relation with any degraded mode; the report even stating that the airframe would go through an extensive upgrade process of 3 times the man hour needed to remove all elements mentioned above...

Unclear is the state of the radar pod. Since nothing is stated, it would be prudent to assess that no new aesa antenna are produced and that every airframe bound for Greece will fly away with one of the rare aesa pod available for both French services (AdlAE and Navy)...

But effectively, it's a good point that MoD was there since a lot of manhours and resources are apparently consumed in the process.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Le MCO du Rafale : "ça marche bien"

Ca tombe en pleine période de campagnes export (et à la veille de la visite de la minarm sur la
lemamouth.blogspot.com lemamouth.blogspot.com

Thursday March 4 2021
Rafale's MCO (Maintenance in Operational Condition): "it works well"

This falls in the middle of the export campaigns (and on the eve of the minarm's visit to the BA113/113th Air-Base), the minarm (French Defense Minister) told the press this morning how good it was with the results obtained by Dassault Aviation on vertical support for the Rafale, as part of RAVEL (RAfale VErticaLisé/verticalized).
This contract will consume 3.1 billion euros from 2019 to 2028. And for the minarm, it is responsible for the improvement observed in the fleet. 82 Rafale and Rafale Marine were available in February (82 / 143 = 57%) according to this source, against only 70 a year earlier (49%).

RAVEL is targeting 80% availability for the industrial level on the 102 Rafale Air (less soon 12 Rafale sold to Greece) and 41 Rafale Marine. The Greek contract would even lead to 83% availability, at a term that is not known. Obviously, we must understand this figure on the industrial level for which Dassault is responsible. With the vicissitudes sometimes encountered at the NSO (first of the three levels of maintenance), the figure is obviously lower. Even if, in operations, it can be much higher. Remember that 11 Rafale are permanently deployed in the Levant and the UAE, and 20 on Charles-de-Gaulle.

RAVEL does not yet concern the engine component, which is dealt with separately.

"We are satisfied but cautious, explains the minarm. On the Rafale, it works well, with manufacturers who have mobilized because they understand that the availability of an aircraft is a strong marker when we want to export it. Organization has been made more efficient over the years (thanks to) three-year efforts a more aggressive worksite on the subject. The challenge is to maintain ourselves, we will try to progress and verify that Dassault Aviation, over time, holds the performances to which he is committed ".

According to the minarm, the Rafale Air fleet flies 23,000 hours per year (23 000 / 102 = 225 h), and the Marine fleet, 9,000 (9 000 / 41 = 219).

In the same briefing, in response to a question from your servant, the minarm confirmed the information revealed here, on the forthcoming holding of an AAE (Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace) raid (4 Rafale + 1 A-330 MRTT + 1 A-400M) in Polynesia.
Click to expand...


www.air-cosmos.com

MCO : Dassault Aviation veut encore faire mieux

La mise en place de la verticalisation du MCO du Rafale a permis à Dassault, à la DMAé et aux Forces d'assurer une disponibilité des avions de combat meilleure que prévue.
www.air-cosmos.com www.air-cosmos.com
October 15, 2020

(...)
The progress report drawn up by the Minister of the Armed Forces, Florence Parly, on the reform of the maintenance in operational condition (MCO) of the equipment of the Forces is an opportunity for Dassault Aviation to emphasize that the implementation of the verticalization of the MCO of Air Force Rafale fighter jets ensured 76% availability of the Rafale, better than the 73% provided for in the contract known as Ravel.
(...)
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
TomcatViP said:
4000 flight hr in 16 years would be 250 hr per year at 100% availability, something the Rafale never reached. Given an historic averaged rate of 50% (to ease computation), the total Flight time for that airframe could more accurately be estimated around 125hr per year, hence a total of 2000hr.
Click to expand...

1) The Rafale fleet leaders had 3,300+ hours as of mid 2018 (Dassault website). These are the first B-models, delivered in 2004 (since the earlier M1-M10 were stored for several years pending their F1-> F3 retrofit).
-> That’s ~235hr per year.

2) Another datapoint is that the Rafale maintenance deal is for 380,000 hours over 10 years.
-> That’s ~240hr per year for a fleet of ~160 aircraft (growing from 140 in 2019 to 180+ in 2028)

3) Another datapoint is the one quoted by Delta Fan above: 23,000hrs per year for 99 Rafale Air (excl. B301, B302 and C101 that remain with Dassault) and 9,000hrs for 41 Rafale M.
-> That’s 232hr and 220hr per year respectively

4) Finally the Chief of the French Air Force, General Lanata himself, stated in 2016 that the Rafale Air fleet usage had increased from 250 to 275hr per year. http://www.senat.fr/compte-rendu-commissions/20161010/etr.html

These numbers are remarkably consistent IMHO.
 
Last edited:
@Deltafan : bringing projection or last year availability numbers doesn't help when those numbers were indeed the focus of late MoD actions to improve Rafale availability and change their historically low numbers.
Numbers that were reported here before, averaged above at 50% (they were slightly better in fact but not much).

@H_K : the problem with Gen Lanata numbers are well known and were discussed extensively before...
They are the result of a small fleet with a very high availability (deployed) where contractors put all their efforts leaving the rest of the fleet devoid of the same attention. As a result, home fleet flew much less resulting in training being compromised as was mission effectiveness throughout all the panel of missions of this multi-role aircraft.
Late MoD Parly took the bull by the horns and pushed for more parts, less cost, more maintenance hours with an overall positive result that start to show its effectiveness (beyond 70% availability rate, less training accident...).

Anyhow, if you go to your local car dealer and buy a used one with 60 000km*, you'd hardly contest that the car is still new unless you just bought a 1970 Fiat (outside of Italy)!


*60000being 1/3rd of 2000000
 
Last edited:
TomcatViP said:
@Deltafan : bringing projection or last year availability numbers doesn't help when those numbers were indeed the focus of late MoD actions to improve Rafale availability and change their historically low numbers.
Numbers that were reported here before, averaged above at 50% (they were slightly better in fact but not much).
Click to expand...
This is precise information on a given period, in a NEWS ONLY topic. It is up to all the forumers to judge their interest or not.

Moreover, the information of March 4 (and even that of October 15) may be of interest to forumers regardless of what has been said before. Not all were necessarily familiar with the RAVEL program.
 
Last edited:
I understand now that your post should be seen as being decolerrated with the then incurring discussion around the age of airframes bound for Greece.
Please see only my comment through that optic.
 
@TomcatViP Availability and flight hours are two very different concepts and one cannot easily make inferences about one from the other.

Simple reason is that availability is a point-in-time measure (eg. every day at noon) whereas flight hours are a cumulative measure over a certain duration, driven by a fleet’s operational and training requirements. Since there are 8760 hours in a year, even a fleet with very low availability can in theory fly hundreds of hours per airframe. Conversely, a fleet with 10 aircraft that are 100% available will not fly much if it only has 5 pilots or if there is no need to fly.

So in the case of Rafale (or any other fighter) the % availability cannot be used to estimate flight hours. There are however many good alternative ways.

Going back to fundamentals (which may be useful), for any NATO air force with ~1.5 pilots per frontline aircraft flying 180 hours per year, each front line aircraft will need to fly ~270 hours per year. With 20-30% of a fleet rotating through reserve/storage/deep maintenance and 70-80% in front line squadrons, that equates to 190-220 hours per aircraft per year. This aligns well with a typical fighter aircraft’s service life of 6,000-9,000 hours over 30-35 years... for good reason, as fleet managers want to get the maximum use of their expensive assets.

Basically it would be impossible for a NATO fighter fleet flying only 125hrs per airframe (as you estimate for Rafale) to meet its pilot training needs while at the same time making the best use of the aircraft’s full service life. So best to stick with the simplest explanation (Okram’s razor) that Rafales are indeed racking up the expected hours on track for their planned 7,000-9,000hr service life.

(The above is a general explanation but I think is helpful here to put in context the Rafale flying hours I’ve quoted in my previous posts).
 
Last edited:
No. Flight hours are planned in advance and have to fit inside a frame that depends of all actors involved. You tell your contractors (when involved) that they need to have enough manpower and parts for X flight hours per plane per year. It doesn't work the other way around and that where MoD Parly rightly put the focus, exactly where it was needed: longer term contract but contractor had to provide with the right amount of staffing and spare parts.

Then if at time T0 your plane is not able for your main mission and unable to fill a secondary one (if suitable), the plane is deemed not available and another one is brought on.
Hence, availability rate is a factored number of long term planned flying hours.

Those numbers are not independent.

Then, as you may have understood the factor is a number inferior to 1.

That leads us to the valid estimate for the total hours flown as the contracted numbers (360 for two years) time the yearly availability rate averaged and rounded to a conveniently chosen numbers of 0.5 to save us an headache (but it's too late now).

Regarding the comparison with pilot flight hours, not all training flight hours are done on Rafale, and two pilots can crew a plane. As you'd noticed, a lot of Rafale are 2 seaters.


EoA.
 
Last edited:
Your first paragraph is correct. Your second is incorrect. The reason is that planned flight hours already include a planning factor for availability.

No Air Force is going to aim for 100% availability or needs 100% availability to hit its plan. So even with say 50% availability the plan can typically still be achieved. Only if the availability is dramatically less than plan does it become a bottleneck... which does happen for some fleets with unique problems (like the French Army’s Tigre and NH90 helicopters) but is not the case of a mature, well run fleet like the French Air Force’s Rafale or Mirages.

The proof in the pudding is that the oldest Rafales are now getting to half their service life, following in the footsteps of the Mirages which are racking up over 6-7,000 flight hours over their lifetimes. Even with availability that may look low on paper.
 
Last edited:
You don't understand, if you pay someone to provide 200hr per year on your plane he would have his operation trimmed down to that number and no more.
Nobody works for free.
 
Last edited:
Next Rafale Shipment to India could be refueled by UAE's tankers:
A little over a year later as New Delhi prepares to fly at least four Rafale fighters from France to Ambala airbase, the UAE will again help out. Its air force will deploy its Airbus 330 multi-role transport tankers (MRTT) later this month to provide mid-air refuelling to the Rafale jets so that the fourth-generation-plus fighters can fly non-stop to India. The UAE will extend the facility to the next batch of eight fighters that are expected to be flagged off from France by the visiting Indian Air Chief RKS Bhadauria in April. This would enable the Indian Air Force to activate the second base of the Rafale fighters
Click to expand...

www.hindustantimes.com

Deepening India-UAE defence cooperation enlarges India's footprint in West Asia

The UAE, which has deported more than 100 fugitives to India over the last few years, has also helped India with real-time intelligence from Iraq and Syria in the past. This month, its air force will refuel the Rafale fighter jets flying in from France.
www.hindustantimes.com www.hindustantimes.com

UAE to deploy Airbus 330 to provide mid-air fuelling for Indian Rafales

The UAE is reportedly said to deploy its Airbus 330 multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) tankers later this month to provide ‘mid-air fuelling’ to the Rafale jets.
www.airforce-technology.com www.airforce-technology.com
 
out of curiosity, who pays for that fuel as well the tanker operations?
Dassault? the Indians? UAE?
 
Indian aircraft being transferred to India, I would hope the Indians pay.
 
@helmutkohl : Yes, they are to be flown by the IAF. So fuel cost might be paid to the UAE by the IAF but then compensated by the airframer, hence Dassault. Depends on contract.

Here we know that Dassault was to deliver each airframe to the IAF in India since aircraft were to be upgraded there - (seems everybody forgot that). We also know that French MoD Mme Parly specifically addressed the situation requesting that any future airframe transfer to other nations should not impair the already stretched-out AdlAE logistic capacities otherwise than by being financially compensated (read thread 1 year back)... Something that had yet to be put in place.

I guess that we are day one for that. But in any way, there is little doubt that Rafale bound to India will be flown in concert with French KC-135FR or MRTT to Dhafra (?) in the UAE.
 
TomcatViP said:
Used airframe... Used airframe
Click to expand...
By definition every aircraft becomes used the moment they taxi from their assembly hangar. Luckily the software updates (mostly) don’t care.

Otherwise imagine all the hand-wringing around the world over the 600+ used F-35s that are still waiting for software updates to bring them to the same level as a Rafale. ;-)
 
Alert5 has this nice infographic of the upgrades

rafale1.png
 
Last edited:
TomcatViP said:
@H_K : Well, as often, you read my comments with quite an angle.
"Used airframe... Used airframe" is obviously to be read on an air of Atmosphère:

View: https://youtu.be/KYic1U1a6yw
Click to expand...

"Used airframes... used airframes... est ce qu'j'ai une gueule d' "used airframe", moi ?"

for a woman for sure, being treated of "used airframe"... not very gracious...
 
"Granted, no black boxes on Swiss Rafale" [nearly] says French MoD:
«Il n’y aura pas de boîte noire» dans le jet de l’avionneur français Dassault, a-t-elle appuyé. Ni dans le système de défense sol-air SAMP/T, du consortium français Eurosam, également en cours d’évaluation par Armasuisse et opposé au système américain Patriot.

--------------

"There will be no black box" in the jet of French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, she said. Nor in the SAMP / T ground-to-air defense system, from the French consortium Eurosam, also being evaluated by Armasuisse and opposed to the American Patriot system.
Click to expand...
amp.tdg.ch

Achat de nouveaux jets – Protection des données: la France défend son avion de combat

Après sa rencontre avec la conseillère fédérale Viola Amherd lundi à Berne, la ministre française des Armées a déclaré que la propriété souveraine des données sera respectée par la France si la Suisse choisit l’avion de combat Rafale.
amp.tdg.ch amp.tdg.ch
 
You would have to read past the headline:

It is reported that France will offer to deliver used and new Rafale fighter aircraft built by Dassault Aviation for the Ukrainian Air Force for a replacement for the country’s aging MiG-29 fleet
Click to expand...
 
Unbelievable... ! :oops::oops:

God damn it, this more and more looks like a "Rafale's Black Friday"

Tout doit disparaitre ! Rabais de 80% ! Pour deux Rafales achetés, le troisième offert... et si vous trouvez moins cher, on vous rembourse la différence !

Sooner rather than later, second-hand Rafales will be offered as "bonus present" in washing powder packages (le cadeau bonus - LMAO) or cereals boxes ROTFL
 
I don’t think a Ukrainian sale going to happen anyway; something like a F-16V sale paid for by US military aid would appear to be a more likely scenario.
 
More on Rafale push from Fr Gov in Ukraine with an alleged 1.5B€ loan guaranteed at 85%
(Also some details of the slow pace of delivery of H225 from Airbus).
Since Ukraine is cash-strapped, the Rafale deal, like other French defence contracts in Ukraine, would be 85% guaranteed by France. The French finance ministry has already earmarked €1.5 billion to cover this.
Click to expand...
asiatimes.com

Rafale may have edge in Ukraine fighter stakes - Asia Times

The message was heard loud and clear in Washington and Paris — Ukraine is shopping for new fighter jets. Intelligence Online sources say Ukrainian
asiatimes.com asiatimes.com
 
Integrating Ukrainian weapons and avionics to Rafale or whatever they decide to buy would be a great win-win.

The Ukrainian industry would get the much needed update of knowledge regarding working together with NATO or non Russian basic systems and basically new work. Neptune can then have Air launched variant (I wonder why they didnt made one for the Su-27's).
 
It is reported that France will offer to deliver used and new Rafale fighter aircraft built by Dassault Aviation for the Ukrainian Air Force for a replacement for the country’s aging MiG-29 fleet
OK, you are right and I am wrong on this.

But as with Greece, France will be able to replace second-hand planes with new planes for its Air Force.

IF France one day sells Rafale to Ukraine...
 
TomcatViP said:
You would have to read past the headline:

It is reported that France will offer to deliver used and new Rafale fighter aircraft built by Dassault Aviation for the Ukrainian Air Force for a replacement for the country’s aging MiG-29 fleet
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

OK, you are right and I am wrong on this.

But as with Greece, France will be able to replace second-hand planes with new planes for its Air Force.

IF France one day sells Rafale to Ukraine...
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom