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Italian Heavy Fighters

Maveric

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Hi all,

in 1939 in Italy was a contest for a Caccia-Comattimento (Heavy Fighter) in wich eight projects were entered:
1) Macchi M.C. 301
2) Caproni-Bergamasca Ca.350
3) Romeo Ro.67
4) Fiat C.R. 50 and C.R.55
5) Bellomo C.B.
6) Santangelo C.S.
7) Savoia-Marchetti S.M.91
We know the Ro.67 and the S.M.91. Skybolt will publish a book about Caproni aircraft. But for the other aircraft I search drawings and technical data. Can anybody help?

Servus Maveric ::)
 

Apophenia

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Maveric,

I'm assuming that Bellomo CB is for the generic "Caccia Bellomo". "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" has been used to describe the Macchi-Bellomo M.B.902. Presumably, "CB" and Giovanni Bellomo's Macchi project are the same thing (do you want a 3-view of the M.B.902?).

Ca.350 (start 1939) - all-metal two-seat fighter. Engine: 1 x 1250 hp Isotta-Fraschini Zeta R.C.42 engine. Max speed of 402 m.p.h.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2026.msg17631

pometablava listed the Ca.350 as the "forerunner of the Ca 335". The Ca.335 Maestrale led, in turn, to the Belgian Sabca S.47. For images, see:
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/interbellum/sabca_s_47.htm
[Note that the Ca.335 picture link at the bottom http://www.regiaaeronautica.it/aerei/Ca335.htm doesn't seem to work]

Specs for Ca.335/355 http://www.alatricolore.it/alatricolore/storici/c/caproni/ca335.htm

Rosatelli CR.50/CR.55? Hey, where's Tophe? ;D He postulated the CR.50/55 as twin-fuselaged G-50 and G-50V derivatives.
 

Maveric

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Hi Apophenia,

many thanks for your info´s. I´m a little bit confused with the Bellomo CB: are Macchi-Bellomo M.B.902 and Umbra M.B.902 the same?
I know the Ca.335/355 and the SABCA S.47.

Servus Maveric :-\
 

Apophenia

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Hi Maveric,

I should have said Bellomo's project with Muzio Macchi of Aeronautica Umbra.

As near as I can tell, the layouts for the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" and the more familiar Umbra M.B.902 differ but the drive systems closely related. Both had wing-mounted contra-rotating propellers shaft-driven by engines in the fuselage.

In the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo", the pilot sat between the two engines. In the more modern-looking Umbra, both engines sit, in tandem, behind the cockpit. I presume that the latter is an evolution of the former.

Added: engines DB601s I forgot to mention that the "Progetto Caccia Bellomo" appears to have upright V-12s. The drawing is very sketchy but I assume these to be Isotta Fraschini Asso XI RC.40s (they don't look big enough to be 18-cyl Asso 1000s). The final M.B.902 had inverted DB605s, of course.

You've probably already seen http://www.geocities.com/lucktam/italian.htm

"Progetto Caccia Bellomo" was modified from here
http://www.tgplanes.com/Public/Snitz/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=18153&TOPIC_ID=1553&FORUM_ID=1
 

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Skybolt

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Actually the list of Caccia Combattimento contenders is longer: there were two round of competition. In the first Caproni-Taliedo submitted some five different projects. As for the CR-50/Cr-55 and bis versions (w/o central nacelle), it is five years now that I'm looking for them... Nothing is in the public available archives in FIAT Turin. They are surely in the remote storage archives in Pescarito (small village near Turin), but they are closed to the public and to researchers. I'm currently looking in the archives of the Air Force in Rome (been there last Friday) but nothing till now (I've found the Caproni designs, instead...).
Giovanni Bellomo was an airman, like the more renown Santangelo, and his project was included in the winner's list by authority of the Vice-Minister of the Air Force. Problems was that no big company wanted to build it... Muzio Macchi wasn't principally a designer, he was the CEO of Aeronautica Umbra. Actually the Bellomo's concept resurfaced a couple of year later in very poorly known project by Alfa Romeo, using a big unconventional engine. This is off-topic, do you want me to tell the story ? :D
As for the Maveric's request, ok, I'll post some of the Caccia Combattimento projects...
 

Apophenia

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Skybolt said:
... Muzio Macchi wasn't principally a designer, he was the CEO of Aeronautica Umbra. Actually the Bellomo's concept resurfaced a couple of year later in very poorly known project by Alfa Romeo, using a big unconventional engine. This is off-topic, do you want me to tell the story ? :D
As for the Maveric's request, ok, I'll post some of the Caccia Combattimento projects...
Yes please! :) And thanks for the clarifications.
 

Skybolt

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Ok, but first another note on the CB. The engines originally spec-ed were DB-601s.
 

lucamax

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Dear friends,


I found the 3-views of the "Bimotore Santangelo" which I think it was a purpose for an heavy fighter (maybe the Santangelo C.S. of the topic, but I'm not sure about that). Unfortunately the picture was very very little and of bad quality, so I tried to enlarge a bit... Does someone have some info or better pictures about the project?
 

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MC72

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Time ago, I got some material of the Santangelo Sturmovino, characterized by its two engines "Monsone" license copy on the germn Daimler Benz DB-605 , Heavy armed with 2 guns and 3 machines guns
Saludos
MC72
 

Nick Sumner

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Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.

what does 'Sturmovino' mean?
 

lucamax

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Wow MC72! A superb work! Do you know if a wind tunnel model has been built, or the project remained only on papaer? Thanks a lot!
(PS: please teach me how to paint like you ;) )
 

airman

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I suppose the "Santangelo Sturmovino" design was referred to Caproni CR.50 -55 projects !
 

Apophenia

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Nick Sumner said:
Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.
Gaspare Santangelo was an engineer and one of the 'Guidoniani' -- scientists and engineers working for the Corpo del Genio Aeronautico (the Aviation Corps of Engineers, headed by Ten.Gen. Alessandro Guidoni). Under the Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze (DSSE) at Guidonia, concept design work was performed by the 'Guidoniani' including Santangelo. The results were then offered to industry.
 

MC72

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Nick Sumner said:
Forgive my ignorance - 'Santangelo' was that a designer, a design bureau, an aircraft manufacturer? It is new to me.

what does 'Sturmovino' mean?
Gaspare Santangelo was an engineer belonging to the ranks of the Regia Aeronautica
Sturmovino means small "Sturmovich"
I have some pictures of a wooden model of Santangelo not a wind tunnel model but an ingeniering mock up for general study,
 

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Nick Sumner

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Ok so the Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze (DSSE) at Guidonia was a bit like the Royal Aircraft Establishment in the UK or the DVL in Germany?
 

archipeppe

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MC72 said:
Time ago, I got some material of the Santangelo Sturmovino, characterized by its two engines "Monsone" license copy on the germn Daimler Benz DB-601 , Heavy armed with 2 guns and 3 machines guns
Saludos

Many thanks for such other precious drawing.


This the first time that I heard about this project, and in my opinion, it resemble more the Bf-110C "zerstorer" rather than any Russian "sturmovick"....
 

Aviostoria

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From: Italian civil and military aircraft 1930-1945 of Jonathan Thompson
MB.902
Designed by Ing. Bellomo, the MB.902 twin-engined, single seat heavy fighter had just entered the final stages of construction when the events of September, 1943, put a halt to its development, and the prototype was destroyed.
An extremely unorthodox design, the all-metal MB.902 mounted two 1.475 hp. FIAT RA.1050 R.C. 58 Tifone (license-built DB 605A) twelve-cylinder vee engines buried in the fuselage and driving twin contra-rotanting airscrews in the wings by extension shaft. This resulted in a well-stramlined airframe with the advantage of centralized firepower (two 20-mm. cannon and four 12,7-mm. machine guns) without the drag of engines nacelles. A further refinement was the tricycle landind gear.

Note of Aviostoria:
L'ing. Andrea Bellomo was Capitain of Regia Aeronautica. The project was private venture of Bellomo and the construction was assigned of D.G.C.A. at firm Aeronautica Umbra S.A. Costruzioni Aeronautiche e Meccaniche of Foligno.
 

Apophenia

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Nick Sumner said:
Ok so the Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze (DSSE) at Guidonia was a bit like the Royal Aircraft Establishment in the UK or the DVL in Germany?
Sort of. But, AFAIK, neither the post-Royal Aircraft Factory RAE nor the DVL actually designed aircraft. They may have initiated concepts (eg: the Ju 49) or designed components but not actual aircraft. Does anyone know differently?
 

MC72

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I found the Caproni Ca.380 Corsaro (Corsair); According to the competition was jointly selected with Savoia Marchetti SM.91 for more detailed assessments in Guidonia.
Also found more information about the Santangelo fighter, which has a really strong arms, like two powerful 47 mm guns with 35 proiectiles each or replacing it with a one Ansaldo 75 mm gun! References submitted by Gaspare Santangelo itself, in an interview for rvista "Aerotecnica" of 1946.
Saludos
MC72
 

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theponja

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Very interesting. Gracias MC72. The Savoia Marchetti SM.91looks great I've found more information about that one.
 

Skybolt

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Er, gentlemen, no. No competition between the Ca-380/1 and the Sm-91/92.
You'll find the complete story in ISP, but I can anticipate that:
1) SM-92 was a derivative, conceived in January 1942 of the Sm-88, then in development as a very fast light bomber. The idea was to suppress the central fuselage and locate the pilots in the left one. SM-92 was of metallic construction
2) SM-91 as flown (actually there were three different "SM-91" between 1939 and 1943) too is a derivative of the Sm-88 from late 1942 and was originally designated SM-88D (for "distruttore", destroyer, zerstorer), intended for series production as a night fighter and development with DB-603s. Metallic construction.
3) Ca-380/1 is a project from late 1942 and was intended as an autarchic heavy fighter, entirely built of wood. The idea was to duplicate the Mosquito. There was no apparent competition, even though there is a number of projects dated from mid-1942 that are similar in scope. For example, the Sm-94.
Turning to DSSE, as an istitution they actually designed aircraft (for example the Guidonia-II bomber), and their employees indulged in participating to official competition (Santangelo, thrice, and Bellomo, twice, notably) or advocating private ventures (Trigona, for example). Not surprisingly, both Santangelo and Bellomo "won" their competitions, but no company actually built their design. I can add that another official institution, the Research Bureau of the Ispettorato Superiore Tecnico Militare (ISTEM) designed aircrafts. ISTEM depended from the Regia's Chief of Staff Office, while DSSE was a directorate of Ministero dell'Aeronautica.
 

lark

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Glad to see you back on the forum Marco :)
Your expertise was dearly missed..
 

hesham

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Hi,


there is misunderstanding in Umbra MB.902 designation,there were two drawings,
one to Bellomo as CB or SCA.901,and the other is MB.902.
 

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lucamax

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The first design was the original draw of the Bellomo Fighter named C.B. (Caccia Bellomo) and the second was the final evolution of the same project but with heavy changes. In 1941 the program was given to AUSA (Aeronautica Umbra) and in the same year Bellomo started to modify his design. The final draw appeared in 1942 under the official name of MB 902.
 

lark

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Thanks for your clarification Lucamax..
 

hesham

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Hi,


for the Macchi MC.301,two prototypes,MM.438 & MM.439,but may be never
materialized.
 

hesham

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lucamax said:
Dear friends,


I found the 3-views of the "Bimotore Santangelo" which I think it was a purpose for an heavy fighter (maybe the Santangelo C.S. of the topic, but I'm not sure about that). Unfortunately the picture was very very little and of bad quality, so I tried to enlarge a bit... Does someone have some info or better pictures about the project?

Anther drawing to Santagelo C.S heavy fighter,note the rear gun of the canopy.


http://alternathistory.org.ua/tyazhelyi-istrebitel-ausa-mb902
 

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Apophenia

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Thanks Hesham. I'm finding the article linked to somewhat confusing. It implies that the Bombardamento Santangelo was offered first to Breda (who declined), then to Piaggion which was to build the BS as their P.125. But I was under the impression that the P.125 was to have been a heavy fighter.

Elsewhere, the article seems to be saying that the Societa Construzioni Aeronautiche received the production order for the the Bombardamento Santangelo (as the SCA/Ansaldo Bombardier). But no mention of who was to build the Caccia Santangelo.

Does that mean that the two GAri designers were in direct competition? The Caccia Bellomo was chosen to be built by AUSA as the MB.902, therefore no production for the Caccia Santangelo design?
 

hesham

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Apophenia said:
Thanks Hesham. I'm finding the article linked to somewhat confusing. It implies that the Bombardamento Santangelo was offered first to Breda (who declined), then to Piaggion which was to build the BS as their P.125. But I was under the impression that the P.125 was to have been a heavy fighter.

Elsewhere, the article seems to be saying that the Societa Construzioni Aeronautiche received the production order for the the Bombardamento Santangelo (as the SCA/Ansaldo Bombardier). But no mention of who was to build the Caccia Santangelo.

Does that mean that the two GAri designers were in direct competition? The Caccia Bellomo was chosen to be built by AUSA as the MB.902, therefore no production for the Caccia Santangelo design?

My dear Apophenia,


can you send this article,to be honest,I have no more info about Santangelo fighter,may be the
Italian members can help us.
 

Apophenia

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Hesham: My reference was to the 'alternathistory.org' link that you posted.
 

hesham

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Yes my dear Apophenia,


but we would like to know the complete story of it.
 

hesham

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Hi,


here is the expected drawing to Fiat CR.55 twin fuselage fighter project.
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
Hi,


here is the expected drawing to Fiat CR.55 twin fuselage fighter project.

The source;
http://aviarmor.net/aww2/projects/ita/fiat_cr55.htm
 

hesham

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Hi,


on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.


And we spoke before about Canova aircraft,PC140 & PC1500,here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg127170.html#msg127170
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19745.msg191432.html#msg191432


has anybody a more info about Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600 projects ?.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
Hi,


on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.


And we spoke before about Canova aircraft,PC140 & PC1500,here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg127170.html#msg127170
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19745.msg191432.html#msg191432


has anybody a more info about Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600 projects ?.

Here is the article about those two projects,no one heard about them before ?.
 

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GTX

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A pair found recently from the SIAI-Marchetti archives:

Savoia-Marchetti SM.91 heavy fighter prototype
Savoia-Marchetti SM.92 heavy fighter prototype in Luftwaffe markings.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


I think that I saw an info about Chiodi CH-2 in a magazine,but I don't remember its name
now ?.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
on 20 January 1936,the Air Staff asked for a multi-engine fighter/combat aircraft capable
to operate at 470 km/h,after elimination many aircraft and projects,such as Bonomi BS.25,
Jona J.10,IMAM Ro.53,Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600,they selected the Breda Ba.88
and Fiat CR.25.

And we spoke before about Canova aircraft,PC140 & PC1500,here;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg127170.html#msg127170
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19745.msg191432.html#msg191432

has anybody a more info about Chiodi CH-2 and Piana-Canova PC 1600 projects ?.

From a Russian book,


here is a small info about IMAM Ro.53 fighter project,who can translate ?.
 

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MC72

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Translation from russian


The work on the aircraft was used for reserve previously rejected project Ro.53 that somewhat simplified the task of engineers. Unlike other similar Italian machines development was one-place cabin, without any possibility of placing the rear rifle point. The design was produced by the classical scheme - wooden wings and a metal fuselage. Propulsion of two engines "Fiat" A.74 38 has a good total capacity that was to allow the fighter to reach a speed of at least 550 km/h. A little bit disappoint only weapons that co-stood just two 12.7 mm machine guns, section in the forward fuselage. Conceptually, and even outwardly the car resembled the British single twin-engine fighter "Whirlwind" the company "Westland", but "British" had a much stronger-in-equipment of four 20 mm cannon.
 

Maveric

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WOW, will be nice to see drawings of this one... :'(
 
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