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Axis 1940 airliner dreams/projects

Skybolt

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Ok, in 1940 the war as just started or was about to start (for Italy and Japan) and things were going fairly well. In Germany and Italy airlines and governments started to plan for the expected post-war increase in air traffic, expecially on the Atlantic routes (sound familiar?).

Diffrently from the 1938-39 spate of competions (primarily Lufthansa, on which another topic soon), requests were for land-based planes... This tells probably something.

First project is the less known (in my view). In mid-1940 Italian LATI (later Aliitalia) asked for a trans-atlantic liner with pressurized cabin for 40 passengers or so. Piaggio (chief designer Casiraghi) responded with the P-127 and with the more conservative P-126 (derivative of the P-108).
P-127 had six in-line engines, four paired in the inboard nacelles. It was a wide-body (elliptical, that is) much reminiscent of the contemporary EF-100.
In 1941 Ministery of the Air gave its approval to the P-127 and work commenced on detailed desing and mock-up construction. In September 1943 detailed design had been finished and a mock-up of a section of the cabin (for seat-placement studies) was almost completed. Everithing seems disappeared in the ensuing chaos, but, don't despair yet...
 

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Skybolt

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Junkers EF-100. In the same 1940 Lufthansa sent out an RFP for a trans-ocean land-based airliner. Target was a payload of 20.000 kg on a distance of 9000 Km non-stop. Engines were six 2500 hps each Junkers Jumo 9-223 diesel. Cabin was pressurized and exploited the elliptical section to add some lift. Work was halted in 1941 od orders of RLM, only to be rresumed in 1942 to develop ea military derivative for long-range maritime recoinassance in support of U-Booten, only to be again cancelled at the end of the same year.
 

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Skybolt

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Focke-Wulf Trans-Ozean Project. This is he older of the 1940 airliners. It originated in June 1938 during the second trans-atlantic competion issued by Lufthansa (more on this in another post). All other proposals were seaplanes. Focke-Wulf answered to the part of the Lufthansa competiton covering an aircract covering the Frankfurt-New York direct route. Engines were four DB 9-606 coupled in-line engine of 2700 HPs each. Range was 7750 KM and top speed 700 KM/h. It is displayed in the first 3-view.
There were a score of proposed military variants, one of which, Variant "B", had the engine sited in the fuselage driving the propellers by extension shafts (third illustration, model photo)
Civilian version "L" was pressurized and had a longer fuselage and wider wings with 40 per cent more area than "A". Second 3-views should be this variant.
Focke-Wulf took more than a year to complete the technical proposal, which was submitted to the RLM on February 1940 and so it can be viewed as a competitor of the EF-100. RLM approved the project only to cancel it in 1941. In the same 1941 Focke-Wulf started work on a more straightforward development of the FW-200 Condor, but on this later.
 

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Antonio

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Wonderful :eek: ::) :p

Skybolt you're my idol!, thanks for info and pics
 

Skybolt

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Piaggio P-126. When in 1940 LATI issued an RFP for a transatlantic liner, Piaggio responded, besides the P-127, with two more projects. One was a very straghtforward, a civilian, minimum chage, version of the P-108B heavy bomber with a pressurized cabinr, and the second was a more modified version of the P-108B with a marine keel. In both cases passenger capacity on a North-Atlantic route was 32. P-126 keel was not intended for an amphibian role but simply for safety reason... Had the plane have some problem in the middle of the ocean, it would be possible to emergency land and wait for help.
 

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Skybolt

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Piaggio P-108C, i.e. he civilian transatlantic version of the P-108 is well know since it was actually build (protorype plus 5 series plane) and extensively sed, albeit for troop transport by the Luftwaffe.
There was cargo version, P-108T, which was exteriorly similar, a part a couple of self-defence machine gun turrets.
P-108C was intended to be pressurized but no pressurization was mounted on the plane produced. After the war Piaggio proposed a last evolution of the P-108 family, the P-108 T-2, fully pressurized and intended for mixed passenger/cargo transport. It differed by the war-time types in the nose (very Stratoliner looking...) and the engines, that could be of different tupes, from 1200 to 2000 HP each. The P-108T-2 could carry ten metric tons of cargo or 48/60 passenger (depending on sites arrangement) or a mix of the two.
 

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Skybolt

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After the 1938 FW-200 record non-stop fliights from Berlin to New York, Tokio, Hanoi, Kurt Tank, Chief-Designer of Focke-Wulf. tested the Lufthansa interest for an enlarged transatlantic-oriented version of the machine. Keep in mind that at that time FW was already busy with design-work on the Trans-Ozean project. The Tank's move probably was suggested by the desire of edging the company's bets on Lufthansa future contracts and by the opportunity to exploit the enormous publicity brought to the FW-200 by the record flights.
Anyhow, by first months of 1939 the structural design was ready and FW proceeded in building in his factory in Bremen a full scale mock-up of the cabin in which Lufthansa specialist started to work to find the best arrangements of the sites, the kitchen (flights were very long and at the time flyers' taste was more gourmand than today's ;D ) and other facilities. The cabin and the cockpit were to be pressurized. Start of the war slowed down the project, until Tank, who was very powerful politically, obtained after the "debacle" that the new aircraft development would be transferred to French firm SNCASO under the suprvsion of FW's Dipl.-Ing. Bansemirs. In so doing FW central offices and factories would be free to follow the war work. In SNCASO work proceeded very slowly and not much hade been done by the end of 1942, when the program was cancelled altogheter.
Engines were 4 in-line DB 603 rated at 1950 HPs each. FW 300 could tcarry 40 passengers plus 5 crew members.
In 1942 the RLM asked for a long-range maritime recon and U-Boot support with guided-weapons carrier capability FW responded with a version with Jumo 222 engine and a pressuriz capsule for the 8-men crew. This version was a competotor of the above mentioned military version of EF-100. This machine too was cancelled little later the purely civilian one.
Compared to the TO Project, FW-300 looks much less visionary and with less growth potential. If things would have gone normally, probably it would have been ready to flight before the TO, so Tank decision was probably right: first put a near term product in place and then bring the real competitor inline.
 

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joncarrfarrelly

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A different FW 300 drawing.

The FW 200 L, intended for a Berlin-Brazil run.

And a pair of projects from Junkers and Arado (full 3-views now):
The Junkers design was for a double-decker aircraft approximately 35m long with a wingspan of 44.5m.
The engines are unknown but the Jumo 211 or 213 are probably the likely choice.

The Arado was to be powered by four Jumo 208 Diesel engines, two in each nacelle.
Several variants were studied for both trans-Atlantic and European routes.

Cheers, Jon
 

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Kiwiguy

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Junkers EF-100. In the same 1940 Lufthansa sent out an RFP for a trans-ocean land-based airliner. Target was a payload of 20.000 kg on a distance of 9000 Km non-stop. Engines were six 2500 hps each Junkers Jumo 9-223 diesel. Cabin was pressurized and exploited the elliptical section to add some lift. Work was halted in 1941 od orders of RLM, only to be rresumed in 1942 to develop ea military derivative for long-range maritime recoinassance in support of U-Booten, only to be again cancelled at the end of the same year.

Skybolt, I think if you do a bit more research you will find you've made some fundamental errors about the EF100. The EF100 was actually in response to an RLM request for a long range patrol aircraft to reach "Amerika Falls" (ie US east coast) and return.

The four engined EF53 was the four engined airliner proposal of 1940/41 for an airliner to reach New York.

The six engined airliner which you've depicted in artwork is a projected development from the EF100 proposal as the Ju-390D.

The EF100 project was in fact a precursor to the Ju-390 design.
 
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joncarrfarrelly

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Kiwiguy said:
Junkers EF-100. In the same 1940 Lufthansa sent out an RFP for a trans-ocean land-based airliner. Target was a payload of 20.000 kg on a distance of 9000 Km non-stop. Engines were six 2500 hps each Junkers Jumo 9-223 diesel. Cabin was pressurized and exploited the elliptical section to add some lift. Work was halted in 1941 od orders of RLM, only to be rresumed in 1942 to develop ea military derivative for long-range maritime recoinassance in support of U-Booten, only to be again cancelled at the end of the same year.

Skybolt, I think if you do a bit more research you will find you've made some fundamental errors about the EF100. The EF100 was actually in response to an RLM request for a long range patrol aircraft to reach "Amerika Falls" (ie US east coast) and return.

The four engined EF53 was the four engined airliner proposal of 1940/41 for an airliner to reach New York.

The six engined airliner which you've depicted in artwork is a projected development from the EF100 proposal as the Ju-390D.

The EF100 project was in fact a precursor to the Ju-390 design.

Black Cross Volume 2 Junkers Ju 90 by Karl-Heinz Regnat(English translation of his 'vom Original zum Modell' volume on the Ju 90)
states that development of the long range reconnaissance version of the EF100 was begun after the airliner versions.
The work was carried out in the period 1940-42 and terminated in 1942.

EF100 drawing from Regnat attached.

Jon
 

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lark

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There is nothing wrong with Skybolt's info Kiwiguy..

The EF53 should have been early development of the EF100 project.
(caption with the illustration is wrong in Hugo Junkers,Pionier der Luftfarhrt- page 534)
The EF100 was conceived in late 1940 by Junkers on R.L.M.request.
The project was offered in 3 versions.

To awake interest in Luftwaffe circles ,later, a transportversion with nett.load 20.000kg/5000km range
was offered, but the Lagrange transport task was taken over by the BV-222.

Only in 1942,with the urgency because of the Battle of the Atlantic,the idea for a
long range recce.version came to light. Instead of a EF100 development, an enlarged
version of the Ju-290 was chosen.This became the Ju-390...

sources: Junkers Grossflugzeuge-H.J.Nowarra.Motorbuch-Stuttgart 1988.
Hugo Junkers ,Pionier der Luftfahrt und seine Flugzeuge-Bernard&Graefe 1996
Black Cross vol 3
 

lark

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... was doing two things at the same time when I wrote
this above... Lagrange must be long range.Sorry.
 

Justo Miranda

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From "Junkers Grossflugzeuge"-H.J.Nowarra.Motorbuch-Stuttgart 1988.
 

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boxkite

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I asked "Kennzeichen Junkers" by Holger Lorenz. Skybolt and Lark are right. In the beginning EF 100 was thought as an airliner - the idea of a military transport version was born later. Here are some impressions from the book, e. g. two shots from the inside of the mock-up.
 

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Skybolt

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BTW, If somebody out there is in possession or knows how to come in possession of the followings, it would be much appreciated..
1) Luftfarth-Dockumente n.3 Baubeschreitung der Focke-Wulf Fw 300 als mittleres Langstreckenflugzeuge, vom 22/10/1940.
2) Luftfarth-Dockumente n.13 Projektbeschreigung P 45 der Hamburger Flugzeugbau Gmbh fur eine Trans-Ozean Flugzeuge

And, thanks you all for the additions !
 

richard

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This may help ?
Must say ,it is too expensive :':)
21 pp ,
-one mock up pic (Same in Gütschow's "Flugboote" p 289 ),
-one 3 views (the same is in Nowarra's "Luftrüstung" Bd 1 ,p124 + Flugboote p290) ,
-11 sketchs,(one of them is in Flugboote p 290),3 more are at least for me interresting ,the other 7 are detail drawings


Here those 3 interesting pp



http://shop.ebay.de/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=Hamburger+P+45&_sacat=See-All-Categories
 

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Kiwiguy

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boxkite said:
I asked "Kennzeichen Junkers" by Holger Lorenz. Skybolt and Lark are right. In the beginning EF 100 was thought as an airliner - the idea of a military transport version was born later. Here are some impressions from the book, e. g. two shots from the inside of the mock-up.

That's not the point Boxkite... The EF100 was a response to an RLM request for proposals for a military maritime patrol plane able to reach "Amerika Falls" (in other words the East coast of USA) This RLM request has more commonly become known as RLM's Amerika Bomber requirement.

The EF100 led to the Ju-390A series and later it was proposed that the Ju-390 be developed into the Ju-390D six engined airliner.

The point is that the aircraft which most of you consider the EF100 airliner with a double bubble pressurised fuselage was actually envisaged as the follow on Ju-390D series to the maritime patrol aircraft in response to RLM requirements in 1942.

A friend of mine is a professional German translator for various books on the Luftwaffe involving several well known authors. He translated for Manfred Griehl: "Luftwaffe over America", (Greenhill Books 2005) This friend who is a rather private person advises me directly from WW2 source documents.

In October 1943 the suggestion of Major Hoffmann was acted upon to commence a series production of the Ju 390 without having prototypes beforehand. The first aircraft of the series would be used for the usual tests. Milch then ordered the Ju 390 series production without prototypes after Rechlin said they had no objections. This machine was demonstrated to Göring on 5 November 1943, and trials continued at Prague-Rusin.

Junkers company records disclose that the first Ju-390A was flown. It appears the Ju-390V2 was redesignated as a production Ju-390A aircraft and thus strictly speaking from the german perspective only one Ju-390 prototype was flown. This was what Ju-390 project pilot Flugkapitan Hans Joachim Pancherz told the British after the war, but wartime records suggest Pancherz fudged the issue to conceal the existence of a second Ju-390.

On 1 December 1943 the Luftwaffe Quarter Master General listed the first series aircraft Ju 390 V2 for October 1944. This machine would be available at the end of October, three more in November, five in December and so on into March 1946. Ju 390 V2 was expected to be ready by the end of September 1944 and flight tested in November. A report dated March 1944 indicates that Dessau was to turn out 26 Ju 390A, another report from May 1944 that Junkers had no less than 111 on the order book.

The Ju-390A was a transporter. The Ju-390C was proposed as a bomber, with an extraordinarily heavy gun armament including nose and tail turrets reminiscent of the Lancaster. RLM canceled the Ju-390 bomber project in September because the wing was not suitable for the higher speed and loads required of a bomber to evade fighters. The Ju-390 was surprisingly slow.

Because of the general situation, all work on the production was stopped in June 1944. On 29 June 1944 KdE Rechlin made a surprise announcement condemning the Ju-390 bomber aircraft as unsuitable for long-distance work because the wing loading would be too great for the intended payload (various other drawbacks were also recited).

Shortly before the termination of all work on the Ju-390 to free production for fighters Junkers received contracts in June 1944 to build Ju 390 V-2 to V-7, which paid for airframes already under manufacture, but this was likely done for accounting purposes.

I still maintain the airliner very eloquently described in all these plans and drawings was in reality the Ju-390D.
 

T-50

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what aboutthe Japanese Projects? I cant imagine that they haven't any projects of longrange airliners.
I hope someone have some info about Japanese airliner projects
regards T-50
 

Caravellarella

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Where did the nazi German planners think these airliners were supposed to fly to? Japan was surely too far away for a non-stop flight with a viable payload from Germany and all territories between ended up on the allied side. The designs show a interesting lack of sensible or even rational design compared to contemporary American airliners. Oddly enough the wartime French designers made some similar errors of judgement (like persisting with mid-wing layouts for drag-reduction)......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella said:
Where did the nazi German planners think these airliners were supposed to fly to? Japan was surely too far away for a non-stop flight with a viable payload from Germany and all territories between ended up on the allied side.

Keep in mind that these aircraft were designed in 1940 when dreams of a Greater German Empire or Das Gross Deutsche Reich were plausible. Remember that much of Europe, Norway, and North Africa was under the control of the Axis at the time. To illustrate, I have attached a map of world in December 1940. Western allies (blue), Soviet & allies (red) and Axis (black). With the exception of the defeat at the Battle of Britain, I presume that confidence was high that Germany would conquer additional territories and that the Axis would prevail in World War II. Wouldn't there be a boom in post war air travel throughout this territory served by German-built airliners and German airlines?
 

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agricola64

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aloo keep in mind that in 1940 a process already started, that was massively amplified in the later war yaers ..

many of the german aircraft projects existed mostly to keep the engineers and designers away from the army - and thus the design team intact ... as long as it was possible to confer the "kriegswichtig" status to as many of your employees as possible (preferebly more then your real enemies - the other greman aircraft companies) the better your situation as company would be after the war ..
 

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More information about the Fw-300
 

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Caravellarella

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Re: Piaggio-Casiraghi P-127 six engined airliner project......

Dear Skybolt, more on the "Secret Project" Piaggio-Casiraghi P-127 or "how not to design a fuselage for pressurisation"......

The cutting is taken from the 3rd January 1948 issue of Les Ailes......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Skybolt

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Thanks Carave, it's the semi-complete French translation of the article published some months before on "L'Ala" glorious old Italian magazine. I can reveal that the P-127 will be one of aircrafts illustrated on the ISP cover jacket... will be in full LAI livery (cream and blue with a tricolore band on the fuselage).
 

hesham

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Hi,


here is the Junkers EF.100 wing tunnel Model.
 

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Grey Havoc

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blackkite said:
Hi Horten Ⅷ.
Ho-VIII
Max take-off weight: 8000 kg / 17637 lb
Empty weight: 5000 kg / 11023 lb
Wingspan: 40 m / 131 ft 3 in
Length: 16.5 m / 54 ft 2 in
Height: 3.85 m / 12 ft 8 in
Wing area: 146 sq.m / 1571.53 sq ft
Max. speed: 280 km/h / 174 mph
Range w/max.fuel: 6000 km / 3728 miles
Crew: 3

This was to have been a flying model of a proposed six-engined trans-Atlantic passenger transport weighing 100,000 kg.
The span of Horten Ⅷ was to be 40 m with an aspect ratio of 10 and sweepback of 28 degrees. Power units were six Argus AS 10 C engines.
http://all-aero.com/index.php/contactus/34-planes/4965-horten-ho-viii



 

hesham

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Re: Piaggio-Casiraghi P-127 six engined airliner project......

Caravellarella said:
Dear Skybolt, more on the "Secret Project" Piaggio-Casiraghi P-127 or "how not to design a fuselage for pressurisation"......

The cutting is taken from the 3rd January 1948 issue of Les Ailes......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Again,the Piaggio P.127;

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala/L'Ala%201946%2007-8.pdf
 

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Grey Havoc

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The Do-212 was intended as a post war civil light transport. Though development could actually be traced back to 1938.
 

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Jemiba

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Grey Havoc said:
... was intended as a post war civil light transport. ....

That's hardly what we would call an "airliner", isn't it ?
 

Grey Havoc

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Thought Lufthansa operated a few Dornier 12 Libelle IIIs (the type the Do-212 was supposed to replace) on charter and non-scheduled flights pre-war?
 

hesham

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From Aviation Francaise 1947,

an artist drawing to P-127.
 

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Grey Havoc

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In Dan Sharp's magazine Hitler's Wonder Weapon Tailless Projects (Morton's Media Group, 2017) there is a few pages dedicated to the Horten VIII, a project launched during the war and left incomplete with large components lying around in a garage near Gottingen. The basis of this design was redrawn as a project for the British and was to be powered by six de Havilland Gipsy Queen 51 engines. Attachment as per the magazine. From the magazine, it resembles the Naranjero in layout and size, only with six engines, although unusually there is no mention of the Naranjero in the magazine.
 
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